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spd2918 05-26-2022 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSE (Post 2099136)
Interesting a quick search showed numbers AS HIGH AS 11% of shooters in schools exhibit serious mental health issues. Up to 20% of mass murderers.

I don't understand your point about knives, fertilizer, etc. Are you suggesting that ;since anything CAN be used as a weapon we should just do nothing? Since you are saying what doesn't work, but not making any suggestion one what to do to stop this uniquely American past time. We are the only country in the world that kills it's children for going to school.

Here is a study by MIH on mental health and mass shootings.

Mental Illness, Mass Shootings, and the Politics of American Firearms - PMC

The point i made shows you can chase your tail all day long by making guns laws and nothing will change. People who want to kill people can still do so without guns.

The press loves to celebrate school shootings for ratings and to further their political agendas. They will shove a camera into a greiving mother's face for ratings. They will rush to judgment and speculate just to stay on a hot topic. They are keen to talk about the shooter, and future shooters want that type of attention.

If the press were to report these pathetic individuals for what they are (lovers, mentally ill, socially awkward), then maybe we would have less repeaters.

Taltarzac725 05-26-2022 09:25 AM

101 California Street shooting - Wikipedia

I remember writing this law firm's partners or something like that after this shooting about getting their help with bringing practical materials for survivors/victims of crimes into libraries of all kinds and they, or whoever responded back then, wrote me that they did not have the resources to do anything about the issue I raised. I think they were thinking more broadly about curbing violence done by weapons meant for soldiers in combat situations and not with my concerns about access to meaningful information for those trying to deal with fallout of these shootings.

I do see stuff in that Act below that address these concerns though.

Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act - Wikipedia

Trayderjoe 05-26-2022 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marine1974 (Post 2099109)
I think it’s more like any American can buy weapons that can fire 400 rounds per minute. Even the inventors of these weapons agree it is a weapon designed for Military use in combat .

Actually the AR rifle that is widely owned and still purchased is a semi-automatic version of the military weapon. One trigger pull equals one round of ammunition expended in the civilian version .

MartinSE 05-26-2022 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trayderjoe (Post 2099148)
IMO, the very loop that this thread has taken is why not enough progress has been made to help reduce these tragic events. Apples are not truly being compared to apples when we compare our past history with our current society, nor when we compare US against other countries. EVERYTHING is not equal and making basic comparisons ignores these differences. For example, how does the use of anti-depressants factor in? Here is a study from 2021 on "America's Epidemic Of Antidepressants" (link). Were antidepressants as prevalent back then as they are now? What are the rates of anti-depressant use in other countries? What are the comparative suicide rates (US today versus the 1950's and US vs other countries)? When we were kids, we were exposed to violence as are kids of today, but WHAT IS DIFFERENT? One easy answer is that when we were kids, we socialized more (read: played) with other children whereas today a segment of the population playing violent video games are doing so online and by themselves.

Instead, how about taking the time understand how human life has become so devalued in our society? Is that too big of a challenge? Well then why don't we try to understand why CURRENT laws are not working and fix what is broken (for whatever reason) before we implement new laws? As an example from an earlier post in this thread: "But, not all somethings are useful. That is obvious, since there are lots of "somethings" being done, useless gun Carol laws that are not enforced and have too many loop holes for example." I asked: "I am curious as to which gun control laws are useless and not enforced and what the many loopholes are that make them useless." I still have not seen a response to this question, although the person who made the former statement has posted multiple times since then.

So if we are to solely focus on new "common sense" gun laws, please explain specifically what these laws would be and correlate how these new laws would have prevented these mass shootings. Given that at least twice in this thread, a statistic of "200 mass shootings have occurred this year" has been cited, I would ask that these proposed laws also be correlated to handgun usage and not just the use of a rifle. Note that I am not disputing the number since it would appear to include gangland style handgun shootings in major urban areas, but it would be helpful if the poster included a link to support the reported number and to provide context. I would also not be at all surprised if the data also shows that HANDGUNS are used more frequently than rifles in mass shooting events.

Oh, and I am looking as well for a definition of what an "assault rifle" actually is. I am not talking about the look or color of a rifle, I am talking about what function in the rifle makes it an "assault rifle". Hint: AR does NOT stand for assault rifle despite what the talking heads say, it stands for ArmaLite rifle after the company that originated the design in the 1950's.

Excellent post and very informative. You even pointed out a few areas of investigation that could potentially help. You obviously are posting in the wrong forum :)

I heard an NPR interview this morning that asked many of your questions. And one answer was "common sense" gun regulation would be "in the eye of the beholder". I think that is accurate.

I push for opening a dialog on solutions. The country is obviously divided, and one side is NOT going to get what it wants - hence we do not much of anything.

And the obvious answer to your question "what is ASSAULT WEAPON", is pretty obvious. One thing one side is extremely good at is making stupid statements which the other side can then use as talking points against them. Two recent ones being defund the police and assault weapons. Both of which are coined phrases intended to elicit inflamed attitudes in the public. And neither of which accurate represent the actual situation they are addressing. If we could all stop using dog whistles, we might find there are many things we can agree on.

And once again, thank you for the excellent post that actually addressed some points in serious need of discussion.

Oldragbagger 05-26-2022 09:31 AM

My husband and I have both been retired for six years from Baltimore County Schools, but even in the last ten years of working the entire school system had instituted security measures. First, school doors were all locked after morning admission and stayed locked until dismissal. There were cameras at the door so the person seeking admission could be clearly seen before being admitted. School employees had swipe cards and one door for access throughout the school day. There was an an armed School Resource Officer who was an on duty policeman. His office was located close to the front door. All classroom doors were metal and had locks. They had a very small glass window so you could see out. We conducted drills regularly, much like fire drills. Upon hearing a code that signaled we had an armed intruder all classroom doors were locked, lights were turned out, a curtain was placed over the window, children and staff were trained to huddle against the wall at a location far away from the window and keep silent.
It is a sad state of affairs that we need such a protocol in this country, and that children should have to be taught that this might be necessary to protect their lives, but I would hope that every school in the country, no matter the size of the community, will take whatever steps necessary to protect their precious charges. There are measures that can and should be taken.

MartinSE 05-26-2022 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldragbagger (Post 2099157)
My husband and I have both been retired for six years from Baltimore County Schools, but even in the last ten years of working the entire school system had instituted security measures. First, school doors were all locked after morning admission and stayed locked until dismissal. There were cameras at the door so the person seeking admission could be clearly seen before being admitted. School employees had swipe cards and one door for access throughout the school day. There was an an armed School Resource Officer who was an on duty policeman. His office was located close to the front door. All classroom doors were metal and had locks. They had a very small glass window so you could see out. We conducted drills regularly, much like fire drills. Upon hearing a code that signaled we had an armed intruder all classroom doors were locked, lights were turned out, a curtain was placed over the window, children and staff were trained to huddle against the wall at a location far away from the window and keep silent.
It is a sad state of affairs that we need such a protocol in this country, and that children should have to be taught that this might be necessary to protect their lives, but I would hope that every school in the country, no matter the size of the community, will take whatever steps necessary to protect their precious charges. There are measures that can and should be taken.

Whaat you describe is mitigation and every school should implement it until a solution is found. And I 100% agree it is extremely sad.

And, look back over this thread, and ANY thread any where in this country that touches on guns and I think you will find the majority of posts don't offer ANY solutions or even suggestions of solutions, or even calls for cooperation on finding solutions. They simply want to pound their chests about rights.

DonnaNi4os 05-26-2022 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebartle (Post 2098784)
19 innocent children, 2 dedicated teachers, lives lost, solution????? More guns, bigger prisons, NOT. Japan, no guns unless police and military, murder rate .3 percent per 100,000, America, 4.7 per 100,000. Mental health wake up call.

So many excuses for the shooters…bullied, unstable home life. Stop showing these monsters faces on tv. Stop making excuses. These deranged people want their moment in the light even if they die in the process. They are mentally ill, maybe; they are evil for certain. They are cowardly, deranged, evil murderers. Enough. We pray for the families, we cry with them and then our life goes on. Our anger diminishes and then it happens again and again. There have been 14 mass school shooting since Columbine and countless other mass shootings. Enough already. The government needs to start spending money on keeping the schools secure. How does anyone just walk into a school and start shooting?

Indydealmaker 05-26-2022 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueash (Post 2098823)
The Wild West had vigorous gun regulation in the towns and mass slaughters of civilians the likes of which we see so often did not happen.

Do you remember how horrified everyone was by Columbine in 1999. It had never happened before. In the last 22 years there have now been 13 mass school killings, defined as 3 or more deaths in a single incident.

Thoughts and prayers are not working.

However, better parenting by 2 parents would work.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:39 AM

Please, please, please, separate US inner city gun deaths from the rest of the country when quoting US stats. What happens there does not represent the US as a whole.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:44 AM

History of School Shootings in the United States | K12 Academics

The first US school shooting was on July 26th, 1764 (yes, we were a British colony at the time).

ThirdOfFive 05-26-2022 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinSE (Post 2099131)
You seem to be focused on the wording, "assault weapon" while ignoring the AR15 is the most popular gun sold in America. It is also designed to "appear" like it's military counter part while meeting government regulations. And of course not least, it is the weapon of choice in most mass shootings since it's release.

So, call it what ever you like...

And, I expect if AR15s were completely 100% banned, then the people wanting to kill a lot of people quickly would simply move to another weapon, like some of those you have pointed out would be much better to use.

So, I personally have no desire to BAN all guns. I think the horse have left that barn. With close to 400 million in circulation there is no practical way to ban them. However, that doesn't mean we should do nothing. Cool down periods, ager restrictions, and other means could be used/tried. And, personally I also would like to see a Federal Law that required some minimum level of control. And if a state is found to not be enforcing that minimum level the state would be held responsible/liable for any casualties that resulted.

One of the correlations that seems pop up in these debates (and I've been part of many) is that the lower the knowledge level, the higher the emotion. The post to which I'm referring makes this point very well. The rifle this Texas nutcase used wasn't an AR-15. It was an AR-15 STYLE rifle, specifically the Model DDM4 V7 rifle made by Daniel Defense of Georgia. Many companies are making these look-alikes since the original Colt patent expired I believe in the late 1970's. There are even BB guns made in this "style". But the term "AR-15" has taken on a sinister connotation and is thus used at every opportunity, even though the weapon isn't an AR-15.

The other overused term is "assault weapon". I had a client once who did some time for assault with a deadly weapon. His "assault weapon" of choice? A table leg, which he ripped off the dining room table and used it to chase some people out the door and down the street. Fortunately they were faster than he was so no harm done, other than of course to the table. An assault weapon, under the law, can be ANYTHING--but of course the term has also taken on a sinister connotation and as such is employed at every opportunity.

Progress will only be made when reason replaces emotion. But more and more, it seems like the opposite is true, not just in this particular debate.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:46 AM

The Dunblane massacre took place at Dunblane Primary School near Stirling, Scotland, United Kingdom, on 13 March 1996, when Thomas Hamilton shot dead sixteen pupils and one teacher, and injured fifteen others, before killing himself. It remains the deadliest mass shooting in British history.

Dunblane massacre - Wikipedia

ThirdOfFive 05-26-2022 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spd2918 (Post 2099152)
The point i made shows you can chase your tail all day long by making guns laws and nothing will change. People who want to kill people can still do so without guns.

The press loves to celebrate school shootings for ratings and to further their political agendas. They will shove a camera into a greiving mother's face for ratings. They will rush to judgment and speculate just to stay on a hot topic. They are keen to talk about the shooter, and future shooters want that type of attention.

If the press were to report these pathetic individuals for what they are (lovers, mentally ill, socially awkward), then maybe we would have less repeaters.

Yep--and the ironic thing is all this hysteria on the part of media results in two things: copycat crimes and a huge spike in gun sales.

KAM+6 05-26-2022 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banjobob (Post 2098943)
The problem is not the gun, the problem is single parent households . The decline of the family unit in not married shacking up and producing babies , pretending to be legitimate, women being left to raise children .Compare Chicago, most gun control in the country ,worst gun violence in the country. Massachusetts no gun permit required ,safest state for gun violence. Politicians scream to repeal allowing gun ownership, Nonsense ! Hold parents responsible for their childrens behavior, period.

Wrong, wrong, Massachusetts has a very strict gun permit law. In fact, it is very difficult to get a gun permit. Why does anyone need a machine gun. They should not be sold to the public.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:49 AM

Dec. 7, 1999. Veghel, Netherlands

One teacher and three students wounded by a 17-year-old student.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:50 AM

Mar. 2000 Branneburg, Germany

One teacher killed by a 15-year-old student, who then shot himself. The shooter has been in a coma ever since.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:50 AM

Jan. 18, 2001 Jan, Sweden

One student killed by two boys, ages 17 and 19

Stu from NYC 05-26-2022 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive (Post 2099164)
One of the correlations that seems pop up in these debates (and I've been part of many) is that the lower the knowledge level, the higher the emotion. The post to which I'm referring makes this point very well. The rifle this Texas nutcase used wasn't an AR-15. It was an AR-15 STYLE rifle, specifically the Model DDM4 V7 rifle made by Daniel Defense of Georgia. Many companies are making these look-alikes since the original Colt patent expired I believe in the late 1970's. There are even BB guns made in this "style". But the term "AR-15" has taken on a sinister connotation and is thus used at every opportunity, even though the weapon isn't an AR-15.

The other overused term is "assault weapon". I had a client once who did some time for assault with a deadly weapon. His "assault weapon" of choice? A table leg, which he ripped off the dining room table and used it to chase some people out the door and down the street. Fortunately they were faster than he was so no harm done, other than of course to the table. An assault weapon, under the law, can be ANYTHING--but of course the term has also taken on a sinister connotation and as such is employed at every opportunity.

Wow an assault weapon can be a table leg. Who would have thought.

Wish our govt would actually enforce the laws already on the books and do more to promote mental health.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:51 AM

Feb. 19, 2002 Freising, Germany

Two killed in Eching by a man at the factory from which he had been fired; he then traveled to Freising and killed the headmaster of the technical school from which he had been expelled. He also wounded another teacher before killing himself.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:51 AM

Apr. 26, 2002 Erfurt, Germany

13 teachers, two students, and one policeman killed, ten wounded by Robert Steinhaeuser, 19, at the Johann Gutenberg secondary school. Steinhaeuser then killed himself.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:52 AM

Apr. 29, 2002 Vlasenica, Bosnia-Herzegovina

One teacher killed, one wounded by Dragoslav Petkovic, 17, who then killed himself.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:52 AM

Sept. 28, 2004 Carmen de Patagones, Argentina

Three students killed and 6 wounded by a 15-year-old Argentininan student in a town 620 miles south of Buenos Aires.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:53 AM

Sept. 13, 2006 Montreal, Canada

Kimveer Gill, 25, opened fire with a semiautomatic weapon at Dawson College. Anastasia De Sousa, 18, died and more than a dozen students and faculty were wounded before Gill killed himself.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:54 AM

Nov. 7, 2007 Tuusula, Finland

An 18-year-old student in southern Finland shot and killed five boys, two girls, and the female principal at Jokela High School. At least 10 others were injured. The gunman shot himself and died from his wounds in the hospital.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:55 AM

Sept. 23, 2008 Kauhajoki, Finland

A 20-year-old male student shot and killed at least nine students and himself at a vocational college in Kauhajok, 330km (205 miles) north of the capital, Helsinki.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:55 AM

Mar. 11, 2009 Winnenden, Germany
Fifteen people were shot and killed at Albertville Technical High School in southwestern Germany by a 17-year-old boy who attended the same school.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:56 AM

Apr. 30, 2009 Azerbaijan, Baku

A Georgian citizen of Azerbaijani descent killed 12 students and staff at Azerbaijan State Oil Academy. Several others were wounded.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:56 AM

Apr. 7, 2011 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
A 23-year-old former student returned to his public elementary school in Rio de Janeiro and began firing, killing 12 children and seriously wounding more than a dozen others, before shooting himself in the head. While Brazil has seen gang-related violence in urban areas, this was the worst school shooting the country has ever seen

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:57 AM

July 22, 2011 Tyrifjorden, Buskerud, Norway

A gunman disguised as a policeman opened fire at a camp for young political activists on the island of Utoya. The gunman kills 68 campers, including personal friends of Prime Minister Stoltenberg. Police arrested Anders Behring Breivik, a 32-year-old Norwegian who had been been linked to an anti-Islamic group.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:57 AM

Mar. 19, 2012 Toulouse, France
Mohammed Merah, a French man of Algerian descent, shot and killed a rabbi, two of his children, and another child at a Jewish school. Police believe he had earlier shot and killed three paratroopers. Merah said he was a member of Al Qaeda and that he was seeking revenge for the killing of Palestinian children.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:59 AM

Jan. 7, 2015 Paris, Franc

Three masked gunmen storm the office of Charlie Hebdo, a satirical weekly magazine, and kill 12 people, including the paper's top editors and cartoonists, as well as two police officers. The provocative magazine is known for publishing charged cartoons that satirized Islamic terrorists and the Prophet Muhammad.

spd2918 05-26-2022 09:59 AM

Jan. 15, 2017 Monterrey, Nuevo Len, Mexico

A student at Colegio Americano del Noreste, brought a handgun to class and shot several classmates and himself. The high school had not yet implemented security measures that became widespread in Mexico in the prior decade.

MartinSE 05-26-2022 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spd2918 (Post 2099188)
Jan. 15, 2017 Monterrey, Nuevo Len, Mexico

A student at Colegio Americano del Noreste, brought a handgun to class and shot several classmates and himself. The high school had not yet implemented security measures that became widespread in Mexico in the prior decade.

Lets see, in your examples one country had 2 in the past couple decades - that would be France. We have had 27 so far this year. And the year is not half way over.

There are always exceptions, and nothing is perfect.

To compare to your list over the past decades, here is a list of school shootings in the US since 2000 (it provides a link to shooting prior to that)

List of school shootings in the United States - Wikipedia

spd2918 05-26-2022 10:05 AM

Jan. 29, 2017 Quebec, Canada

Alexandre Bissonnette, a Quebecois man who publicly expressed anti-Muslim sentiments, attacked the Islamic Cultural Centre of Quebec, where he killed six and injured nineteen who were attending prayer.

PurePeach 05-26-2022 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725 (Post 2098805)
Successful lawsuits against gun manufacturers might get some changes like those the tobacco companies underwent decades ago.

Guns don’t kill unless a person pulls the trigger. Guns aren’t a carcinogen like tobacco. These kinds of things are products of perhaps too many violent video games, lack of proper parenting (instilling values and morals), lax or no punishment for crimes, and I could go on and on. My parents would have whipped me until I couldn’t stand up if I’d acted like some of these kids do these days. Parents just don’t discipline because they are a generation who didn’t get disciplined either.

spd2918 05-26-2022 10:06 AM

Oct. 20, 2017 Goinia, Gois, Brazil

An unidentified student brought a pistol to class, killing two and injuring four. The shooter attempted suicide before being talked down by a teacher. He claimed inspiration from Columbine and the Realengo shooting.

spd2918 05-26-2022 10:07 AM

Oct. 17, 2018 Kerch, Crimea

A student at Kerch Polytechnic College, Vladislav Roslyakov, brought a shotgun and 150 rounds to his college, where he proceeded to kill 20 students and staff and wound 70. Vladislav was an avowed fan of Columbine shooters Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, participating in several online fan communities.

spd2918 05-26-2022 10:07 AM

Mar. 13, 2019 Suzano, Brazil

Two former students of the Professor Raul Brasil State School, Guilherme Taucci Monteiro and Luiz Henrique de Castro, went to the school and opened fire. They killed five students, two teachers, and themselves, as well as wounding eleven. They killed Monteiro's uncle prior to attacking the school.

spd2918 05-26-2022 10:09 AM

Mar. 15, 2019 Christchurch, New Zealand

Brenton Tarrant, a reported white supremacist who publicly espoused anti-Muslim sentiments, attacked two mosques. He killed 51 and wounded 49. Tarrant awaits trial, which will likely begin in 2020.

spd2918 05-26-2022 10:09 AM

September 20, 2021 Perm, Russia

18-year-old shooter Timur Bekmansurov brought a shotgun to Perm State University in the city of Perm, where he killed 6 and wounded 43. Statements from the shooter and public investigation revealed no terrorist connections, and no clear political or religious motivation.


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