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Topspinmo 05-27-2022 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSE (Post 2099354)
Social media and and video games exist around the world. So, nope not the cause. And btw, correlation does not equal causation. There is NO, ZERO, ZIP evidence that either CAUSE mass shootings.

Please quote that. Or it’s just you’re opinion from the opinion piece you read it from.

jimbomaybe 05-27-2022 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSE (Post 2099546)
By that definition the only free person is an anarchist.

Do you stop at stop signs? Why?
Do you drive on the right side of the road? Why?
Do you not use an outhouse in the city? Why?
Do you not rob banks? Why?

The list of "freedoms" we give up in the name of being civilized is almost endless. So, I say that is a wonderful sounding sound bite, and has absolutely NOTHING to do with real life.

I also make the assumption that the "freedoms" you don't want to give up, are not the same as the ones I don't want to give up, but my freedoms are not as important as yours.

It doesn't have anything to do with real life,, until it does, perhaps your ability to post/respond should be terminated, they are too discordant, inflammatory inciting to others, The ministry of truth will sort out your postings, remember the proposed "Fairness Act" will the ministry of State Security have to "interview " you? The problems we now face were not a problem previously , fifty years before Columbine it happened that some armed robbery teams would carry unloaded weapons, if one member killed somebody Everyone involved had a date with Sparkey, appeals did not take years , unless you had a very good reason they just were not heard. it was a matter of "personnel responsibility " people haven changed, our enlighten manner of dealing with problems has

dewilson58 05-27-2022 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topspinmo (Post 2099561)
Please quote that. Or it’s just you’re opinion from the opinion piece you read it from.

Actually he/she might be able to produce a quote.
There have been studies with results on both sides of the issue.
Depending on what "expert", there is a link, there is not a link.
:shrug:

:mornincoffee:

Diverdave 05-27-2022 08:29 AM

Tragic but...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jebartle (Post 2098784)
19 innocent children, 2 dedicated teachers, lives lost, solution????? More guns, bigger prisons, NOT. Japan, no guns unless police and military, murder rate .3 percent per 100,000, America, 4.7 per 100,000. Mental health wake up call.

I can't begin to understand the pain that the.friends and family of those lost to this horrible act of evil. But trying to ban guns is not the best way to stop this. If a person has evil intent they will find a way to do evil. 9/11 required no guns, just a couple of box cutters. The Boston marathon killings were done with pressure cookers. People have been run down at parades by trucks. Cain slew Able with a rock. Prosecute the guilty, identify troubled youth and get them help, protect yourself and your loved ones by being ready and able to defend yourself.
If making guns illegal would actually work I would be 100% in favor of it. Let's try making DRUGS ILLEGAL first so that there are no drug issues and see how well that goes.

Cyndee@twc.com 05-27-2022 08:29 AM

Guns cant shot them selves some one has too pull the trigger. Take away guns -if they want to kill they do so another way , baseball bats, cars knives . anything/. We had a killer drive into a parade, In New york they push you in front of a on coming train. We need to have stable families and teach respect. Bring GOD back into the schoo;ws

Topspinmo 05-27-2022 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2099411)
You have a very convincing style of writing, very confident. I am truly impressed. I would love to have a country where only women could own guns because it is based on a STATISTICAL FACT - and would be a real solution - I would even vote for it if it was on a referendum bill. My opinion IS also based on a STATISTICAL FACT.......that we are an outlier amount all countries of the world and # 1 in mass murders and gun deaths. It JUST CAN'T be some COINCIDENCE that we ALSO have the MOST availability of guns in the world.
.........And I would also say that the genesis of the problem was when the Gun Manufacturers and their propaganda machine AKA the NRA decided that "GREED IS GOOD"..........around 1999

And that country would be overrun and taken over by men with guns. Majority of women are motherly and can not do what has to be done for protection of All. Now I agree for few cold blooded killers, but most are what we think of—- moms, nice, warm, and nurturing.

Sherry8bal 05-27-2022 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebartle (Post 2098784)
19 innocent children, 2 dedicated teachers, lives lost, solution????? More guns, bigger prisons, NOT. Japan, no guns unless police and military, murder rate .3 percent per 100,000, America, 4.7 per 100,000. Mental health wake up call.

You can blame the libs on this one. It's NOT the guns that kill, it's the people and/or nut jobs behind them. I'm sick of "mental health" calling. These kind of people need long, long prison terms but they don't want to do that. It's like revolving door prison reform for them. At least this person was killed and taxpayers don't have to waste anymore money on him. It was shameful what Beto did in the TV conference with the grieving families in the audience and he's trying to grandstand for his own benefit. What a loser! Why anyone would vote for something as callous as he is beyond my comprehension. Such a tragic ordeal but, once again, you can't blame the guns!

MartinSE 05-27-2022 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe (Post 2099543)
Do you really think that I believe that you can, or should take away all guns?

No, I was addressing the other 50% of the posters.

Quote:

As I previously posted, people are comparing apples to pears. The mantra continues to be more gun control and those who question more gun control are not looking for solutions.
Do you really think I am suggesting JUST more gun controls?

Other than you, show posts of people making suggestions (other than taking away cars)

Quote:

Given all of the information coming out about the murderer of these children, if he was FLAGGED for mental health issues in the FBI database as he should have been, he would not have passed the background check that the FBI approved. He would therefore not have been able to purchase the two rifles legally.

This is one example of system failure. How about fixing what is broke and then determine what is needed to close identified gaps?

ANYTHING that is broken, should be fixed, I completely agree. If he should not have been able to obtain 2 AR15s, then the person who enabled that should be charged with assessor to premeditated murder. In fact ANYONE illegally selling a weapon that is used to commit any murder should be charged. This should also include ANYONE that sells a gun. Gun shows, private sales, and any black market sales. If the source of a gun used in a murder can be determined, and if that sale was "illegal" then the persons selling the gun should be charged.

Thank you that is actually a suggestion that we CAN do. Wanna bet we will be told why it won/t work instead of joining in to get it done?

Quote:

Please provide proof "that it is easier to get a gun in many states" than a drivers license.
First please show where it is illegal to fire a firearm while intoxicated. It IS illegal to drive while intoxicated. It is illegal to drive faster than the posted speed limit, show laws limiting how fast you can fire your weapon, or where. Try driving on the court house lawn? You will be towed, try walk onto the Capital steps, and waving your guns, you will be applauded. I think you get the point.

Let's take the one that pertains to this thread - Texas: How to Apply for a Texas Driver License | Department of Public Safety

To get a Drivers license:

The Department issues driver licenses valid for up to eight years to Texas residents 18 years of age and older. The Texas Driver’s Handbook is available online to help you qualify for a Texas driver license. You will need to provide proof of the following to apply for a driver license:

* U.S. Citizenship or, if you are not a U.S. Citizen, evidence of lawful presence
* Texas Residency
* Identity, and
* Social Security Number
* Evidence of Texas Vehicle Registration* for each vehicle you own. Registration must be current. Visit Texas DMV vehicle registration for more information (New Residents who are surrendering an out-of-state driver license only)
* Proof of Insurance* for each vehicle you own
* If you do not own a vehicle, you will sign a statement affirming this.

Additionally, you will need to provide evidence of completion of:

* Impact Texas Driver (ITD) if you will be taking a driving test for the issuance of your driver license**
* A six-hour adult Driver Education course, if you are 18 through 24 years of age (Does not apply to new residents who are 18 years of age or older and surrendering a valid, unexpired out-of-state driver license)
* Once you have gathered the necessary documents and completed the required courses, you will need to do the following:

* Complete the driver license application before arriving at your local office (This form is also available at all driver license offices).
* Make an appointment at a driver license office.
* Provide the following documentation to the license and permit specialist:
* Application for the issuance of a driver license
* U.S. Citizenship or, if you are not a U.S. Citizen, evidence of lawful presence
* Identity, and
* Social Security Number
* Provide your signature for DL or ID.
* Provide your thumbprints.
* Have your picture taken.
* Pay the application fee.
* Pass the vision exam.
* Take and pass the knowledge and driving tests. You may complete the testing requirements at the DL office by scheduling an appointment online or through a Third Party provider. Read about testing in other languages and driving test requirements.


Now, what are the requirements to buy a gun in Texas? Buying - Gun Laws - Guides at Texas State Law Library

I won't copy it here, because almost all that is there are links to explain who CAN NOT purchase a gun (felons, etc) but the only topic listing a requirement is AGE. One Retirement - AGE. Nothing about things you have to do - testing, training, demonstrating competence, etc etc etc. (they left off affording it)

Compare the two. Obviously, Texas is very afraid of people driving on their streets, but if you want to kill children - no so hard. If you want, you can eliminate any duplicates from the two lists (US Citizenship, Texas resident, etc.) Drivers license still wins by a mile.

Quote:

As I have said multiple times before, if you want to make progress then focus on the why and try and fix it. The problem with looking at the why is that it is not going to change anything in the short term. When the "quick fixes" ultimately don't work, how many of those people who proposed/supported them will be willing to look into the eyes of survivors of future mass killings and explain how their promised fixes didn't work?
I absolutely agree we should focus on "WHY" and solve that. Much of my career was as a consulting Systems Analysts. The WHY question was always the second thing I did. First the company wanted me to stop the bleeding (so to speak) - mitigate the problem, so they could get back to making money while I took the time to identify the actual problem.

But, I don't know about any one else, but I can walk and chew gum at the same time. So, why not implement mitigation techniques while we try to determine the WHY so we can solve it. Why not look for low hanging fruit that we can all agree on and implement while the brainiacs look for how to solve societies cultural issues. And yes, but is SOMETHING is broken in the US, since this is a uniquely US problem.

Topspinmo 05-27-2022 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 2099335)
That boat has sailed. Your generation refuses to accept responsibility for the lousy teaching of the generation that actually raised today's kids. If only those kids' parents had better role models (their own parents) then maybe the grandkids wouldn't be so rotten today.

You want to fix the family, then stop telling kids it's okay to carry around AR-15s.

Wouldn’t you be in that same generation?

OrangeBlossomBaby 05-27-2022 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topspinmo (Post 2099574)
Wouldn’t you be in that same generation?

Only marginally. I'm from the tail end of the boomer generation. Also, I chose not to have children. So no - blame ain't on me. It's on all the boomers who had kids and didn't teach them how to parent.

Wilson02852 05-27-2022 08:43 AM

Let's Get Everyone
 
Auto manufacturers for fast cars

Civil Engineers for dangerous highway designs.

Dairy farmers for air pollution and high cholesterol.

And on and on. Yeah last but not least the supreme designer of the perfect human.

ThirdOfFive 05-27-2022 08:46 AM

We geezers certainly do have all the answers--even if most of those answers contradict the answers of others. But not only do we solve nothing, for the most part we cannot even really define the problem. Mostly we just fall back on our prejudices.

Sometimes it pays to get closer to the source. I had a conversation with my granddaughter some time ago, really about social skills but applicable here too. Her statement? "The reason that so many people of my generation are such total losers socially is because they never really learned HOW. Their "socialization" is social media".

That deserves some careful pondering, from a couple of aspects. Social media in some part (large part?) has become a surrogate parent to kids since--oh--the mid 1990s or so. A kid behind a screen can be anything he or she wants to be, and convince others that he is who he portrays himself as being. He's rarely if ever in personal contact with many of those online "friends" so he doesn't worry too much about being outed as a phony. His world probably--and social life certainly--are words on a screen. Personally he may be someone who other kids pick on, or who lags behind in school, or whatever. But he doesn't have the social skills to deal with those issues in person, so he just hides from them while building up his social media persona.

Couple that with the fact that no matter how far out or bizarre someone's ideas are, he or she can find uncountable sources on the internet that agree with his ideas. He doesn't discuss them in person with the people he encounters in daily life but he DOES discuss them with like-minded people on social media. He's not looking for information so much as validation (a common problem, even among us geezers), and he finds it. Doesn't matter how far out. The world is flat--people of one religion drink the blood of the children of another--One race will eliminate another race unless people who believe like HE believes intervene, etc. etc. His socialization is mainly with people with beliefs equally or even more bizarre than his. The REAL world--the world of face-to-face interactions with peers, practicing the skills needed to get along in daily life, knowing what to say and what not to say, becomes less and less important. It is a bad confluence of negativity. It is a bomb, in some cases, primed to go off.

Okay. Factor #2. A kid growing up in America today is taught to FEAR guns. Guns are EEEEEEVIL. Guns are SCARY. Only BAD people have guns. He hears it (if he hears anything) incessantly about it in school. So--here we have an insecure, alienated kid, saturated with bizarre ideas, who buys, borrows or steals a gun. His online persona portrays him as a swaggering bad guy. He takes the gun and becomes that guy. Maybe he only wants to scare people (how many kids bring guns to school just to show other kids?). Maybe his bizarre ideas and viewpoints dictate that violence is the answer to whatever his twisted mind tells him the problem happens to be.

And the bomb goes off.

It is no coincidence that the rise in these school shootings parallels the rise in social media usage, and even more precisely, the lack of effective parenting in lieu of the kid living on social media. They're not taught much else--at least not much else that sticks. An alienated kid or young adult filled with bizarre ideas is a catastrophe waiting to happen. And in all too many cases, it does.

Okay. Even if the admittedly-dramatized scenario above is largely true (and I believe, generally, that it is) just knowing it does not solve the problem. It all goes back to the parents BEING parents, teaching their kids proper socialization and just plain HUMAN interaction, and monitoring the poison that they all too often find on the internet. Banning or limiting guns is not the answer (though I believe that there are a lot of things we can do to minimize the possibility of school shootings). It will probably take as long to fix this problem as it did to create it in the first place. But until we fix the FAMILIES, this problem will remain.

MartinSE 05-27-2022 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diverdave (Post 2099568)
But trying to ban guns is not the best way to stop this.

There are wacky-doodles on both sides. Sovereign Citizens believe that don't need a license to drive, and don't have to pay income tax. Far left wacky-doodles want to remove all guns (ban).

I will assume you are neither of those, and I know I am not. So, can we stop with the BAN GUNs argument. It is just noise and accomplishes nothing. Anyone with an IQ higher than a rock knows it will not work.

dhdallas 05-27-2022 08:51 AM

Move!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jebartle (Post 2098784)
19 innocent children, 2 dedicated teachers, lives lost, solution????? More guns, bigger prisons, NOT. Japan, no guns unless police and military, murder rate .3 percent per 100,000, America, 4.7 per 100,000. Mental health wake up call.

Why don't you do us all a favor and move there!

OrangeBlossomBaby 05-27-2022 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive (Post 2099581)
We geezers certainly do have all the answers--even if most of those answers contradict the answers of others. But not only do we solve nothing, for the most part we cannot even really define the problem. Mostly we just fall back on our prejudices.

Sometimes it pays to get closer to the source. I had a conversation with my granddaughter some time ago, really about social skills but applicable here too. Her statement? "The reason that so many people of my generation are such total losers socially is because they never really learned HOW. Their "socialization" is social media".

That deserves some careful pondering, from a couple of aspects. Social media in some part (large part?) has become a surrogate parent to kids since--oh--the mid 1990s or so. A kid behind a screen can be anything he or she wants to be, and convince others that he is who he portrays himself as being. He's rarely if ever in personal contact with many of those online "friends" so he doesn't worry too much about being outed as a phony. His world probably--and social life certainly--are words on a screen. Personally he may be someone who other kids pick on, or who lags behind in school, or whatever. But he doesn't have the social skills to deal with those issues in person, so he just hides from them while building up his social media persona.

Couple that with the fact that no matter how far out or bizarre someone's ideas are, he or she can find uncountable sources on the internet that agree with his ideas. He doesn't discuss them in person with the people he encounters in daily life but he DOES discuss them with like-minded people on social media. He's not looking for information so much as validation (a common problem, even among us geezers), and he finds it. Doesn't matter how far out. The world is flat--people of one religion drink the blood of the children of another--One race will eliminate another race unless people who believe like HE believes intervene, etc. etc. His socialization is mainly with people with beliefs equally or even more bizarre than his. The REAL world--the world of face-to-face interactions with peers, practicing the skills needed to get along in daily life, knowing what to say and what not to say, becomes less and less important. It is a bad confluence of negativity. It is a bomb, in some cases, primed to go off.

Okay. Factor #2. A kid growing up in America today is taught to FEAR guns. Guns are EEEEEEVIL. Guns are SCARY. Only BAD people have guns. He hears it (if he hears anything) incessantly about it in school. So--here we have an insecure, alienated kid, saturated with bizarre ideas, who buys, borrows or steals a gun. His online persona portrays him as a swaggering bad guy. He takes the gun and becomes that guy. Maybe he only wants to scare people (how many kids bring guns to school just to show other kids?). Maybe his bizarre ideas and viewpoints dictate that violence is the answer to whatever his twisted mind tells him the problem happens to be.

And the bomb goes off.

It is no coincidence that the rise in these school shootings parallels the rise in social media usage, and even more precisely, the lack of effective parenting in lieu of the kid living on social media. They're not taught much else--at least not much else that sticks. An alienated kid or young adult filled with bizarre ideas is a catastrophe waiting to happen. And in all too many cases, it does.

Okay. Even if the admittedly-dramatized scenario above is largely true (and I believe, generally, that it is) just knowing it does not solve the problem. It all goes back to the parents BEING parents, teaching their kids proper socialization and just plain HUMAN interaction, and monitoring the poison that they all too often find on the internet. Banning or limiting guns is not the answer (though I believe that there are a lot of things we can do to minimize the possibility of school shootings). It will probably take as long to fix this problem as it did to create it in the first place. But until we fix the FAMILIES, this problem will remain.

You're seeing this with the same myopic lens that you complain about in others.

People living in the suburbs and cities were also taught to fear guns. At least in the cities and suburbs where I grew up. In the more rural areas, everyone had a rifle near the back door to chase off coyotes and bears. But you NEVER heard anything about that, on our side of the county. Why? Because there were no coyotes and bears on our side of the county. We had no need for guns. In our area, the purpose of guns was to shoot people. And civilized people simply didn't DO that. No - the only people who shot other people were criminals, and cops who chased down criminals.

In our part of free America, we were free to not NEED guns. It was an idyllic upbringing, FREE from crime, FREE from violence, FREE from the need to regulate a thing. We were self-regulating.

Sadly - that idyllic free society has become more and more isolated from the rest of the country. But blaming it on the current batch of kids being afraid of guns just can't possibly be true. Because if it were true, and 18-year-old kid wouldn't have used one to kill 19 other kids this week.

Jacob85 05-27-2022 08:54 AM

Interesting that these other countries all have people with mental health issues but don’t have the problems we do with gun violence. We certainly need to focus on stricter gun laws!

MartinSE 05-27-2022 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive (Post 2099581)
We geezers certainly do have all the answers--even if most of those answers contradict the answers of others. But not only do we solve nothing, for the most part we cannot even really define the problem. Mostly we just fall back on our prejudices.

Sometimes it pays to get closer to the source. I had a conversation with my granddaughter some time ago, really about social skills but applicable here too. Her statement? "The reason that so many people of my generation are such total losers socially is because they never really learned HOW. Their "socialization" is social media".

That deserves some careful pondering, from a couple of aspects. Social media in some part (large part?) has become a surrogate parent to kids since--oh--the mid 1990s or so. A kid behind a screen can be anything he or she wants to be, and convince others that he is who he portrays himself as being. He's rarely if ever in personal contact with many of those online "friends" so he doesn't worry too much about being outed as a phony. His world probably--and social life certainly--are words on a screen. Personally he may be someone who other kids pick on, or who lags behind in school, or whatever. But he doesn't have the social skills to deal with those issues in person, so he just hides from them while building up his social media persona.

Couple that with the fact that no matter how far out or bizarre someone's ideas are, he or she can find uncountable sources on the internet that agree with his ideas. He doesn't discuss them in person with the people he encounters in daily life but he DOES discuss them with like-minded people on social media. He's not looking for information so much as validation (a common problem, even among us geezers), and he finds it. Doesn't matter how far out. The world is flat--people of one religion drink the blood of the children of another--One race will eliminate another race unless people who believe like HE believes intervene, etc. etc. His socialization is mainly with people with beliefs equally or even more bizarre than his. The REAL world--the world of face-to-face interactions with peers, practicing the skills needed to get along in daily life, knowing what to say and what not to say, becomes less and less important. It is a bad confluence of negativity. It is a bomb, in some cases, primed to go off.

Okay. Factor #2. A kid growing up in America today is taught to FEAR guns. Guns are EEEEEEVIL. Guns are SCARY. Only BAD people have guns. He hears it (if he hears anything) incessantly about it in school. So--here we have an insecure, alienated kid, saturated with bizarre ideas, who buys, borrows or steals a gun. His online persona portrays him as a swaggering bad guy. He takes the gun and becomes that guy. Maybe he only wants to scare people (how many kids bring guns to school just to show other kids?). Maybe his bizarre ideas and viewpoints dictate that violence is the answer to whatever his twisted mind tells him the problem happens to be.

And the bomb goes off.

It is no coincidence that the rise in these school shootings parallels the rise in social media usage, and even more precisely, the lack of effective parenting in lieu of the kid living on social media. They're not taught much else--at least not much else that sticks. An alienated kid or young adult filled with bizarre ideas is a catastrophe waiting to happen. And in all too many cases, it does.

Okay. Even if the admittedly-dramatized scenario above is largely true (and I believe, generally, that it is) just knowing it does not solve the problem. It all goes back to the parents BEING parents, teaching their kids proper socialization and just plain HUMAN interaction, and monitoring the poison that they all too often find on the internet. Banning or limiting guns is not the answer (though I believe that there are a lot of things we can do to minimize the possibility of school shootings). It will probably take as long to fix this problem as it did to create it in the first place. But until we fix the FAMILIES, this problem will remain.

Almost nothing you posted applies to me or my family. I seriously doubt it applies to most families.

I do not accept your daughter as a expert in the problems of America. Sorry, but you start saying how people are just expressing their opinions and then expressed yours and your daughters (and you seemed to present your daughter as a expert witness in sociology.

And, I would suggest that social media, video games, et al, are just as prevalent around the world as they are here, yet, 4% of worlds population accounts for 99.9% of the class room murders.

If you want an opinion, the gun rights argument is the root of the problem. It is used to scare gun owners into hating people that want to stop th murder children. Listening to the "gun rights" extremists, it seems they don't think children live are as important as shooting deer or blowing up water melons.

Now, that was OVER THE TOP on my part. Which I did very intentionally to explain why people that want to solve the problem are so frustrated.

Imagine, mass murders will just take cars and drive then into the school to kill children if that is what they want to do.

Diverdave 05-27-2022 08:56 AM

Check your facts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSE (Post 2098844)
Sorry, this shooter did not lie on the background check, Texas doesn’t require one. He just turned 18 and legally purchased 2 ar15s a day later and then killed 21 people.

It’s hard to enforce laws that don’t exist.

To sell a gun at a retail level requires a FFL, Federal Firearms License. Federal law (not Texas) requires a FBI background check prior to purchasing any Firearm. There is no way that you can buy a gun from a retailer or any responsible gun owner anywhere in the US without a FBI background check. I know, I had my FFL for several years and the FBI made regular inspection visits. I would risk serious jail time if I couldn't account for every gun and produce the FFL background check for every purchase. If a private individual sells a gun without going through a FFL dealer they can be held responsible for whatever is done with that firearm. You would be insane to take that risk and end up in jail for what happened with the gun you sold.

OrangeBlossomBaby 05-27-2022 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob85 (Post 2099589)
Interesting that these other countries all have people with mental health issues but don’t have the problems we do with gun violence. We certainly need to focus on stricter gun laws!

I wonder why certain people are so averse to universal background checks. It's almost as though they're afraid someone will find out they've done something wrong.

Universal background checks, RE-classifying AR-15s as assault weapons (that's how they were, before they were DEclassified as assault weapons), and banning same-day sales of firearms at gun shows (because of the universal background check requirement) would be a good start.

dewilson58 05-27-2022 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diverdave (Post 2099591)
To sell a gun at a retail level requires a FFL, Federal Firearms License. Federal law (not Texas) requires a FBI background check prior to purchasing any Firearm. There is no way that you can buy a gun from a retailer or any responsible gun owner anywhere in the US without a FBI background check. I know, I had my FFL for several years and the FBI made regular inspection visits. I would risk serious jail time if I couldn't account for every gun and produce the FFL background check for every purchase. If a private individual sells a gun without going through a FFL dealer they can be held responsible for whatever is done with that firearm. You would be insane to take that risk and end up in jail for what happened with the gun you sold.

Yes, but facts do not fit everyone's agenda.

MartinSE 05-27-2022 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyndee@twc.com (Post 2099570)
Guns cant shot them selves some one has too pull the trigger. Take away guns -if they want to kill they do so another way , baseball bats, cars knives . anything/. We had a killer drive into a parade, In New york they push you in front of a on coming train. We need to have stable families and teach respect. Bring GOD back into the schoo;ws

So, guns don't make it easier to kill people? You seriously believe an 18 year old could take a baseball bat into a school and kill 19 children in minutes - I would pay to see that.

Give me a break, at least have enough compassion to be sensible. Yes, people who want to kill will find a way to kill - guns just make it easier and more efficient.

Maybe there is a reason the pentagon is not shipping a massive amounts of bats to the Ukraine.

ThirdOfFive 05-27-2022 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSE (Post 2099590)
Almost nothing you posted applies to me or my family. I seriously doubt it applies to most families.

I do not accept your daughter as a expert in the problems of America. Sorry, but you start saying how people are just expressing their opinions and then expressed yours and your daughters (and you seemed to present your daughter as a expert witness in sociology.

And, I would suggest that social media, video games, et al, are just as prevalent around the world as they are here, yet, 4% of worlds population accounts for 99.9% of the class room murders.

If you want an opinion, the gun rights argument is the root of the problem. It is used to scare gun owners into hating people that want to stop th murder children. Listening to the "gun rights" extremists, it seems they don't think children live are as important as shooting deer or blowing up water melons.

Now, that was OVER THE TOP on my part. Which I did very intentionally to explain why people that want to solve the problem are so frustrated.

Imagine, mass murders will just take cars and drive then into the school to kill children if that is what they want to do.

Granddaughter.

ThirdOfFive 05-27-2022 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dewilson58 (Post 2099594)
Yes, but facts do not fit everyone's agenda.

One of the more cogent posts in this thread, in my opinion.

OrangeBlossomBaby 05-27-2022 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diverdave (Post 2099591)
To sell a gun at a retail level requires a FFL, Federal Firearms License. Federal law (not Texas) requires a FBI background check prior to purchasing any Firearm. There is no way that you can buy a gun from a retailer or any responsible gun owner anywhere in the US without a FBI background check. I know, I had my FFL for several years and the FBI made regular inspection visits. I would risk serious jail time if I couldn't account for every gun and produce the FFL background check for every purchase. If a private individual sells a gun without going through a FFL dealer they can be held responsible for whatever is done with that firearm. You would be insane to take that risk and end up in jail for what happened with the gun you sold.

You're not required to be a licensed retail gun seller to sell guns to people. But IF you are one, you must run a check on your customer.

Only some states have regulations requiring private sales go through licensed dealers.

It isn't a universal thing. That's why people are pushing for universal background checks. Universal meaning - anyone selling a firearm needs to run a check on their customer or they are violating the law.

MartinSE 05-27-2022 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diverdave (Post 2099591)
To sell a gun at a retail level requires a FFL, Federal Firearms License. Federal law (not Texas) requires a FBI background check prior to purchasing any Firearm. There is no way that you can buy a gun from a retailer or any responsible gun owner anywhere in the US without a FBI background check. I know, I had my FFL for several years and the FBI made regular inspection visits. I would risk serious jail time if I couldn't account for every gun and produce the FFL background check for every purchase. If a private individual sells a gun without going through a FFL dealer they can be held responsible for whatever is done with that firearm. You would be insane to take that risk and end up in jail for what happened with the gun you sold.

I didn't say they didn't take the background test - I said it appears they passed it. If his juvenile record is sealed (I don't know if background checks can break that seal) and he just turned 18 2 days previously, chances are he did not have any priors that would have raised a flag. So, my assumption (based on what I have read and heard) is that he LEGALLY obtained the guns and 450 rounds of ammo.

And I COMPLETELY agree with you. ANYONE that sells a firearm that is then used to murder someone should be charged with accessory to murder.

MartinSE 05-27-2022 09:16 AM

"If you take away their guns they will just use bats".

Question, why is the pentagon not sending more bats to the Ukraine.

MartinSE 05-27-2022 09:18 AM

How about instead of arming teachers that don't want it and are not competent, let's give all the kids 9mm handguns when they get to school. Replace the library with a shooting range and have them check them back in when they go home.

What could go wrong with a class full of 9 year olds armed with 9mm's. After all I don't recall any age limits on the 2nd amendment.

Even this 18 year old murderer would not be crazy enough to go into a room full of armed 9 year olds.

Burgy 05-27-2022 09:22 AM

I don't think the right to bear arms should include Uzzi's, AR rifles etc. and being so easy to get for a newly18 year old. It wouldn't fix everything but might cut down on MASS shootings and police waiting an hour for backup

MartinSE 05-27-2022 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 2099593)
I wonder why certain people are so averse to universal background checks. It's almost as though they're afraid someone will find out they've done something wrong.

Universal background checks, RE-classifying AR-15s as assault weapons (that's how they were, before they were DEclassified as assault weapons), and banning same-day sales of firearms at gun shows (because of the universal background check requirement) would be a good start.

One argument I have heard is that they do not want to be "on a list" because the government will send agents out to "collect" their guns.

I don't buy it, but it was at least a reason I could understand some people feeling strongly about. There are studies in history that show one of the first steps of an autocrat is to take away peoples guns. Hence all the claims Obama was "coming for our guns" - even though more guns were sold under Obama than under Bush and no one ever reported having feds come take their guns away. Just saying.

MartinSE 05-27-2022 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 2099602)
You're not required to be a licensed retail gun seller to sell guns to people. But IF you are one, you must run a check on your customer.

Only some states have regulations requiring private sales go through licensed dealers.

It isn't a universal thing. That's why people are pushing for universal background checks. Universal meaning - anyone selling a firearm needs to run a check on their customer or they are violating the law.

True, and I think Universal background checks could help.

In addition, the doctor patient confidentiality should be considered, and healthcare professionals should be required to check a box saying, "recommended for gun purchase" or "not recommended for gun purchase". That keeps the why private, but could help with background checks. Of course, that has problems too - like a doctor doesn't want ANYONE to get guns, or a doctor wants EVERYONE to get guns. etc. etc. etc.

No solution is perfect.

Trayderjoe 05-27-2022 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSE (Post 2099573)
No, I was addressing the other 50% of the posters.

Do you really think I am suggesting JUST more gun controls?

Other than you, show posts of people making suggestions (other than taking away cars)

Unfortunately that was not clear in the original reply.

Quote:

First please show where it is illegal to fire a firearm while intoxicated. It IS illegal to drive while intoxicated. It is illegal to drive faster than the posted speed limit, show laws limiting how fast you can fire your weapon, or where. Try driving on the court house lawn? You will be towed, try walk onto the Capital steps, and waving your guns, you will be applauded. I think you get the point.
Not sure what this has to do with my post, seems to "muddy the waters"

Quote:

Let's take the one that pertains to this thread - Texas: How to Apply for a Texas Driver License | Department of Public Safety

To get a Drivers license:

The Department issues driver licenses valid for up to eight years to Texas residents 18 years of age and older. The Texas Driver’s Handbook is available online to help you qualify for a Texas driver license. You will need to provide proof of the following to apply for a driver license:

* U.S. Citizenship or, if you are not a U.S. Citizen, evidence of lawful presence
* Texas Residency
* Identity, and
* Social Security Number
* Evidence of Texas Vehicle Registration* for each vehicle you own. Registration must be current. Visit Texas DMV vehicle registration for more information (New Residents who are surrendering an out-of-state driver license only)
* Proof of Insurance* for each vehicle you own
* If you do not own a vehicle, you will sign a statement affirming this.

Additionally, you will need to provide evidence of completion of:

* Impact Texas Driver (ITD) if you will be taking a driving test for the issuance of your driver license**
* A six-hour adult Driver Education course, if you are 18 through 24 years of age (Does not apply to new residents who are 18 years of age or older and surrendering a valid, unexpired out-of-state driver license)
* Once you have gathered the necessary documents and completed the required courses, you will need to do the following:

* Complete the driver license application before arriving at your local office (This form is also available at all driver license offices).
* Make an appointment at a driver license office.
* Provide the following documentation to the license and permit specialist:
* Application for the issuance of a driver license
* U.S. Citizenship or, if you are not a U.S. Citizen, evidence of lawful presence
* Identity, and
* Social Security Number
* Provide your signature for DL or ID.
* Provide your thumbprints.
* Have your picture taken.
* Pay the application fee.
* Pass the vision exam.
* Take and pass the knowledge and driving tests. You may complete the testing requirements at the DL office by scheduling an appointment online or through a Third Party provider. Read about testing in other languages and driving test requirements.


Now, what are the requirements to buy a gun in Texas? Buying - Gun Laws - Guides at Texas State Law Library

I won't copy it here, because almost all that is there are links to explain who CAN NOT purchase a gun (felons, etc) but the only topic listing a requirement is AGE. One Retirement - AGE. Nothing about things you have to do - testing, training, demonstrating competence, etc etc etc. (they left off affording it)

Compare the two. Obviously, Texas is very afraid of people driving on their streets, but if you want to kill children - no so hard. If you want, you can eliminate any duplicates from the two lists (US Citizenship, Texas resident, etc.) Drivers license still wins by a mile.
Well not quite. In order to purchase a firearm in Texas, you need either a driver's license or a Texas State ID (link) for which you need proof of the following:

U.S. Citizenship or, if you are not a U.S. Citizen, evidence of lawful presence.
Texas Residency
Identity and
Social Security Number

So BEFORE you can even buy a gun in Texas, you have to either meet the requirements of a driver's license or have lawfully obtained a Texas State ID. THEN you still need to pass a FEDERALLY required background check if purchasing from a gun dealer as this killer did. Oh and by the way, my original request still stands, please provide proof that it is easier to buy a gun legally than to get a driver's license "in many states". The Texas example doesn't work.

Quote:

But, I don't know about any one else, but I can walk and chew gum at the same time. So, why not implement mitigation techniques while we try to determine the WHY so we can solve it. Why not look for low hanging fruit that we can all agree on and implement while the brainiacs look for how to solve societies cultural issues. And yes, but is SOMETHING is broken in the US, since this is a uniquely US problem.
Interesting. I too have been trained in multiple methodologies such as Root Cause Analysis and Six Sigma. What is consistent is identifying the problem and sustainable fixes. Handling "low hanging fruit" is easy in a company for example, where the "bosses" have the ability to shutdown an operation temporarily while these interim fixes are implemented. However, we are not talking about a company with a somewhat limited set of stakeholders but a country with so many more different stakeholders.

Trayderjoe 05-27-2022 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSE (Post 2099628)
True, and I think Universal background checks could help.

In addition, the doctor patient confidentiality should be considered, and healthcare professionals should be required to check a box saying, "recommended for gun purchase" or "not recommended for gun purchase". That keeps the why private, but could help with background checks. Of course, that has problems too - like a doctor doesn't want ANYONE to get guns, or a doctor wants EVERYONE to get guns. etc. etc. etc.

No solution is perfect.

Now here is a concrete proposal that could move forward. Will there be kinks to iron it out? Yes, but at least it is a recommendation that can be moved forward. Whether it becomes functional or not is irrelevant to the concept of proposing a specific solution versus repeating the mantra.

chuckpedrey 05-27-2022 10:02 AM

American was founded on a Christian ethnic. It is the Christian Bible that the founding fathers based their lives on.

MartinSE 05-27-2022 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe (Post 2099632)
Unfortunately that was not clear in the original reply.

Sorry

Quote:

Not sure what this has to do with my post, seems to "muddy the waters"
Our exchange was about difficulty in obtaining a drivers license vs a gun. Driving restrictions after you have the license are also more strict than a firearm.


Quote:

Well not quite. In order to purchase a firearm in Texas, you need either a driver's license or a Texas State ID (link) for which you need proof of the following:

U.S. Citizenship or, if you are not a U.S. Citizen, evidence of lawful presence.
Texas Residency
Identity and
Social Security Number

So BEFORE you can even buy a gun in Texas, you have to either meet the requirements of a driver's license or have lawfully obtained a Texas State ID. THEN you still need to pass a FEDERALLY required background check. Oh and by the way, my original request still stands, please provide proof that it is easier to buy a gun legally than to get a driver's license "in many states". The Texas example doesn't work.

You left out my saying in my post that you were retired to provide ID, etc. In other words sates define who CAN NOT buy a gun, but many place no requirements other than things that mean you are NOT being allowed.

My post referenced Texas requirements for gun purchase as an example of one of the many you requested. And you left out/ignored the numerous testing, training and demonstrations of competency I listed, which does show it is much "harder" to get a gun than a drivers license, which is exactly what you asked for and then ignored.

As to proving many states, I used a state which is pertinent to THIS conversation as an example - Texas, I will leave it up to you to find the others that have more requirements.

Hint: I don't know of a single state that doesn't require some testing to obtain a drivers license - competency, vision, etc. - I know some states that require competency testing to buy a gun, but I don't think all do. All states require some kind of testing to prove driving knowledge (some will accept other states license as proof). So, I feel safe in suggesting it will not be hard to find that proof. I often get PMs complaining about too many references/links and too long posts. So, have fun, and if you go to the trouble to check all states and find no others or even fewer than half, I would be very interested. (But I am sure that will not happen).

Quote:

I too have been trained in multiple methodologies such as Root Cause Analysis and Six Sigma. What is consistent is identifying the problem and sustainable fixes. Handling "low hanging fruit" is easy in a company for example, where the "bosses" have the ability to shutdown an operation temporarily while these interim fixes are implemented. However, we are not talking about a company with a somewhat limited set of stakeholders but a country with so many more different stakeholders.
I agree root cause is vital and in complex situations can take a long time to determine.

Many of the companies I worked for has issues with production lines that would cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars per hour to shut down and so that was NOT an option unless lives were at risk. It is possible to find and implement temporary "work arounds" or patches on live systems.

Are you suggesting we do nothing and just accept the death toll that is growing almost weekly for the past twenty years until we can determine with some level of certainty the root cause? I hope not.

And let me close this post bye saying thank you for the civil discourse and pertinent comments and questions. If more would do this we could make progress. It is possible, and you sir are proof.

Sarah_W 05-27-2022 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aldeana (Post 2099489)
Isn't it hypocritical and ironic that no guns will be allowed at the NRA event this week? Don't you wish that those precautions were in place at every supermarket, church, movie theater, etc?
How about those privileged few (mostly big name politicians) who walk around with a security detail?

Not hypocritical and not surprising whenever there is a speaker who has a Secret Service detail they will require no guns allowed.

Any business can put a sign on their door that says no guns allowed and it has to be honored. I'm not sure the point of that considering that guns are not allowed on school grounds and mass murders don't obey those requirements and kill innocent children. Signs will not stop mass shootings.

Johnsocat 05-27-2022 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2099331)
The point is to compare the US gun violence to other countries' gun violence. That's the important point.

Only if you are researching where you want to live. Our country is unique. Apples to oranges...

MartinSE 05-27-2022 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckpedrey (Post 2099639)
American was founded on a Christian ethnic. It is the Christian Bible that the founding fathers based their lives on.

Sorry this is also a myth.

Many of the "founding fathers" were atheists. And the theists were often (mostly?) Puritans (Calvinist's and was based on the Holiness movement) that would never consider what we consider Christians to be Christians today. Women were little more than possessions, etc. Maybe you would like to start "testing" women charged with witch craft? They came here specifically to escape the Church of Englands persecution, and they could persecute anyone not toeing the line to their beliefs.

And if you want Christian beliefs in government, lets start with feeding the poor, giving housing to the homeless, forgiving those that transgress against us, not killing our enemies. You know all those pesky things Jesus told us to do, but evangelicals don't want to do, and instead refer back to the old testament and repeatedly quote the "thous shall nots" and not Jesus saying "thou shalt.

And another point, would you clarifying which Bible you want to make law, and which interpretation of it? Since there are over 200 Christian denominations in the US alone, and over 45,000 in the world.

And does the Pope get a seat in the Christian White House? After all, there are 1.5 billion Catholics and only maybe a 1/2 million Protestants (divided up between 45,000 different interpretations.)

So, I am just. curious, is it YOUR religion you want made law?

Now, could we get back to guns being used to kill children in class rooms for the past 20 years?

"Christians" make up in total about 20% of the worlds population. Yet, some how the other 80% of the world's population are not murdering their children regularly in schools. There are always the occasional wacko dictator, or rebels, or whatever that kills children or others. But, Only in America do we appear to endorse muting children in schools regularly. I say appear, since we have had 20 years to do something about it, and so far we can't agree on anything. 20 years...

MartinSE 05-27-2022 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnsocat (Post 2099648)
Only if you are researching where you want to live. Our country is unique. Apples to oranges...

Uh? Huh?

No, considering ALL other countries in the world. The US is the ONLY country that regularly (every week now?) allows children to be murdered while in class for the past 20 years. Apples and Apples.

Australia had one, back in the 1990's, they banned guns. It didn't solve ALL the gun violence, but they don't have a recurring problem with children being murdered in class. (I don't think they have had ANY since that one).

Great Britain had one in 1996, they passed laws banning most guns, guess what, no more mass murders in schools.

MartinSE 05-27-2022 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarah_W (Post 2099646)
Not hypocritical and not surprising whenever there is a speaker who has a Secret Service detail they will require no guns allowed.

Any business can put a sign on their door that says no guns allowed and it has to be honored. I'm not sure the point of that considering that guns are not allowed on school grounds and mass murders don't obey those requirements and kill innocent children. Signs will not stop mass shootings.

Uh, yes hypocritical, since we are told repeatedly in every one of these conversations that ALL OF THE murders of children take place in "gun free zones" - so, being gun free obviously will not stop shooters that want to shoot.

So, I respectfully disagree with you. For the Organization that pushes for NO restrictions on carrying guns ANYWHERE, to NOT allow guns while they discuss GUNS ANYWHERE is the perfect example of hypocrisy. (BTW, I thought the NRA was pushing for guns in colleges - schools. Another example of gun anywhere except at our meeting.

MartinSE 05-27-2022 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe (Post 2099634)
Now here is a concrete proposal that could move forward. Will there be kinks to iron it out? Yes, but at least it is a recommendation that can be moved forward. Whether it becomes functional or not is irrelevant to the concept of proposing a specific solution versus repeating the mantra.

Thank you


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