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There have been studies with results on both sides of the issue. Depending on what "expert", there is a link, there is not a link. :shrug: :mornincoffee: |
Tragic but...
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If making guns illegal would actually work I would be 100% in favor of it. Let's try making DRUGS ILLEGAL first so that there are no drug issues and see how well that goes. |
Guns cant shot them selves some one has too pull the trigger. Take away guns -if they want to kill they do so another way , baseball bats, cars knives . anything/. We had a killer drive into a parade, In New york they push you in front of a on coming train. We need to have stable families and teach respect. Bring GOD back into the schoo;ws
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Other than you, show posts of people making suggestions (other than taking away cars) Quote:
Thank you that is actually a suggestion that we CAN do. Wanna bet we will be told why it won/t work instead of joining in to get it done? Quote:
Let's take the one that pertains to this thread - Texas: How to Apply for a Texas Driver License | Department of Public Safety To get a Drivers license: The Department issues driver licenses valid for up to eight years to Texas residents 18 years of age and older. The Texas Driver’s Handbook is available online to help you qualify for a Texas driver license. You will need to provide proof of the following to apply for a driver license: * U.S. Citizenship or, if you are not a U.S. Citizen, evidence of lawful presence * Texas Residency * Identity, and * Social Security Number * Evidence of Texas Vehicle Registration* for each vehicle you own. Registration must be current. Visit Texas DMV vehicle registration for more information (New Residents who are surrendering an out-of-state driver license only) * Proof of Insurance* for each vehicle you own * If you do not own a vehicle, you will sign a statement affirming this. Additionally, you will need to provide evidence of completion of: * Impact Texas Driver (ITD) if you will be taking a driving test for the issuance of your driver license** * A six-hour adult Driver Education course, if you are 18 through 24 years of age (Does not apply to new residents who are 18 years of age or older and surrendering a valid, unexpired out-of-state driver license) * Once you have gathered the necessary documents and completed the required courses, you will need to do the following: * Complete the driver license application before arriving at your local office (This form is also available at all driver license offices). * Make an appointment at a driver license office. * Provide the following documentation to the license and permit specialist: * Application for the issuance of a driver license * U.S. Citizenship or, if you are not a U.S. Citizen, evidence of lawful presence * Identity, and * Social Security Number * Provide your signature for DL or ID. * Provide your thumbprints. * Have your picture taken. * Pay the application fee. * Pass the vision exam. * Take and pass the knowledge and driving tests. You may complete the testing requirements at the DL office by scheduling an appointment online or through a Third Party provider. Read about testing in other languages and driving test requirements. Now, what are the requirements to buy a gun in Texas? Buying - Gun Laws - Guides at Texas State Law Library I won't copy it here, because almost all that is there are links to explain who CAN NOT purchase a gun (felons, etc) but the only topic listing a requirement is AGE. One Retirement - AGE. Nothing about things you have to do - testing, training, demonstrating competence, etc etc etc. (they left off affording it) Compare the two. Obviously, Texas is very afraid of people driving on their streets, but if you want to kill children - no so hard. If you want, you can eliminate any duplicates from the two lists (US Citizenship, Texas resident, etc.) Drivers license still wins by a mile. Quote:
But, I don't know about any one else, but I can walk and chew gum at the same time. So, why not implement mitigation techniques while we try to determine the WHY so we can solve it. Why not look for low hanging fruit that we can all agree on and implement while the brainiacs look for how to solve societies cultural issues. And yes, but is SOMETHING is broken in the US, since this is a uniquely US problem. |
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Let's Get Everyone
Auto manufacturers for fast cars
Civil Engineers for dangerous highway designs. Dairy farmers for air pollution and high cholesterol. And on and on. Yeah last but not least the supreme designer of the perfect human. |
We geezers certainly do have all the answers--even if most of those answers contradict the answers of others. But not only do we solve nothing, for the most part we cannot even really define the problem. Mostly we just fall back on our prejudices.
Sometimes it pays to get closer to the source. I had a conversation with my granddaughter some time ago, really about social skills but applicable here too. Her statement? "The reason that so many people of my generation are such total losers socially is because they never really learned HOW. Their "socialization" is social media". That deserves some careful pondering, from a couple of aspects. Social media in some part (large part?) has become a surrogate parent to kids since--oh--the mid 1990s or so. A kid behind a screen can be anything he or she wants to be, and convince others that he is who he portrays himself as being. He's rarely if ever in personal contact with many of those online "friends" so he doesn't worry too much about being outed as a phony. His world probably--and social life certainly--are words on a screen. Personally he may be someone who other kids pick on, or who lags behind in school, or whatever. But he doesn't have the social skills to deal with those issues in person, so he just hides from them while building up his social media persona. Couple that with the fact that no matter how far out or bizarre someone's ideas are, he or she can find uncountable sources on the internet that agree with his ideas. He doesn't discuss them in person with the people he encounters in daily life but he DOES discuss them with like-minded people on social media. He's not looking for information so much as validation (a common problem, even among us geezers), and he finds it. Doesn't matter how far out. The world is flat--people of one religion drink the blood of the children of another--One race will eliminate another race unless people who believe like HE believes intervene, etc. etc. His socialization is mainly with people with beliefs equally or even more bizarre than his. The REAL world--the world of face-to-face interactions with peers, practicing the skills needed to get along in daily life, knowing what to say and what not to say, becomes less and less important. It is a bad confluence of negativity. It is a bomb, in some cases, primed to go off. Okay. Factor #2. A kid growing up in America today is taught to FEAR guns. Guns are EEEEEEVIL. Guns are SCARY. Only BAD people have guns. He hears it (if he hears anything) incessantly about it in school. So--here we have an insecure, alienated kid, saturated with bizarre ideas, who buys, borrows or steals a gun. His online persona portrays him as a swaggering bad guy. He takes the gun and becomes that guy. Maybe he only wants to scare people (how many kids bring guns to school just to show other kids?). Maybe his bizarre ideas and viewpoints dictate that violence is the answer to whatever his twisted mind tells him the problem happens to be. And the bomb goes off. It is no coincidence that the rise in these school shootings parallels the rise in social media usage, and even more precisely, the lack of effective parenting in lieu of the kid living on social media. They're not taught much else--at least not much else that sticks. An alienated kid or young adult filled with bizarre ideas is a catastrophe waiting to happen. And in all too many cases, it does. Okay. Even if the admittedly-dramatized scenario above is largely true (and I believe, generally, that it is) just knowing it does not solve the problem. It all goes back to the parents BEING parents, teaching their kids proper socialization and just plain HUMAN interaction, and monitoring the poison that they all too often find on the internet. Banning or limiting guns is not the answer (though I believe that there are a lot of things we can do to minimize the possibility of school shootings). It will probably take as long to fix this problem as it did to create it in the first place. But until we fix the FAMILIES, this problem will remain. |
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I will assume you are neither of those, and I know I am not. So, can we stop with the BAN GUNs argument. It is just noise and accomplishes nothing. Anyone with an IQ higher than a rock knows it will not work. |
Move!
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People living in the suburbs and cities were also taught to fear guns. At least in the cities and suburbs where I grew up. In the more rural areas, everyone had a rifle near the back door to chase off coyotes and bears. But you NEVER heard anything about that, on our side of the county. Why? Because there were no coyotes and bears on our side of the county. We had no need for guns. In our area, the purpose of guns was to shoot people. And civilized people simply didn't DO that. No - the only people who shot other people were criminals, and cops who chased down criminals. In our part of free America, we were free to not NEED guns. It was an idyllic upbringing, FREE from crime, FREE from violence, FREE from the need to regulate a thing. We were self-regulating. Sadly - that idyllic free society has become more and more isolated from the rest of the country. But blaming it on the current batch of kids being afraid of guns just can't possibly be true. Because if it were true, and 18-year-old kid wouldn't have used one to kill 19 other kids this week. |
Interesting that these other countries all have people with mental health issues but don’t have the problems we do with gun violence. We certainly need to focus on stricter gun laws!
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I do not accept your daughter as a expert in the problems of America. Sorry, but you start saying how people are just expressing their opinions and then expressed yours and your daughters (and you seemed to present your daughter as a expert witness in sociology. And, I would suggest that social media, video games, et al, are just as prevalent around the world as they are here, yet, 4% of worlds population accounts for 99.9% of the class room murders. If you want an opinion, the gun rights argument is the root of the problem. It is used to scare gun owners into hating people that want to stop th murder children. Listening to the "gun rights" extremists, it seems they don't think children live are as important as shooting deer or blowing up water melons. Now, that was OVER THE TOP on my part. Which I did very intentionally to explain why people that want to solve the problem are so frustrated. Imagine, mass murders will just take cars and drive then into the school to kill children if that is what they want to do. |
Check your facts
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Universal background checks, RE-classifying AR-15s as assault weapons (that's how they were, before they were DEclassified as assault weapons), and banning same-day sales of firearms at gun shows (because of the universal background check requirement) would be a good start. |
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Give me a break, at least have enough compassion to be sensible. Yes, people who want to kill will find a way to kill - guns just make it easier and more efficient. Maybe there is a reason the pentagon is not shipping a massive amounts of bats to the Ukraine. |
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Only some states have regulations requiring private sales go through licensed dealers. It isn't a universal thing. That's why people are pushing for universal background checks. Universal meaning - anyone selling a firearm needs to run a check on their customer or they are violating the law. |
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And I COMPLETELY agree with you. ANYONE that sells a firearm that is then used to murder someone should be charged with accessory to murder. |
"If you take away their guns they will just use bats".
Question, why is the pentagon not sending more bats to the Ukraine. |
How about instead of arming teachers that don't want it and are not competent, let's give all the kids 9mm handguns when they get to school. Replace the library with a shooting range and have them check them back in when they go home.
What could go wrong with a class full of 9 year olds armed with 9mm's. After all I don't recall any age limits on the 2nd amendment. Even this 18 year old murderer would not be crazy enough to go into a room full of armed 9 year olds. |
I don't think the right to bear arms should include Uzzi's, AR rifles etc. and being so easy to get for a newly18 year old. It wouldn't fix everything but might cut down on MASS shootings and police waiting an hour for backup
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I don't buy it, but it was at least a reason I could understand some people feeling strongly about. There are studies in history that show one of the first steps of an autocrat is to take away peoples guns. Hence all the claims Obama was "coming for our guns" - even though more guns were sold under Obama than under Bush and no one ever reported having feds come take their guns away. Just saying. |
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In addition, the doctor patient confidentiality should be considered, and healthcare professionals should be required to check a box saying, "recommended for gun purchase" or "not recommended for gun purchase". That keeps the why private, but could help with background checks. Of course, that has problems too - like a doctor doesn't want ANYONE to get guns, or a doctor wants EVERYONE to get guns. etc. etc. etc. No solution is perfect. |
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U.S. Citizenship or, if you are not a U.S. Citizen, evidence of lawful presence. Texas Residency Identity and Social Security Number So BEFORE you can even buy a gun in Texas, you have to either meet the requirements of a driver's license or have lawfully obtained a Texas State ID. THEN you still need to pass a FEDERALLY required background check if purchasing from a gun dealer as this killer did. Oh and by the way, my original request still stands, please provide proof that it is easier to buy a gun legally than to get a driver's license "in many states". The Texas example doesn't work. Quote:
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American was founded on a Christian ethnic. It is the Christian Bible that the founding fathers based their lives on.
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My post referenced Texas requirements for gun purchase as an example of one of the many you requested. And you left out/ignored the numerous testing, training and demonstrations of competency I listed, which does show it is much "harder" to get a gun than a drivers license, which is exactly what you asked for and then ignored. As to proving many states, I used a state which is pertinent to THIS conversation as an example - Texas, I will leave it up to you to find the others that have more requirements. Hint: I don't know of a single state that doesn't require some testing to obtain a drivers license - competency, vision, etc. - I know some states that require competency testing to buy a gun, but I don't think all do. All states require some kind of testing to prove driving knowledge (some will accept other states license as proof). So, I feel safe in suggesting it will not be hard to find that proof. I often get PMs complaining about too many references/links and too long posts. So, have fun, and if you go to the trouble to check all states and find no others or even fewer than half, I would be very interested. (But I am sure that will not happen). Quote:
Many of the companies I worked for has issues with production lines that would cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars per hour to shut down and so that was NOT an option unless lives were at risk. It is possible to find and implement temporary "work arounds" or patches on live systems. Are you suggesting we do nothing and just accept the death toll that is growing almost weekly for the past twenty years until we can determine with some level of certainty the root cause? I hope not. And let me close this post bye saying thank you for the civil discourse and pertinent comments and questions. If more would do this we could make progress. It is possible, and you sir are proof. |
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Any business can put a sign on their door that says no guns allowed and it has to be honored. I'm not sure the point of that considering that guns are not allowed on school grounds and mass murders don't obey those requirements and kill innocent children. Signs will not stop mass shootings. |
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Many of the "founding fathers" were atheists. And the theists were often (mostly?) Puritans (Calvinist's and was based on the Holiness movement) that would never consider what we consider Christians to be Christians today. Women were little more than possessions, etc. Maybe you would like to start "testing" women charged with witch craft? They came here specifically to escape the Church of Englands persecution, and they could persecute anyone not toeing the line to their beliefs. And if you want Christian beliefs in government, lets start with feeding the poor, giving housing to the homeless, forgiving those that transgress against us, not killing our enemies. You know all those pesky things Jesus told us to do, but evangelicals don't want to do, and instead refer back to the old testament and repeatedly quote the "thous shall nots" and not Jesus saying "thou shalt. And another point, would you clarifying which Bible you want to make law, and which interpretation of it? Since there are over 200 Christian denominations in the US alone, and over 45,000 in the world. And does the Pope get a seat in the Christian White House? After all, there are 1.5 billion Catholics and only maybe a 1/2 million Protestants (divided up between 45,000 different interpretations.) So, I am just. curious, is it YOUR religion you want made law? Now, could we get back to guns being used to kill children in class rooms for the past 20 years? "Christians" make up in total about 20% of the worlds population. Yet, some how the other 80% of the world's population are not murdering their children regularly in schools. There are always the occasional wacko dictator, or rebels, or whatever that kills children or others. But, Only in America do we appear to endorse muting children in schools regularly. I say appear, since we have had 20 years to do something about it, and so far we can't agree on anything. 20 years... |
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No, considering ALL other countries in the world. The US is the ONLY country that regularly (every week now?) allows children to be murdered while in class for the past 20 years. Apples and Apples. Australia had one, back in the 1990's, they banned guns. It didn't solve ALL the gun violence, but they don't have a recurring problem with children being murdered in class. (I don't think they have had ANY since that one). Great Britain had one in 1996, they passed laws banning most guns, guess what, no more mass murders in schools. |
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So, I respectfully disagree with you. For the Organization that pushes for NO restrictions on carrying guns ANYWHERE, to NOT allow guns while they discuss GUNS ANYWHERE is the perfect example of hypocrisy. (BTW, I thought the NRA was pushing for guns in colleges - schools. Another example of gun anywhere except at our meeting. |
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