[Two Bills]

Originally Posted by Swoop

Going back to work cost you most of your “free” money? Seriously, free money?!? Someone had to earn that money & have it taken from them in the form of taxes and redistribute it to you. It’s not “free”...

If as grumpy says, he was a high earner as an IT Specialist before his job loss, he was supporting other unemployed with his tax contributions whilst in that job.
That is how the system of the richer supporting the poorer is supposed to work.
His only mistake was the word 'free.'
We have the same problem with many calling the UK health system a 'free medical service.'
We pay a lot in tax, and deductions for our 'free' treatment!

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

Public schools were the best in the world and help make the US the largest strongest economy in the world.

The Post office was the model post office in the world. People came from countries all over the world to see how to do what we did.

The Interstate Highway system was a model for the rest of the world and succeeded in giving our economy and businesses a major lift with faster cheaper product and material transportation.

Our space program put a man on the moon in a decade and the spin-off products reverberated throughout the economy making life easier and better for everyone.

I could go on and on. The Government was not the problem.

Predatory capitalism that purchased our government is the problem. Once people and businesses became so rich they were above the law and could purchase politician's souls, our country began the spiral down.

Exactly. Capitalism is important for a society such as America. It's a good thing, I'm a Capitalist, I am a consumer, and I'm fine with that.

But when the government creates a program that WORKS - they need to not sell it to the highest corporate bidder. The moment you do that, it stops being about "we the people" and becomes all about "they the stockholders" or "him the CEO."

It is not the corporations that are by the people, for the people, of the people. That's what the government is for. So programs that help us as a nation need to remain government-overseen and government-run.

Private schools? Great. As long as EVERYONE has the opportunity for a QUALITY public school FIRST. Then you can decide to take Junior out of his QUALITY public school and stick him in parochial school, if that's what you prefer for him. Or homeschool him, or unschool him

Private health care? Awesome. But FIRST - provide basic medical care to ALL residents, citizens or not, of the USA. If they're not a citizen, and they have an infectious disease, treat them so they don't give the disease to YOUR family. If they have a broken bone, or were shot, or are having a heart attack, take care of them so they don't become a burden on society and can return to being productive.

You want these immigrants to NOT be a burden? Then make sure they are able to do what is necessary to keep themselves productive. THAT is capitalism. It is not socialism.

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

Public schools were the best in the world and help make the US the largest strongest economy in the world.

The Post office was the model post office in the world. People came from countries all over the world to see how to do what we did.

The Interstate Highway system was a model for the rest of the world and succeeded in giving our economy and businesses a major lift with faster cheaper product and material transportation.

Our space program put a man on the moon in a decade and the spin-off products reverberated throughout the economy making life easier and better for everyone.

I could go on and on. The Government was not the problem.

Predatory capitalism that purchased our government is the problem. Once people and businesses became so rich they were above the law and could purchase politician's souls, our country began the spiral down.

Public schools WERE, no longer. The gov got involved. Private is better.
The Post Office WAS, no longer. Private is better
Highways "WAS." Nuff said.
Space Program? Private is better
The Gov involvement only produces slaves of the Gov. I am not saying that we have a bad gov, but I am saying that it is getting worse than it ever was. We are becoming Europe and that is not a good thing. We WERE the model for the rest of the world.

The government is too big. We need the gov to motivate, NOT run the country. Americans are becoming drones, dependent on the government. Until someone can absolutely prove different, I believe in our form of Capitalism and the trickle down effect. Why? Because I have lived overseas and KNOW that our low income folks live as well as middle class anywhere else in the world. I know that the rich produce jobs, not the unmotivated. I know many people that have told me that it was far easier to take unemployment and welfare than to take a temp low paying job. The big LIE that comes from certain factions is that low paying, minimum wage paying jobs cannot support a family. Those jobs were NOT meant to support a family. Anyone expecting to do the minimum to support their family, deserves exactly what they get. If they are not motivated to rise above poverty, then they get exactly what they expect. A hand up? Part-time, low paying jobs are expected to be just that, part-time or temporary. I have worked three jobs at once in order to support my family and I knew that I was not going to make those jobs a career choice. I knew that I would rise above that. I had no intention of DOING the minimum and get paid the minimum. I took those jobs rather than accept food stamps or welfare, knowing that there were plenty of jobs out there waiting for me to apply for them. I find no disgrace or embarrassment in the fact that I cleaned toilets for a while. I went from poverty and high debt to debt free and retirement from a six figure income. I am not special. No one GAVE me anything. I worked for it and I did it without the gov interference.
As for politicians being the problem, I can agree to a certain extent. I know that it is the American voters' fault that we elect those that will DO THE MOST FOR US. We need leaders, not givers. They are giving us someone else's money, not theirs. And we will vote for those that bid the highest. The problem with the gov is us.

[Bay Kid]

Originally Posted by Byte1

Public schools WERE, no longer. The gov got involved. Private is better.
The Post Office WAS, no longer. Private is better
Highways "WAS." Nuff said.
Space Program? Private is better
The Gov involvement only produces slaves of the Gov. I am not saying that we have a bad gov, but I am saying that it is getting worse than it ever was. We are becoming Europe and that is not a good thing. We WERE the model for the rest of the world.

The government is too big. We need the gov to motivate, NOT run the country. Americans are becoming drones, dependent on the government. Until someone can absolutely prove different, I believe in our form of Capitalism and the trickle down effect. Why? Because I have lived overseas and KNOW that our low income folks live as well as middle class anywhere else in the world. I know that the rich produce jobs, not the unmotivated. I know many people that have told me that it was far easier to take unemployment and welfare than to take a temp low paying job. The big LIE that comes from certain factions is that low paying, minimum wage paying jobs cannot support a family. Those jobs were NOT meant to support a family. Anyone expecting to do the minimum to support their family, deserves exactly what they get. If they are not motivated to rise above poverty, then they get exactly what they expect. A hand up? Part-time, low paying jobs are expected to be just that, part-time or temporary. I have worked three jobs at once in order to support my family and I knew that I was not going to make those jobs a career choice. I knew that I would rise above that. I had no intention of DOING the minimum and get paid the minimum. I took those jobs rather than accept food stamps or welfare, knowing that there were plenty of jobs out there waiting for me to apply for them. I find no disgrace or embarrassment in the fact that I cleaned toilets for a while. I went from poverty and high debt to debt free and retirement from a six figure income. I am not special. No one GAVE me anything. I worked for it and I did it without the gov interference.
As for politicians being the problem, I can agree to a certain extent. I know that it is the American voters' fault that we elect those that will DO THE MOST FOR US. We need leaders, not givers. They are giving us someone else's money, not theirs. And we will vote for those that bid the highest. The problem with the gov is us.

Public schools in Virginia have the Governors School for top grade students. They allow 5 students per school. Now the govern wants to dumb that down for equality. The same thing that has happened to public schools over the past 60 years will now happen to the governors school. Plus they removed 11th grade excel math courses, for equality. Sad

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

I would like to suggest, again, that Sortition is the solution. It won't happen, since the politicians would have to vote themselves out of a job... but, I believe it would solve the problem of money in politics.

Fancy term for Lottery.
I guess it would make sense to run a country by a form of anarchy. Since everything else has been tried, why not? WE can appoint folks that win the lottery and they can plunder and rule. OR, we can go back to the Constitution and run it according to the Founders' plan. Seemed to work pretty well for some time. How about we ENFORCE our laws instead of modifying existing and producing more redundant laws? Want new laws? How about we start out with term limits? Not going to happen as long as we have law makers that intend to leach from the populace as long as possible. No different than having Supreme Court justices that have a lifetime appointment.

Why not have Congress only meet once every two or there years? They can get into less trouble that way.