[J1ceasar]

Decisions were made by governments and hindsight is easy to dispute good or bad. Why don't you simply look at California New York and Florida for the differences those two states were much more strict than Florida but it had more deaths per capita but really neither result was correct because what if we did not shut down and everyone died they'd be no economy whatsoever so you can air on the side of caution and I hope the government will support you the economic light or you can be a free spirit let everyone die and then wonder why there's no companies left

[MDLNB]

Wrong or right, a lot of actions by the gov had a lot to do with the final outcome.
A question that still needs to be answered is: How did this get started?
We KNOW for a fact that OUR government granted/gave China Wu Han lab research money. How much did that have to do with the Covid virus? The Director of NIH stated in a recent interview that the money was not "meant" to be used to weaponize the virus. He said it WAS meant for research into Sars. So, how much does our gov. know that they are not telling us? I understand the need for secrets, but there seems to be an awful lot of effort going into shrugging off the origination explanation of where it started and how it got spread worldwide. What are they hiding?
On a different subject, we are spending trillions of dollars that we do not have on blatant, frivolous spending. Who are we borrowing the money from? Are we printing more money? Who dictates how much money we can print? What is the difference between printing money and borrowing money? I am not an expert in finance or economics so folks like me just want some simple answers in layman terms. How can we be concerned about billions of dollars spent and now welcome trillions to be spent. Because some small percentage is being given to us in the form of Covid relief? No one is worried about the great debt that we are building? Did no one learn anything from Greece's bankruptcy? There are many countries out there waiting to ponce on us like vultures on a wounded animal. Who's going to bail us out, China?
Covid is being used by the gov to waste an awful lot of money and no one is paying attention.

[Dilligas]

Originally Posted by Gulfcoast

Members of my household have been going to their service industry jobs and dealing with the public face to face throughout this pandemic. Even when dentists and primary care physicians had closed their offices and weren't seeing patients, there were workers heading to their jobs at grocery stores, pharmacies, food service, gasoline stations - day in, day out.

That has helped to shape my perspective as to the risks of this virus. When you live with the risk daily, you get a pretty good idea how bad (or not so bad) things really are, at least in terms of yourself and your own family.

I'm the 55 year old mom who had healthy, active teens going to their jobs and schools plus activities. And, I was also the whippersnapper who was out running errands for her elderly mom. I haven't had the luxury of "staying safe" but thankfully we did manage to get through the better part of a year without a vaccine.

Now that the cases are falling, vulnerable people have gotten vaccinated and the actual risks of catching Covid have been greatly reduced we are now supposed to run out and get vaccinated even though we have likely already had the virus, albeit mild cases of it?

Why?

Why not?

[Bill14564]

Was the impact really necessary? No, but no one could know that until after it had started. Hindsight is 20/20 but in the moment things aren't so clear.

I believe most (all?) Governors acted with the best intentions. Some chose to lock down hard and long and others took a more relaxed approach. It's easy to see that NY with its continuing restrictions (mask mandates even beyond the CDC recommendations otherwise) has had a higher death rate than FL with its light touch to restrictions. FL came through this in better shape but maybe we were just very lucky.

What concerns me is the tendency to act in "an abundance of caution" rather than taking evidence-based, measured steps. There was little or no concern for the economy, for individual freedoms, for mental health, or for anything other than squashing the curve. Some of the measures were necessary and probably kept the death toll from being twice as high. By downplaying or ignoring the economic and societal costs however, some unnecessary damage was done. We'll recover but it is a shame that the recovery is necessary.

Hopefully, there will not be a next time but realistically, there probably will be. With any luck we will learn from the past year and be better prepared to handle all the impacts.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by MDLNB

Wrong or right, a lot of actions by the gov had a lot to do with the final outcome.
A question that still needs to be answered is: How did this get started?
We KNOW for a fact that OUR government granted/gave China Wu Han lab research money. How much did that have to do with the Covid virus? The Director of NIH stated in a recent interview that the money was not "meant" to be used to weaponize the virus. He said it WAS meant for research into Sars. So, how much does our gov. know that they are not telling us? I understand the need for secrets, but there seems to be an awful lot of effort going into shrugging off the origination explanation of where it started and how it got spread worldwide. What are they hiding?
On a different subject, we are spending trillions of dollars that we do not have on blatant, frivolous spending. Who are we borrowing the money from? Are we printing more money? Who dictates how much money we can print? What is the difference between printing money and borrowing money? I am not an expert in finance or economics so folks like me just want some simple answers in layman terms. How can we be concerned about billions of dollars spent and now welcome trillions to be spent. Because some small percentage is being given to us in the form of Covid relief? No one is worried about the great debt that we are building? Did no one learn anything from Greece's bankruptcy? There are many countries out there waiting to ponce on us like vultures on a wounded animal. Who's going to bail us out, China?
Covid is being used by the gov to waste an awful lot of money and no one is paying attention.

Grants & Funding | National Institutes of Health (NIH)

Wuhan University

Wuhan University is an internationally respected medical school and research facility.

[beckylou152]

Originally Posted by Gulfcoast

Members of my household have been going to their service industry jobs and dealing with the public face to face throughout this pandemic. Even when dentists and primary care physicians had closed their offices and weren't seeing patients, there were workers heading to their jobs at grocery stores, pharmacies, food service, gasoline stations - day in, day out.

That has helped to shape my perspective as to the risks of this virus. When you live with the risk daily, you get a pretty good idea how bad (or not so bad) things really are, at least in terms of yourself and your own family.

I'm the 55 year old mom who had healthy, active teens going to their jobs and schools plus activities. And, I was also the whippersnapper who was out running errands for her elderly mom. I haven't had the luxury of "staying safe" but thankfully we did manage to get through the better part of a year without a vaccine.

Now that the cases are falling, vulnerable people have gotten vaccinated and the actual risks of catching Covid have been greatly reduced we are now supposed to run out and get vaccinated even though we have likely already had the virus, albeit mild cases of it?

Why?

Good points - as a nurse, I can say that you certainly may NOT have had COVID - who knows? The reason to have the vaccine is to achieve herd immunity. I’ve talked to so many people who are terrified of the vaccine. However, it is safe and the science behind it is good. Those who don’t get the vaccine are hoping the rest of us will provide herd immunity. Unfortunately, if you do get the virus, you can spread it. It kills a lot of people and causes long term problems. That being said, I believe in free choice, although I don’t understand why people don’t want to keep the virus from spreading to those who are vulnerable. To each his own!

[Pedrocarrasco01@yahoo.com]

Originally Posted by coralway

I would guess the families and friends of the 584,000 dead would disagree.

Out of the 5 people that I know that death was attributed to Covid 19, one was battling Stage 4 Lung Cancer, Another one was battling 2 major strokes and paralyzed, one had Pancreatic Cancer, One was on the list for a heart transplant, and the last one died of Covid 19, I am not a Doctor, but my point is that a lot of deaths attributed to COVID-19 were of people that had other maladies and their immune system was compromised and couldn’t fight this virus. Yes the virus is real, however if you are have a normal immune system, your chances of surviving it are good. We closed the best economy in our history, closed schools, however WalMart, Target, Lowe’s, Home Depot and other major retailers stayed open, our small business was annihilated, many of them were forced to go out of business. We had major differences on reports by the CDC, WHO, Fauci and others one day wear two masks, wear no mask, wear a shield. Open our Country, those that want to wear masks, please continue, those that don’t want to eat in restaurants, that is your choice, don’t want to shop, not a problem, however please don’t demand that I have to, I am fully vaccinated, let’s get back to Normal, we are here in Florida and I thank our Governor for that. May God Bless America!!!

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by Gulfcoast

Members of my household have been going to their service industry jobs and dealing with the public face to face throughout this pandemic. Even when dentists and primary care physicians had closed their offices and weren't seeing patients, there were workers heading to their jobs at grocery stores, pharmacies, food service, gasoline stations - day in, day out.

That has helped to shape my perspective as to the risks of this virus. When you live with the risk daily, you get a pretty good idea how bad (or not so bad) things really are, at least in terms of yourself and your own family.

I'm the 55 year old mom who had healthy, active teens going to their jobs and schools plus activities. And, I was also the whippersnapper who was out running errands for her elderly mom. I haven't had the luxury of "staying safe" but thankfully we did manage to get through the better part of a year without a vaccine.

Now that the cases are falling, vulnerable people have gotten vaccinated and the actual risks of catching Covid have been greatly reduced we are now supposed to run out and get vaccinated even though we have likely already had the virus, albeit mild cases of it?

Why?

Cases are falling in part because people are getting vaccinated. They have fallen to about 35,000 new cases per day and 600 deaths per day. A yearly death toll of about 220,000 does not seem acceptably low.

It is likely that each of the deaths (over 600 per day) was someone who said, "we are now supposed to run out and get vaccinated?"

While "the actual risks of catching Covid have been greatly reduced," the vaccination goes farther and reduces the risk by a factor of 20.

The arguments against Covid vaccinations sound similar to the arguments against measles vaccinations which led to the outbreak in early 2019. We need to learn from the past and avoid a Covid resurgence in the fall.

[bruce213]

It will be interesting in a few years to compare Ca and Fl. Similar states that took different approaches.

[DeanFL]

.
.
ABSOLUTELY, COMPLETLY, TOTALLY, PERFECTLY said my Friend.

EXACTLY my point of view as well. I cannot add much other than, thank you.
.
.

Originally Posted by Pedrocarrasco01@yahoo.com

Out of the 5 people that I know that death was attributed to Covid 19, one was battling Stage 4 Lung Cancer, Another one was battling 2 major strokes and paralyzed, one had Pancreatic Cancer, One was on the list for a heart transplant, and the last one died of Covid 19, I am not a Doctor, but my point is that a lot of deaths attributed to COVID-19 were of people that had other maladies and their immune system was compromised and couldn’t fight this virus. Yes the virus is real, however if you are have a normal immune system, your chances of surviving it are good. We closed the best economy in our history, closed schools, however WalMart, Target, Lowe’s, Home Depot and other major retailers stayed open, our small business was annihilated, many of them were forced to go out of business. We had major differences on reports by the CDC, WHO, Fauci and others one day wear two masks, wear no mask, wear a shield. Open our Country, those that want to wear masks, please continue, those that don’t want to eat in restaurants, that is your choice, don’t want to shop, not a problem, however please don’t demand that I have to, I am fully vaccinated, let’s get back to Normal, we are here in Florida and I thank our Governor for that.
May God Bless America!!!

.
.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by J1ceasar

Decisions were made by governments and hindsight is easy to dispute good or bad. Why don't you simply look at California New York and Florida for the differences those two states were much more strict than Florida but it had more deaths per capita but really neither result was correct because what if we did not shut down and everyone died they'd be no economy whatsoever so you can air on the side of caution and I hope the government will support you the economic light or you can be a free spirit let everyone die and then wonder why there's no companies left

The most likely reasons those states had higher rates are numerous - majority international hubs, mass transit is heavily used, population density, etc. All contribute to a more rapid spread of a virus and an overwhelming of medical systems.

I don't know of any models that suggest everyone would die (extinction level event) if we did nothing - a LOT, but not everyone.

The issue is what is the purpose of government. And conservatives and liberals disagree on that - it is almost the entire disagreement between them. Liberals (me) believe the purpose of government is to do things the people want to be done that the people can't reasonably do alone or even as a company. For instance, reaching the moon, building the Interstate highway, the post office, etc. Conservatives believe that free-market capitalism will supply what people want - ie. supply and demand. Obviously, there is a spectrum from the radical right to the radical left, with many shades of purple in between.

As a liberal, I believe one of the purposes of the government would be to take control of pandemic mitigation. I personally feel the government should have required masks, should have used the emergency production act to supply needed items, like masks and ventilators, etc.

I completely agree with the government providing economic support for people impacted by the pandemic - another of those "things a government should do".

I think the government could have done a lot more to work with companies to figure out how to make the workplace safe for those companies that are involved in critical production.

But, I agree we are where we are. Pointing fingers might make us feel better, but will not help us move forward. We are in a terrible situation, and we can't solve it, so by my definition, it is the job of the government. We need the government to take aggressive actions to stimulate the creation of a mix of temporary and long-term jobs. I see the government trying to do that now, unfortunately, I also see some people trying to prevent the government from doing anything.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

counter factual are "impossible" to prove because they didn't happen. . .
counter fatals are at best, an opinion, but unless you are in the position of making responsible decisions for others, such as doctors, elected officials, etc, you are just complaining or are a Russian disinformation troll

since the last major pandemic was about 100 years ago without modern medicine and world wide news and cooperation, or even work wide communications.. . . this pandemic was a unique and first event. . . so unless you have a crystal ball better than science, you are just picking at your own scab hoping others will sympathize with you

[donassaid]

Covid is and was a political "planned-demic". Never before has a disease or virus with a 99% survival rate had such extreme measures forced upon its citizens. The ultimate impact financially, emotionally, and socially will never be calculated with the effects on school children, people unable to schedule critical surgeries, attend funerals, weddings, graduations, be with their hispitalized spouses, etc. Pure, unadulterated, absolute insanity driven by unhinged fear.

[merrymini]

Too bad the death numbers from 2019 and 2020 do not support the over 500,000 plus figure. I guess facts do not matter.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by merrymini

Too bad the death numbers from 2019 and 2020 do not support the over 500,000 plus figure. I guess facts do not matter.

I do not understand your post.

If you are suggesting that the 570,000 dead Americans didn't die from COVID, I disagree. The numbers are supported by numerous forms of evidence. Could you share your evidence of fraud/errors/whatever?

The numbers in the US are consistent with the numbers from around the world, so the conspiracy would have to also be international.

If that is what you are suggesting, then somehow all the governments in the world agree to conspire to inflate the number of people that died from COVID.