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dewilson58 05-27-2022 10:53 AM

Oh ME oh my.

:ohdear:

Johnsocat 05-27-2022 10:58 AM

And when/if our government becomes truly tyrannical, have fun defending yourself with your five round clips and muzzle loaders...
The 2nd ammendment was ratified for a REASON. It specifically states that the right to bear Arms "shall not be infringed". The REASON is not to hunt deer, it is to defend Americans against it's own government. Yet, our government's (Fed, State and Local) HAVE "infringed" by creating gun laws.
We are NOT like Australia, Sweden, Germany, France, the UK or any other country. We have fought for, and died for, the freedoms granted us as Americans in our Constitution. The same Constitution our Military and Federally elected public servants swear to protect.
Guns and their availability are NOT the problem. Our morals, values and ethics are. Our country looks more and more like Sodom and Gamora everyday. Our family structures are broken, single parents, 2 working parents with latchkey kids.... very little time to instill traditional American values in those kids. Instead they are getting those values from a government school system which teaches them a political agenda and "wokeness". Participation trophies instead of good sportsmanship. Test teaching, which eliminates critical thinking skills. And more recently Critical Race Theory and Gender fluidity and identification. Politicians on your evening news have been incredibly nasty in their words, even suggesting people to get in other people's faces, kick them out of your places of business, citing half of Americans as deplorable, super predators, Nazis, dirty Walmart shoppers, homophobic, xenophobic, and many other names. Even talking about beating up the President "behind the barn". One even threatened a Supreme Court Justice saying he "won't know what hit him."
Is it any wonder (or coincidence) these kids are shooting up the schools?
You want to "fix" this problem? Find the root of the problem. HINT : it is NOT the guns nor gun availibility.

Johnsocat 05-27-2022 11:04 AM

Check out Chicago. Strict gun law, high gun violence...

blueash 05-27-2022 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckpedrey (Post 2099639)
American was founded on a Christian ethnic. It is the Christian Bible that the founding fathers based their lives on.

That is an insidiously wrong statement pushed by some of those of the Christian faith. This country was founded by a bunch of nearly agnostic men who wanted financial and political control over this territory. They had absolutely no disagreement with England over theological concerns and in fact were far LESS religious than the monarchy which claimed to derive its legitimacy from Jesus et al.

Jefferson removed all Jesus is God references from his Bible, actually cut those passages out with a knife. Our Constitution has exactly two references to religion and both strongly state that religious affiliation has no place in our governance.

The ethic of the founders was not rigid evangelical Christianity is was instead based on liberal ideology of natural rights as proposed by Locke and others. The founders were so against religious dogma determining United States governance that they made sure the Post Office, one of the few functions of the Federal Government at the time, operated on Sunday, you know the Christian day of rest and prayer on which you shall refrain from work and keep it holy, the Post Office functioned on Sunday the same as any other day of the week.

" In 1828, the Kentucky Senator Richard M. Johnson, chairman of the Senate Committee on the Post Office and Post Roads and a devout Baptist, declared any federal attempt to give preference to the Christian Sabbath to be unconstitutional. The line between church and state when it came to Sunday mail delivery, he argued, "cannot be too strongly drawn." "

No, what has happened is that once again the real history of the US is being subverted by many who wish to believe that what they now hold true was held true in the 18th century.
Thomas Paine called Christianity a fable. Many were simply Deists, a religious belief that a God does exist but that he [or she] is not actively involved in our day to day life and that "human experience and rationality—rather than religious dogma and mystery—determine the validity of human beliefs."

That was overwhelmingly the ethic of our founders and where it overlapped with the liberal Protestantism of the day, that was ok. Real history. You can look it up.

jebartle 05-27-2022 11:12 AM

LOCK ALL SCHOOL DOORS, one door entrance with metal detector, I don't care how much it costs, these are our children that need to be protected. Cost, the obnoxious amount spent on campaign funds, that we all ignore, can go toward this.

MartinSE 05-27-2022 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnsocat (Post 2099662)
And when/if our government becomes truly tyrannical, have fun defending yourself with your five round clips and muzzle loaders....

And at the time it was argued it was possible for a militia to use muzzle loaders to take back a rogue government.

I expect AR15's against the new XM5 will be found lacking. I expect 9MM against a M1 Abrams will be found lacking. On and On.

Are you suggesting citizens should have Cruise missiles? Why not automatic weapons? Why not F35's? After all, if the constitution - specifically the 2nd amendment - wants to be sure the populous can take back a rogue government , then it would seem to follow the citizens should be allowed to be equally armed.

Let's look at Ukraine - are we sending them civilian weapons? No, we are depleting our military arsenal because they do not have enough weapons locally capable of defending against a modern military.

So, unless you want access to Cruise, M1 Abrams, F35's and more, your argument is some what lacking.

I will completely agree there are many places in the US where a person may need a weapon to protect themselves and their loved ones. I have NO problem with that, or them. I question the need of a citizen to have 1,000 to 5,000 weapons stashed in the survival bunker. I question the need for a private citizen to own and M1 Abrams.

Do you?

Sarah_W 05-27-2022 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topspinmo (Post 2099571)
And that country would be overrun and taken over by men with guns. Majority of women are motherly and can not do what has to be done for protection of All. Now I agree for few cold blooded killers, but most are what we think of—- moms, nice, warm, and nurturing.

Interestingly, the fastest demographic buying firearms are women. Additionally, women make up a higher percentage seeking professional training in handling firearms. As a certified firearms instructor I am seeing this pattern. More women are also getting into the competitive shooting sports and I think that's great. I mentioned previously I'm the co-founder of the US Womens Shooting Academy. I've taken a woman who had never shot a handgun and after 7 lessons she was pulling from the holster in under a second and hitting a target at 21 feet. I will also note she didn't break a nail!

MartinSE 05-27-2022 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebartle (Post 2099667)
LOCK ALL SCHOOL DOORS, one door entrance with metal detector, I don't care how much it costs, these are our children that need to be protected. Cost, the obnoxious amount spent on campaign funds, that we all ignore, can go toward this.

It is already supposed to be, apparently it isn't always enforced.

Thank you for a suggestion. I place this in the we shall, as opposed the the loud voice of we shall not.

We shall gets things done, we shall not feels good and accomplishes close to nothing.

Trayderjoe 05-27-2022 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSE (Post 2099645)
Sorry

You left out my saying in my post that you were retired to provide ID, etc. In other words sates define who CAN NOT buy a gun, but many place no requirements other than things that mean you are NOT being allowed.

My post referenced Texas requirements for gun purchase as an example of one of the many you requested. And you left out/ignored the numerous testing, training and demonstrations of competency I listed, which does show it is much "harder" to get a gun than a drivers license, which is exactly what you asked for and then ignored.

As to proving many states, I used a state which is pertinent to THIS conversation as an example - Texas, I will leave it up to you to find the others that have more requirements.

Hint: I don't know of a single state that doesn't require some testing to obtain a drivers license - competency, vision, etc. - I know some states that require competency testing to buy a gun, but I don't think all do. All states require some kind of testing to prove driving knowledge (some will accept other states license as proof). So, I feel safe in suggesting it will not be hard to find that proof. I often get PMs complaining about too many references/links and too long posts. So, have fun, and if you go to the trouble to check all states and find no others or even fewer than half, I would be very interested. (But I am sure that will not happen).

I agree root cause is vital and in complex situations can take a long time to determine.

Many of the companies I worked for has issues with production lines that would cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars per hour to shut down and so that was NOT an option unless lives were at risk. It is possible to find and implement temporary "work arounds" or patches on live systems.

Are you suggesting we do nothing and just accept the death toll that is growing almost weekly for the past twenty years until we can determine with some level of certainty the root cause? I hope not.

And let me close this post bye saying thank you for the civil discourse and pertinent comments and questions. If more would do this we could make progress. It is possible, and you sir are proof.

Actually I did not leave out your quote, I missed it-big difference. If you normalize the two, then the difference between the two is as you indicated, one does have testing requirements (DL) and that purchasing a gun does not require training or testing.

However, your statement: "Compare the two. Obviously, Texas is very afraid of people driving on their streets, but if you want to kill children - no so hard". is inflammatory and does nothing to help move the needle forward. Is it a good idea to own a firearm and not get some sort of training? No, as tragic accidents can and do happen.

Do you think these monsters care If a training requirement is an impediment to acquiring a gun legally? They have already decided to break the law, so what is to prevent them from acquiring a gun illegally?

jimjamuser 05-27-2022 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive (Post 2099292)
"Let's return to the 1950s when guns were for hunting game and NOT HUNTING PEOPLE !!!!!!!"

The ethics and values of the 1950s were what prevented people then from what they are doing now. Guns were just as available then. Actually much more so: if you were over 18, in Minnesota at least, you could buy a gun. Or guns. My dad had a collection of well over 50 when he died. But if we EVER had school shootings back then, we certainly didn't hear about it.

We don't have a gun problem. We have a people problem. Fix the PEOPLE and forget about demonizing guns: it is just a convenient way to avoid facing the real issues.

Social tensions are MUCH greater today and also other tensions. Many people have reacted to this by stockpiling many rifles and pistols designed for WAR and to kill people ( you don't buy a 30-round clip to go deer hunting). This made the people feel safer, but mainly it made the Gun Manufacturers more PROFIT and wealth. So they put out propaganda advertisements in Gun magazines and the NRA journal to induce these people to buy MORE guns. In the last 2 years, civilian gun ownership went from a high of 300 million guns to a new high of 400 million guns.
.........More readily available guns equate to MORE gun deaths and crime. To understand how big and BAD the US situation has become - you just need to look at a chart comparison showing gun deaths per 100,000 citizens for ALL the world's countries. Ry far, the US has the MOST !

MartinSE 05-27-2022 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarah_W (Post 2099671)
Interestingly, the fastest demographic buying firearms are women. Additionally, women make up a higher percentage seeking professional training in handling firearms. As a certified firearms instructor I am seeing this pattern. More women are also getting into the competitive shooting sports and I think that's great. I mentioned previously I'm the co-founder of the US Womens Shooting Academy. I've taken a woman who had never shot a handgun and after 7 lessons she was pulling from the holster in under a second and hitting a target at 21 feet. I will also note she didn't break a nail!

Thank you for helping - seriously, and thank you for this post. I was not aware that women are the fastest growing demographic. I am glad to hear that too.

And finally, thank you for helping make more responsible gun owners. I completely support responsible gun ownership. I have no desire to own one, but I understand and respect responsible gun owners.

jimjamuser 05-27-2022 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Chipster (Post 2099297)
Our national addiction to guns, including assault rifles, is like a broken record. I am sick of the washed out debates and countless massacres, while congress does absolutely nothing. We all know what is the ONLY way this will change . . . elect a particular political party in enough numbers that will control Congress and finally bring sanity to this heartbroken country. Period.

Agreed

jimjamuser 05-27-2022 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2099300)
My solution is to manufacture only single shot or bolt action rifles and pistols for civilian use starting soon. Then Police can MELT down all semi-autos that they pick up in criminal hands. Also, Police could buy back semi-autos. Eventually, all weapons would be single shot or bolt action. It WOULD take a long time to get ALL semi-autos off the street. But, if you got 10% out of circulation in 5 years, it should lead to a 10% drop in mass murders. At least, that IS A WORKABLE SOLUTION. And it would take ZERO guns away from law abiding citizens, thus 2nd amendment protection.

A workable solution. Each side in the debate has to GIVE some. I don't want to take away any guns, except the obvious MAN-killers!

Johnsocat 05-27-2022 11:31 AM

We are unique in that our Constitution enumerates our right to bear Arms which "shall not be infringed" upon (which current laws actually do).
Other countries do not have our Constitution.

Sarah_W 05-27-2022 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSE (Post 2099653)
Uh, yes hypocritical, since we are told repeatedly in every one of these conversations that ALL OF THE murders of children take place in "gun free zones" - so, being gun free obviously will not stop shooters that want to shoot.

So, I respectfully disagree with you. For the Organization that pushes for NO restrictions on carrying guns ANYWHERE, to NOT allow guns while they discuss GUNS ANYWHERE is the perfect example of hypocrisy. (BTW, I thought the NRA was pushing for guns in colleges - schools. Another example of gun anywhere except at our meeting.

As stated by someone else previously, the only time the NRA says no guns allowed is when the Secret Service directs them to do so. I've been to NRA conventions while having my 9mm in my purse with no issues whatsoever.

MartinSE 05-27-2022 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe (Post 2099673)
Actually I did not leave out your quote, I missed it-big difference. If you normalize the two, then the difference between the two is as you indicated, one does have testing requirements (DL) and that purchasing a gun does not require training or testing.

Thank you

Quote:

However, your statement: "Compare the two. Obviously, Texas is very afraid of people driving on their streets, but if you want to kill children - no so hard". is inflammatory and does nothing to help move the needle forward. Is it a good idea to own a firearm and not get some sort of training? No, as tragic accidents can and do happen.
You are right, and I was wrong to use that inflammatory wording.

Quote:

Do you think these monsters care If a training requirement is an impediment to acquiring a gun legally? They have already decided to break the law, so what is to prevent them from acquiring a gun illegally?
I don't know. Ease of access? Why risk it. If these murderers could ONLY purchase from illegal sources, it would be "easier" to run sting operations to catch the illegal purchasers. But, as it stands now, they don't have too - and that is a point. Making it less easy will not deter responsible gun owners from buying, they will simply plan for it. But, someone wanting to murder children in two days may have to find an illegal deal and take the risk of it being a sting.

Not a cure, but a step - a little help.

Imagine if these shooters were captured, and offered plea deals to give up their seller or get the death penalty. Then the illegal seller is charged with murder and hung. It would certain not stop illegal sales but again every little step helps.

I saw a post early on in this thread that "at least he is dead, saves on the cost of the trail". I disagree with that. My personal favorite punishment for these murders would be publicly lowering them into a tree shredder feet first slowly. And stream the event on the Internet and require all OTA media to air live coverage with audio.


Not very liberal of me - is it.

billethkid 05-27-2022 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSE (Post 2099668)
And at the time it was argued it was possible for a militia to use muzzle loaders to take back a rogue government.

I expect AR15's against the new XM5 will be found lacking. I expect 9MM against a M1 Abrams will be found lacking. On and On.

Are you suggesting citizens should have Cruise missiles? Why not automatic weapons? Why not F35's? After all, if the constitution - specifically the 2nd amendment - wants to be sure the populous can take back a rogue government , then it would seem to follow the citizens should be allowed to be equally armed.

Let's look at Ukraine - are we sending them civilian weapons? No, we are depleting our military arsenal because they do not have enough weapons locally capable of defending against a modern military.

So, unless you want access to Cruise, M1 Abrams, F35's and more, your argument is some what lacking.

I will completely agree there are many places in the US where a person may need a weapon to protect themselves and their loved ones. I have NO problem with that, or them. I question the need of a citizen to have 1,000 to 5,000 weapons stashed in the survival bunker. I question the need for a private citizen to own and M1 Abrams.

Do you?

Why would anybody waste the time even thinking about an isolated case that no way in any way shape or form represents presence of ANY significance.

jimjamuser 05-27-2022 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spd2918 (Post 2099311)
The 2nd Ammendment is not about hunting or home protection.
It's about the people having the means to resist a tyranical government.

All "semi-automatic" means is the next bullet is loaded after the last is shot. A revolver loads the next bullet by trigger squeeze (or thumb cocking) and anyone with any skill can achieve the same rate of fire as an AR15. Besides, shooting fast means less accuracy, so it's a wash.

As for the New Zealand and Australia argument, they didn't have many mass shooting before confiscation. Australia did force people into quarantine detention during covid. They could because they did not fear an armed populace.

And the reason gun ownership is up is because people fear a tyranical government. When Seattle allowed a group of Communist thugs to take over the city, people bought guns. When those same Communist thugs laid seige to a Federal Courthouse in Portland, people bought guns.

I'm all for personal choice. If you don't like guns, don't buy one.

The best way to resist a tyrannical government is with VOTES, not bullets from man-killing semi-automatic rifles. In the rare case of say a Russian or Chinese invasion (tyrannical governments), they could be resisted with bolt action rifles nicely. Like in a Red Dawn movie - resistors could use a bolt action rifle to take over the enemy's automatic weapons. Anyway, a bolt action is a better long-range sniper rifle than a short range ASSAULT rifle.

MartinSE 05-27-2022 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnsocat (Post 2099678)
We are unique in that our Constitution enumerates our right to bear Arms which "shall not be infringed" upon (which current laws actually do).
Other countries do not have our Constitution.

ALL RIGHTS have limits and can be regulated.

Do you believe you should be allowed to own Nukes, Cruise missiles and M1 Abrams? Why not? That would certainly fit not being infringed on.

Taltarzac725 05-27-2022 11:42 AM

Nicely put about the 2nd Amendment. And I believe that in that period in US History they meant a well-regulated militia's Right to Bear Arms and not so much individual settlers and towns people. They were afraid that people still loyal to England might take up arms again or some despot might take over the government which had happened often in Roman history which many learned men read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSE (Post 2099668)
And at the time it was argued it was possible for a militia to use muzzle loaders to take back a rogue government.

I expect AR15's against the new XM5 will be found lacking. I expect 9MM against a M1 Abrams will be found lacking. On and On.

Are you suggesting citizens should have Cruise missiles? Why not automatic weapons? Why not F35's? After all, if the constitution - specifically the 2nd amendment - wants to be sure the populous can take back a rogue government , then it would seem to follow the citizens should be allowed to be equally armed.

Let's look at Ukraine - are we sending them civilian weapons? No, we are depleting our military arsenal because they do not have enough weapons locally capable of defending against a modern military.

So, unless you want access to Cruise, M1 Abrams, F35's and more, your argument is some what lacking.

I will completely agree there are many places in the US where a person may need a weapon to protect themselves and their loved ones. I have NO problem with that, or them. I question the need of a citizen to have 1,000 to 5,000 weapons stashed in the survival bunker. I question the need for a private citizen to own and M1 Abrams.

Do you?


retiredguy123 05-27-2022 11:43 AM

After watching several of the news conferences on the event, it seems to me that the media needs to hire more Monday morning quarterbacks. Not.

jimjamuser 05-27-2022 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueash (Post 2099666)
That is an insidiously wrong statement pushed by some of those of the Christian faith. This country was founded by a bunch of nearly agnostic men who wanted financial and political control over this territory. They had absolutely no disagreement with England over theological concerns and in fact were far LESS religious than the monarchy which claimed to derive its legitimacy from Jesus et al.

Jefferson removed all Jesus is God references from his Bible, actually cut those passages out with a knife. Our Constitution has exactly two references to religion and both strongly state that religious affiliation has no place in our governance.

The ethic of the founders was not rigid evangelical Christianity is was instead based on liberal ideology of natural rights as proposed by Locke and others. The founders were so against religious dogma determining United States governance that they made sure the Post Office, one of the few functions of the Federal Government at the time, operated on Sunday, you know the Christian day of rest and prayer on which you shall refrain from work and keep it holy, the Post Office functioned on Sunday the same as any other day of the week.

" In 1828, the Kentucky Senator Richard M. Johnson, chairman of the Senate Committee on the Post Office and Post Roads and a devout Baptist, declared any federal attempt to give preference to the Christian Sabbath to be unconstitutional. The line between church and state when it came to Sunday mail delivery, he argued, "cannot be too strongly drawn." "

No, what has happened is that once again the real history of the US is being subverted by many who wish to believe that what they now hold true was held true in the 18th century.
Thomas Paine called Christianity a fable. Many were simply Deists, a religious belief that a God does exist but that he [or she] is not actively involved in our day to day life and that "human experience and rationality—rather than religious dogma and mystery—determine the validity of human beliefs."

That was overwhelmingly the ethic of our founders and where it overlapped with the liberal Protestantism of the day, that was ok. Real history. You can look it up.

Perhaps the most impressive post that I have ever read on TOTV. It was very educational and well written. I rate it 3 Ks for triple Kudos!

Johnsocat 05-27-2022 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSE (Post 2099683)
ALL RIGHTS have limits and can be regulated.

Do you believe you should be allowed to own Nukes, Cruise missiles and M1 Abrams? Why not? That would certainly fit not being infringed on.

We are not talking about nukes, cruise missiles and tanks... we are talking about guns...
Disregard my point with semantics because that solves the problem under discussion?

MartinSE 05-27-2022 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billethkid (Post 2099681)
Why would anybody waste the time even thinking about an isolated case that no way in any way shape or form represents presence of ANY significance.

It is the use of extremes to prove a point. That fact that is relevant is that there are close to 400 Million guns in circulation. Less that 50 percent of the population owns a gun. About 5% of the population owns about 50% of those 400 million. So, 5% of the population (15 million people) own 200 million guns - or 15 million people own at least 15 guns each.

If you continue to refine the search, a very small percentage own hundreds of guns. And an even smaller percentage own thousands. But, they exist.

When I search for how many times have large caches of guns been found, there were 80 million hits. I didn't check all of them, I assume MOST are not relevant, most of them are duplicates, etc. But, it is NOT an isolated incident in this country.

Madelaine Amee 05-27-2022 11:57 AM

IT'S THE ASSAULT WEAPON STUPID! Nothing more/nothing less.

You can drone on all you like, but you cannot get away from the FACT that if the assault weapons were not available mass murders would be almost eliminated.

MDLNB 05-27-2022 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2099331)
The point is to compare the US gun violence to other countries' gun violence. That's the important point.


WRONG! Comparing our country to others is comparing apples to pumpkin pie. It's about time that "some" people start looking at their own back yard instead of over the fence at other folks pastures.

We have a very large land mass.
We have a large population
We have a very liberal PC system
We have much more freedom
We are individuals, not assimilated into one mind controlled by someone else
We have a very lenient justice system
We have many, many things that other countries do not, including an inferior education system, due mainly to "open minded" or fill in the blank_____ thought process, that has taken discipline away from the parent.
I could list many reasons, but to some it will always come back to "its the guns" because they do not know jack about guns or people and their nature.

jimjamuser 05-27-2022 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djean1981 (Post 2099410)
It's cultural. No God in schools and no daddy at home. Social media and device addiction. This is the result. Narcissists willing to kill for attention..

Do you then really believe that there is MORE God and less single-parent families in Australia ,, Germany, and ALL the other world countries - because they are WAY less likely to have gun violence than the US. That theory does NOT seem to pass the logic or statistical test.

MartinSE 05-27-2022 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnsocat (Post 2099688)
We are not talking about nukes, cruise missiles and tanks... we are talking about guns...
Disregard my point with semantics because that solves the problem under discussion?

NO, we are talking about (the post I replied to) the 2nd amendment specifically not allowing limitations or restrictions. I suggest that not allowing automatic weapons is a restriction, and if automatic weapons are allowed, then rockets should be allowed, and if rockets, then Cruise. And why not airplanes, and if airplanes why not F35s. And not allowing functional tanks is a restriction in my "right" to arm myself to take back my government with the wrong party wins the election.

My post was exactly on the topic it was replied to (if yours, I don't recall, but it was 2nd amendment and restrictions on gun ownership).

However, the constitution does not specifically say that Tanks and Warplanes are off the table. So by the recent leaked decision of the SCOTUS that rights are not rights, that are not enumerated are not rights. Therefore, there is NO restriction or limit on the right to bare arms. Seems a pretty straight forward extrapolation.

You can't have it your way, and n to allow me to have mine. If I want to own a Tank in what way does the government have the right to deny me that weapon of choice? Where does the constitution say - except for tanks.

MDLNB 05-27-2022 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2099336)
Better to visualize a semi-automatic HIGH-VELOCITY man-KILLING rifle with a 30 round banana clip (which SHOULD be illegal) At minimum, the clip should be illegal.


I never saw a 30 round "CLIP" but I have seen a 30 round magazine. Maybe the problem is that some folks don't know anything about the subject and make decisions based on flawed information. Maybe the information regarding police response is incomplete and we just don't know the details. Maybe we know nothing about that young ADULT's parents, or enough details about his mental condition.

Any way you look at it, it was not the fault of the guns used.

Like I said before, why penalize the majority for the acts of the minority?

MDLNB 05-27-2022 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madelaine Amee (Post 2099690)
IT'S THE ASSAULT WEAPON STUPID! Nothing more/nothing less.

You can drone on all you like, but you cannot get away from the FACT that if the assault weapons were not available mass murders would be almost eliminated.


Assault weapons????

Is my 22cal rifle an assault weapon? I can do as much damage with it as someone with an AR-15. My rifle is not automatic, but I can buy a fully automatic BB gun that can KILL without even registering it or going through a background process.



Like I said before and will continue to repeat it, it's not the gun, it's the person. A person drives under the influence and kills someone. Do they take away everyone's cars? Perhaps the car drive can drive 200mph, so should only fast cars be taken away from everyone else?

MartinSE 05-27-2022 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDLNB (Post 2099691)
WRONG! Comparing our country to others is comparing apples to pumpkin pie. It's about time that "some" people start looking at their own back yard instead of over the fence at other folks pastures.

We have a very large land mass.
We have a large population

If your point is population density, the US comes in around 100th place in the world. Otherwise, You will have to explain how population density or lack of it increases the number of children murdered in school.
Quote:

We have a very liberal PC system
We have much more freedom
We are not even in the top 10 countries for personal freedom.

Quote:

We are individuals, not assimilated into one mind controlled by someone else
I really had to pause and walk around a minute. !LOL!. Seriously, I can't even begin to estimate the thousands of times I have been told that me and people that believe like me (1/2 the population of our country) are mind controlled. Hmmm. Anyway, This goes back to the previous point you made, and which is not true, we are not even in 10th place for most personal freedom.

Quote:

We have a very lenient justice system
Hmm, okay, I would say "broken" not lenient. And it is broken to favor rich white guys.

Quote:

We have many, many things that other countries do not, including an inferior education system, due mainly to "open minded" or fill in the blank_____ thought process, that has taken discipline away from the parent.
You left off the "In my opinion". Many people will disagree with you - on content and causation.

Quote:

I could list many reasons, but to some it will always come back to "its the guns" because they do not know jack about guns or people and their nature.
Hmm. No comment. I will have to take another vacation.

Number 10 GI 05-27-2022 12:17 PM

When you don't have access to a gun, get a knife. In China the average subject, notice I didn't say Citizen, cannot own firearms.

Outside the Americas, Knives Are Often the Weapon of Choice in Homicides
More than 130 people in Kunming, China, were injured when about ten men and women wielding knives began stabbing others at random

Outside the Americas, Knives Are Often the Weapon of Choice in Homicides | Smart News|
Smithsonian Magazine


Back in the late 80's I read a report, that I can't find now, reported there were more knife homicides in Mexico than homicides by all means (guns, knives, bludgeons, fists, feet, motor vehicles, etc.) for the same time frame in the U.S.

MDLNB 05-27-2022 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSE (Post 2099668)
And at the time it was argued it was possible for a militia to use muzzle loaders to take back a rogue government.

I expect AR15's against the new XM5 will be found lacking. I expect 9MM against a M1 Abrams will be found lacking. On and On.

Are you suggesting citizens should have Cruise missiles? Why not automatic weapons? Why not F35's? After all, if the constitution - specifically the 2nd amendment - wants to be sure the populous can take back a rogue government , then it would seem to follow the citizens should be allowed to be equally armed.

Let's look at Ukraine - are we sending them civilian weapons? No, we are depleting our military arsenal because they do not have enough weapons locally capable of defending against a modern military.

So, unless you want access to Cruise, M1 Abrams, F35's and more, your argument is some what lacking.

I will completely agree there are many places in the US where a person may need a weapon to protect themselves and their loved ones. I have NO problem with that, or them. I question the need of a citizen to have 1,000 to 5,000 weapons stashed in the survival bunker. I question the need for a private citizen to own and M1 Abrams.

Do you?


When did the discussion get anywhere near what you are talking about? When did one person with something that resembled an AR-15 shooting up a school, suddenly morph into a discussion about owning a bunker full of guns or nukes?

ThirdOfFive 05-27-2022 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarah_W (Post 2099671)
Interestingly, the fastest demographic buying firearms are women. Additionally, women make up a higher percentage seeking professional training in handling firearms. As a certified firearms instructor I am seeing this pattern. More women are also getting into the competitive shooting sports and I think that's great. I mentioned previously I'm the co-founder of the US Womens Shooting Academy. I've taken a woman who had never shot a handgun and after 7 lessons she was pulling from the holster in under a second and hitting a target at 21 feet. I will also note she didn't break a nail!

My wife and I obtained our permits-to-carry in Minnesota some 15 years ago now. My wife hadn't fired a handgun much; maybe four or five times before we took the training. Training in Minnesota at the time was one day of classroom work, followed by a half-day at the range the following day. My wife's handgun was a .38 Special Taurus with a 1 7/8" barrel. Each student was required to fire a total of 50 rounds from various ranges.

She sort of stole the show. All the macho guy types with their Glock 17s and whatever else were often wildly inaccurate, while my wife calmly put bullet after bullet into the color, many of them inside the 10 ring. I recall our instructor took a look at her target, shook his head and said "I sure as hell don't want to be standing in front of HER".

MDLNB 05-27-2022 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSE (Post 2099650)
Sorry this is also a myth.

Many of the "founding fathers" were atheists. And the theists were often (mostly?) Puritans (Calvinist's and was based on the Holiness movement) that would never consider what we consider Christians to be Christians today. Women were little more than possessions, etc. Maybe you would like to start "testing" women charged with witch craft? They came here specifically to escape the Church of Englands persecution, and they could persecute anyone not toeing the line to their beliefs.

And if you want Christian beliefs in government, lets start with feeding the poor, giving housing to the homeless, forgiving those that transgress against us, not killing our enemies. You know all those pesky things Jesus told us to do, but evangelicals don't want to do, and instead refer back to the old testament and repeatedly quote the "thous shall nots" and not Jesus saying "thou shalt.

And another point, would you clarifying which Bible you want to make law, and which interpretation of it? Since there are over 200 Christian denominations in the US alone, and over 45,000 in the world.

And does the Pope get a seat in the Christian White House? After all, there are 1.5 billion Catholics and only maybe a 1/2 million Protestants (divided up between 45,000 different interpretations.)

So, I am just. curious, is it YOUR religion you want made law?

Now, could we get back to guns being used to kill children in class rooms for the past 20 years?

"Christians" make up in total about 20% of the worlds population. Yet, some how the other 80% of the world's population are not murdering their children regularly in schools. There are always the occasional wacko dictator, or rebels, or whatever that kills children or others. But, Only in America do we appear to endorse muting children in schools regularly. I say appear, since we have had 20 years to do something about it, and so far we can't agree on anything. 20 years...


Nice twist on the facts. Very articulate, but very erroneous too.

ThirdOfFive 05-27-2022 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueash (Post 2099666)
That is an insidiously wrong statement pushed by some of those of the Christian faith. This country was founded by a bunch of nearly agnostic men who wanted financial and political control over this territory. They had absolutely no disagreement with England over theological concerns and in fact were far LESS religious than the monarchy which claimed to derive its legitimacy from Jesus et al.

Jefferson removed all Jesus is God references from his Bible, actually cut those passages out with a knife. Our Constitution has exactly two references to religion and both strongly state that religious affiliation has no place in our governance.

The ethic of the founders was not rigid evangelical Christianity is was instead based on liberal ideology of natural rights as proposed by Locke and others. The founders were so against religious dogma determining United States governance that they made sure the Post Office, one of the few functions of the Federal Government at the time, operated on Sunday, you know the Christian day of rest and prayer on which you shall refrain from work and keep it holy, the Post Office functioned on Sunday the same as any other day of the week.

" In 1828, the Kentucky Senator Richard M. Johnson, chairman of the Senate Committee on the Post Office and Post Roads and a devout Baptist, declared any federal attempt to give preference to the Christian Sabbath to be unconstitutional. The line between church and state when it came to Sunday mail delivery, he argued, "cannot be too strongly drawn." "

No, what has happened is that once again the real history of the US is being subverted by many who wish to believe that what they now hold true was held true in the 18th century.
Thomas Paine called Christianity a fable. Many were simply Deists, a religious belief that a God does exist but that he [or she] is not actively involved in our day to day life and that "human experience and rationality—rather than religious dogma and mystery—determine the validity of human beliefs."

That was overwhelmingly the ethic of our founders and where it overlapped with the liberal Protestantism of the day, that was ok. Real history. You can look it up.

It is pretty well accepted among academics that our system of government is based on the English system of common law, which itself is based in large part on the Judeo-Christian ethic.

Sarah_W 05-27-2022 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2099674)
Social tensions are MUCH greater today and also other tensions. Many people have reacted to this by stockpiling many rifles and pistols designed for WAR and to kill people ( you don't buy a 30-round clip to go deer hunting). This made the people feel safer, but mainly it made the Gun Manufacturers more PROFIT and wealth. So they put out propaganda advertisements in Gun magazines and the NRA journal to induce these people to buy MORE guns. In the last 2 years, civilian gun ownership went from a high of 300 million guns to a new high of 400 million guns.
.........More readily available guns equate to MORE gun deaths and crime. To understand how big and BAD the US situation has become - you just need to look at a chart comparison showing gun deaths per 100,000 citizens for ALL the world's countries. Ry far, the US has the MOST !

I don't think anyone makes a 30 round clip. Frankly, I don't know if any modern rifles even utilize a clip.

Ironically, when Democrats start chanting about gun control the demand for guns and ammo rises dramatically. Introduce a pandemic and force people to stay home for lockdowns created the huge surge in ammo sales along with millions of first time gun buyers entering the market.

MartinSE 05-27-2022 12:33 PM

I would like to posit another point on guns. Why are illegal guns so available? Why are so many poor teens buying guns? I suggest our wonderful failure - WAR ON DRUGS. A young poor kid (not this one) looking at a life of poverty or flipping burgers and comparing that to a life with fast cars and women and all they have to do is sell drugs on street corners and get rich. The life may be short, but it will be fun!

Selling drugs provides the funds to buy these no so inexpensive guns. How many poor teens could drop out of school and buy a Luger or AR15 and ammunition? It is the street sales of illegal drugs that funds it. And the guns are simply a tool needed in that line of business.

That is the seed (root cause in my humble opinion). That then leads to all the evils we hear about is large cities - you never hear about a gang doing drive by battings.

Legalizing all drugs will eventually eliminate that entire source of funding for purchasing and using guns by teens and all the crime and deaths caused by them. And it would eliminate all the Billions of dollars we spend on the endless useless Drug War. It would eliminate a large source of income for Drug cartels.

The only down side would be addicts, and the crime, medical and other costs related to that. And other countries have shown that those costs are more than offset by taxing the drug sales.

I propose that one step in stopping gun violence would be to legalize and tax all drugs. Not perfect, it won't stop all gun violence, but I think it is pretty obvious that it would eliminate most.

ThirdOfFive 05-27-2022 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2099674)
Social tensions are MUCH greater today and also other tensions. Many people have reacted to this by stockpiling many rifles and pistols designed for WAR and to kill people ( you don't buy a 30-round clip to go deer hunting). This made the people feel safer, but mainly it made the Gun Manufacturers more PROFIT and wealth. So they put out propaganda advertisements in Gun magazines and the NRA journal to induce these people to buy MORE guns. In the last 2 years, civilian gun ownership went from a high of 300 million guns to a new high of 400 million guns.
.........More readily available guns equate to MORE gun deaths and crime. To understand how big and BAD the US situation has become - you just need to look at a chart comparison showing gun deaths per 100,000 citizens for ALL the world's countries. Ry far, the US has the MOST !

Actually that would be Honduras, with a per-capita gun death rate of 60 per 100,000. The US rate per capita is 12.21 gun deaths per 100,000--barely 20% of that of Honduras. (World Population Review website, "Gun Deaths by Country 2022").

MartinSE 05-27-2022 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarah_W (Post 2099706)
I don't think anyone makes a 30 round clip. Frankly, I don't know if any modern rifles even utilize a clip.

Ironically, when Democrats start chanting about gun control the demand for guns and ammo rises dramatically. Introduce a pandemic and force people to stay home for lockdowns created the huge surge in ammo sales along with millions of first time gun buyers entering the market.

Very true, when Obama was elected sales skyrocketed. And his "coming for your guns" never happened.

I will not address the "Dems" part, because, I would prefer to not take another vacation too soon. Let's just say that as a liberal democratic socialist, Dems are embarrassing to me. They say the stupidest things.


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