[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Love2Swim

I would love to see all the men that are against abortion, owning up to their responsibilities and paying a quarter of their salaries in child support. And all the people who insist that these unwanted fetuses be carried to term adopt those children born with severe birth defects and be responsible for their care for many years. While they're at it, they can take over the care of offspring from rape and incest victims. And isn't it interesting that the same people who won't support abortion, also don't want publicly funded health insurance to cover birth control, however its okay for Medicare to cover the generic form of Viagara. And how ironic that these same anti-abortion folks are all in favor of capital punishment.

Birth control is covered by just about every insurance company. Even Medicaid...

OTOH, "Medicare generally does not cover Viagra or other medications for ED treatment. Under Medicare guidelines for coverage, these medications are not considered medically necessary"...

It would help if you had your facts straight.

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by dewilson58

I don't think she/he does.

I would NEVER ASSume one's gender...

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

So, you only support a woman's choice up until a certain time...

Men should "never have a say" and "I do not support late term abortion"...

Can you not see the contradiction there?

I disagree with you paraphrasing.

If this moves forward, there are trigger laws that will ban abortion PERIOD. So, no women don't have any choice either.

Men having to have vasectomies is reversible, so not permanent. Seems the men get the better part of the deal. Especially since one of the common arguments is abortion is just used for birth control. Well, men get vasectomies, and can have them reversed when they actually want a family and not just having fun.

[zendog3]

Originally Posted by Lindaws

Fed. govt. has no say in abortions and/or voting restrictions. It is solely up to
each state per the Constitution .

I am sorry, but that argument is simplistic. Some rights hold be available to all American citizens. Before the civil rights era, some segregation states restricted the rights of black people. NO, we said. In some matters all Americans have equal rights. Should the right of a woman to decide to have a baby, be nullified because of the state where she lives?

[JMintzer]

And just to be clear...

I do abhor the concept of abortion... BUT... I understand the NEED to have it be safe and legal WITH certain restrictions...

Hearing people calling to make it legal up until the time of birth is insane (to me).

Also, making it illegal after 6 weeks is just as insane, since it is VERY possible that a woman may not even know she's pregnant at that point...

Unfortunately, there is no consensus as to when (or even if) it should be allowed... Soooo we'll keep going round and round, yelling at each other, getting nowhere...

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

I disagree with you paraphrasing.

If this moves forward, there are trigger laws that will ban abortion PERIOD. So, no women don't have any choice either.

Men having to have vasectomies is reversible, so not permanent. Seems the men get the better part of the deal. Especially since one of the common arguments is abortion is just used for birth control. Well, men get vasectomies, and can have them reversed when they actually want a family and not just having fun.

Are you familiar with the complications with having a vasectomy?

And you DO realize that they are not 100% reversible, right?

It's a fools argument...

[jimbomaybe]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

I disagree with you paraphrasing.

If this moves forward, there are trigger laws that will ban abortion PERIOD. So, no women don't have any choice either.

Men having to have vasectomies is reversible, so not permanent. Seems the men get the better part of the deal. Especially since one of the common arguments is abortion is just used for birth control. Well, men get vasectomies, and can have them reversed when they actually want a family and not just having fun.

Can I use your crystal ball , mine is at the cleaners, last time I checked it I was told that the backlash would end up with woman getting abortions anytime before delivery

[Love2Swim]

Originally Posted by Love2Swim

I would love to see all the men that are against abortion, owning up to their responsibilities and paying a quarter of their salaries in child support. And all the people who insist that these unwanted fetuses be carried to term adopt those children born with severe birth defects and be responsible for their care for many years. While they're at it, they can take over the care of offspring from rape and incest victims. And isn't it interesting that the same people who won't support abortion, also don't want publicly funded health insurance to cover birth control, however its okay for Medicare to cover the generic form of Viagara. And how ironic that these same anti-abortion folks are all in favor of capital punishment.

This is forced birth extremism that treats women not as persons with basic human rights and feelings, but simply as incubators. And let's not forget this is not the end of things. These conservative groups are going to go as far as they can - push against certain types of contraception; sexual intercourse only legal within the bounds of marriage or for the purpose of procreation leaving marriage rights at risk. The only way this has even come to pass is that conservative Supreme court nominees lied in interviews and at their confirmation hearings. Make no mistake, there are no ethics involved here, its all politics as usual.

[dewilson58]

Originally Posted by Love2Swim

This is forced birth extremism that treats women not as persons with basic human rights and feelings, but simply as incubators. .

Thank you for a late morning laugh.

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Love2Swim

This is forced birth extremism that treats women not as persons with basic human rights and feelings, but simply as incubators. And let's not forget this is not the end of things. These conservative groups are going to go as far as they can - push against certain types of contraception; sexual intercourse only legal within the bounds of marriage or for the purpose of procreation leaving marriage rights at risk. The only way this has even come to pass is that conservative Supreme court nominees lied in interviews and at their confirmation hearings. Make no mistake, there are no ethics involved here, its all politics as usual.

[zendog3]

Let me get this straight it should be a crime to about a fetus, but it is perfectly legal to execute a sentient adult human being.

Another thing: We, in this community, are unique compared to discussions going on all over the country. We lived in that Eden where abortion was illegal. We remember when no women had sex before marriage, and all children born had two loving parents with plenty of money to care for their child. No girls suddenly dropped out of high school and lived with their parents until they were old enough to take jobs that did not demand any education so they could rear their unwanted babies alone. It was the Wonderfull era of Father Knows Best, and Ozzie and Harriet. That is the era we want to return to. Do I get that right?

One problem with abortion is that it is so secret that the horror of unwanted pregnancy go unspoken.

[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by Love2Swim

This is forced birth extremism that treats women not as persons with basic human rights and feelings, but simply as incubators. And let's not forget this is not the end of things. These conservative groups are going to go as far as they can - push against certain types of contraception; sexual intercourse only legal within the bounds of marriage or for the purpose of procreation leaving marriage rights at risk. The only way this has even come to pass is that conservative Supreme court nominees lied in interviews and at their confirmation hearings. Make no mistake, there are no ethics involved here, its all politics as usual.

I think better of our justice than you do. Was not happy with some liberal decisions but they are there to make sure we follow our constitution.

Abortions are ok for some situation but at some point the fetus is life and should be allowed to be born. Disgusting when an 8 month fetus is murdered.

[Finchs]

Many conservatives view the abortion issue differently than their party, so the overturning of Roe V Wade finds many of us allied with the liberals on this issue. That's why you will see a HUGE outcry against the overturning. It's both sides of the aisle.
IMO, Women who do not want to be mothers will most likely be horrible mothers if forced to be.

Originally Posted by MartinSE

I don't know the legal definition of murder - I expect it is different in every state, but I am pretty sure it has to do with death/killing of a person/human. You can't "murder" a butterfly or dog - I think.

Consider, if you see a person bleeding out on the side of the road and you don't do anything to help them, did you murder them?

Is abortion murder? If it has to be killing a person, then we circle back to what is a person.

First - define human, then we can decide if something is murder.

[ThirdOfFive]

There is not one argument presented here that hasn't been presented already in a million different places, in a million different forms, a million different times. Agreement is impossible.

My take is a little different. I oppose abortion except in cases where the choice is either - or: either the fetus is aborted or the mother dies. There are very few absolutes in the world any more but I strongly feel that the respect for, and protection of, innocent life is one of those absolutes. If it is not, then EVERYTHING related to life becomes relative and the only thing that matters is how high (or low) we set the bar.

But it is not abortion that is the greater evil. It is, rather, the mindset that allows it.

We would do well to look at history. As a matter of practicality, it is always easier to get rid of something, or someone (or a lot of someones) if we first define it/they as somehow less than human. Easier on the conscience, I suppose. We could look back The process is always the same. First, identify the discrete group whose existence is somehow threatening, dangerous, or just plain in the way. Second, define that group as somehow less than human.

Third, exterminate them.

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk had his Armenians. Stalin had his Ukrainians. Uncle Adolph and his merry brand of brownshirt thugs had his Jews, Romani, mental defectives, etc. Pol Pot had his intellectuals. Slobodan Milosevec had his Bosniaks. And so on. The faces may change. But the PROCESS, except in the method chosen for the extermination, never does.

In 2022 America, the identified untermenschen are the unborn.

Think about it.

[tvbound]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

I don't think it was off topic - the poster I replied to was promoting that states should make the decisions, it was a States Rights issue and the Federal Government should stay out because abortion was not mentioned in the Constitution.

My reply was pointing out there are a lot of places where the Fed's provide a baseline law, and states can then "improve" on that law if they want to.

There are many "unenumerated" rights that we enjoy - right to marry, right to marry people of other races. Right to privacy is not mentioned, you want police to be able to break down your door and barge in because they want to, without a warrant?

This opens a real can of worms (as someone pointed out earlier).

Exactly. What's next, some state's deciding that they're fine with "separate but equal" (not covered in original COTUS/BOR), and hard-earned equality for minorities - is now left up to individual states? A whole lot of racists/bigots/white supremacists, are licking their chops thinking about this huge slippery slope.