[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by chuckpedrey

I would argue that after completing the second year of high school a student should declare their future interest - college or trade. The next 2 years should be focused on either college prep or a trade.

Why? What if they don't want either? What if they don't KNOW what they want by the time they turn 16? They're not even legally old enough to sign a document committing to such a decision, even if they made one.

Some kids go out on their own and do fine, without any aspirations for the future. Some people end up marrying wealthy spouses, and never have to work for pay another day in their lives. Some people inherit their family's money and never have to work for it. Some people are brought into their family business from the time they're very young, and don't need anything more than the satisfaction of completing high school.

I didn't know "what I want to be when I grow up" until the end of my second year of college. That was when I was required to declare a major. I ended up not going into the field. If I had to choose when I was 16, my choice would likely have been "something in the medical profession." And I would've flunked out, because I was really bad with math and only so-so with physical sciences.

[CybrSage]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

I don't agree that most people go to graduate school. That is not what the data shows.

Quote me saying most people went to graduate school.

When you cannot, explain why you are acting as if I did.

I went to graduate school because my employer paid for it as well as continuing to pay my salary. To me, borrowing money to attend graduate school without employer support is a financial mistake.

How many decades ago was that? Your experiences from the last millennium are no longer applicable to today's college prices.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

Recently, there are a lot of news stories, news outlets, and polls that are promoting young people to skip college and to go to a trade school. However, most people promoting this idea are very wealthy mostly because they have one or more college degrees.

My advice to recent high school graduates is to get a college degree as soon as possible. Anyone can do it.

This is my opinion, but I would like to hear other opinions.

Lots of generalities and assumptions underlying this post:

1) Not true, anyone can get a college degree. True: a very large proportion can get a degree. Reason: graduation requirements are different, depending upon where you go.

2) Going to college does count as structural development, its treated as a success bar to enter the workforce in many jobs, being an HR defense screening tool.

3) Many/high proportion of college graduations don't work in the degree area with which they graduated. my XWife, my son, my daughter and my career path is not what we studied for, so is that justification for not going to a structured learning process while a brain is still developing?

4) Alternatives to everything / different points of view are created from different experiences, and from alternative paths to success. . that means there is a path which is best for each individual, so the generalities shouldn't apply. The problem is that it's difficult to predict where a person will end up, the future is very uncertain.

5) The narrative of skipping college may have been created by two scenarios:

a. The cost of college with graduation debt and falling incomes and opportunities creates a financially risky scenario for many graduates and parents

b. The shortage of blue collar skills / employees and corporate available training programs. Many companies have forgone training programs due to competitors poaching, and cost cutting, expecting public educational institutions to provide employees for the workforce.


In the end, its very difficult to predict where a high school graduate will land, and therefore, alternatives will always be available, but each individual has to pick and live with the consequences, which will be unknown at the time. That has always been scenario of life, nothing has changed.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

I don't agree that most people go to graduate school. That is not what the data shows.

I went to graduate school because my employer paid for it as well as continuing to pay my salary. To me, borrowing money to attend graduate school without employer support is a financial mistake.

I'm grateful that millions of medical professionals disagree with you.

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by CybrSage

Quote me saying most people went to graduate school.

When you cannot, explain why you are acting as if I did.



How many decades ago was that? Your experiences from the last millennium are no longer applicable to today's college prices.

I was referring to your comment that, "what you personally would do is irrelevant to what most people do." If you think I was quoting you, I apologize. But, I stand by my opinion that borrowing money to attend graduate school, unless you are learning a specific skill, like medicine, nursing, or other technical skill, is a financial mistake that many people make.

[CybrSage]

IMO, if the degree is a useful one, such as a STEM field, medical, and fields where it is actually important and useful,then it is a god path to follow.

If one is going to college because that is what one doe, the. It is a waste of money. Learn a trade first, gain skills and some real money, then if you want to go to college for something useful, you will be set to do it. Become a grown up first.

And then we have people like me who went into the military because I could not afford college. I then CLEPed my degree, which gained me nothing but the ability to say I have a degree in nuclear engineering technologies. That and $2.25 will get me a cup of coffee.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by CybrSage

IMO, if the degree is a useful one, such as a STEM field, medical, and fields where it is actually important and useful,then it is a god path to follow.

If one is going to college because that is what one doe, the. It is a waste of money. Learn a trade first, gain skills and some real money, then if you want to go to college for something useful, you will be set to do it. Become a grown up first.

And then we have people like me who went into the military because I could not afford college. I then CLEPed my degree, which gained me nothing but the ability to say I have a degree in nuclear engineering technologies. That and $2.25 will get me a cup of coffee.

Our tax dollars for military spending at work, here.

[jimhoward]

Originally Posted by CybrSage

IMO, if the degree is a useful one, such as a STEM field, medical, and fields where it is actually important and useful,then it is a god path to follow.

If one is going to college because that is what one doe, the. It is a waste of money. Learn a trade first, gain skills and some real money, then if you want to go to college for something useful, you will be set to do it. Become a grown up first.

And then we have people like me who went into the military because I could not afford college. I then CLEPed my degree, which gained me nothing but the ability to say I have a degree in nuclear engineering technologies. That and $2.25 will get me a cup of coffee.

Why do assign so little value to your Nuclear Engineering background? It is an interesting and important subject. Did you lose interest in it?

[Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

So maybe there's something to the notion that a higher education gives you a better shot at wealth. Even if your art is weird. You'll still get paid more, using your examples as the comparisons.

The richest person without ever attending college is John D. Rockefeller
Bill Gates: Dropped out of Harvard.
Mark Zuckerberg: Dropped out of Harvard.
Michael Dell: Dropped out of the University of Texas at Austin
Larry Ellison: Dropped out of the University of Illinois and the University of Chicago
Sir Richard Branson: The founder of the Virgin Group never attended college
Oprah Winfrey: Dropped out of Tennessee State University after one semester
Ted Turner: Was rejected by Harvard and Princeton, ultimately skipping college

[jimhoward]

Most of the great discoveries and advances in the world are made by people below the age of 30. I like to see people learn and study and grow and take risks at young ages. The idea that people should grow up fast and choose a low-risk vocational money-making field early I think is limiting.

[MJanota]

Originally Posted by CarlR33

Trade schools do give a degree? Police work is another profession with good pay and in high demand. They do all the training and you get a new police car when completed. Yea, police work is not glamorous but like a teacher you can retire at an early age.

Graduating from a trade or vocational school typically earns you a Certificate or Diploma. After a prescribed apprenticeship, the graduate is entitled to take a licensing exam to earn a specifi license. (ie: E2 progressing to E1 for Electricians, S2 progressing to S1 for Plumbers, etc).

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Jayhawk

The richest person without ever attending college is John D. Rockefeller
Bill Gates: Dropped out of Harvard.
Mark Zuckerberg: Dropped out of Harvard.
Michael Dell: Dropped out of the University of Texas at Austin
Larry Ellison: Dropped out of the University of Illinois and the University of Chicago
Sir Richard Branson: The founder of the Virgin Group never attended college
Oprah Winfrey: Dropped out of Tennessee State University after one semester
Ted Turner: Was rejected by Harvard and Princeton, ultimately skipping college

All true. Zuck attended college. Dell attended college. Ellison attended college. Oprah attended college. All proving the point that education beyond High School diploma or GED can give you an advantage in acquiring wealth.

Turner inherited his initial wealth. He was a millionaire when his father killed himself. Proves my point that inheriting is one way of becoming wealthy without getting a higher education beyond a GED or HS Diploma.

Branson is an exception to the rule, however he came from a wealthy family.

Rockefeller took a business course after high school - the equivalent of what would have been considered "trade school" at the time. Again - proving my point about education beyond HS diploma or GED being advantageous with regards to future wealth.

Higher education - regardless of its source, is an INVESTMENT into your future. Even if you do nothing career-wise with your education, simply having it can open doors for you that (unless you're that special exception like Branson) - you might not otherwise have.

It "increases your chances" of wealth. It doesn't guarantee it.

Just like having only a GED or HS Diploma "decreases your chances" of wealth. It doesn't block it.

[PLedoux]

My son has two sons. The older one barely made it through high school due to emotional stress and lack of interest. He did , however, get into a 4-year college and took out loans to be able to go. We should all have seen the writing on the wall, but we watched him struggle through 6 years of a state school and still not graduate. What he has now is a load of debt (not tin the millions- it was a state school) and no degree. Also no job. This kid got into college based primarily on his SAT scores, so, not dumb. Just not motivated.
His brother made it clear from his freshman year that no one could make him go to college - he wanted a trade school because he wanted to work with his hands. And he didn’t want any debt starting out. This kid aced his trade school education, enjoyed every minute of the learning and is happily employed in a well paying job with great benefits. And he goes to work happy every day doing what he loves. He eventually wants to teach machining, and knows he will need more schooling to do that, so he is putting money aside now so he won’t have to take out loans to do it.

Not everyone CAN get a college education. Not everyone wants to get a college education. Not everyone can pay for a college education. And, probably most importantly, we need people to do the work that trades people do. (We have had three tradespeople to our house in the last two weeks.)
Please stop telling kids they must go to college. It is NOT for everyone. And it is not a plan that works for the world.

[CybrSage]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Our tax dollars for military spending at work, here.

What is the intent of this post?

[raananh]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

.... I countered by explaining that your examples are really bad examples of "people who got rich without college."

If you want to provide examples of rich people who didn't go to college, Da Vinci and Van Gogh are NOT part of that subset. Meanwhile, the examples YOU provided from Rouschenberg and Cattelan are of the subset of people who DID go to college and got rich - which is exactly the opposite of the point that I believe you were trying to make.

Whether their art is appealing to you or not, it was appealing enough to people to make them rich - and famous.

Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Ellison, Michael Dell and many others dropped out of College. Also many intellectuals, scientists, innovators, etc never went to college.

VAST MAJORITY of best-in-class students of top universities (i.e. nerds), proven by many studies, do not become Rich or very rich. Actually, a large percentage of them become relative failures. I am sure this is not a surprise for you!

Just this fact tells you that education does not guarantee anything.

To become very successful, also as for making lots of money, it's mostly your personality, motivation, people-skills, intuition, natural intellect, and quite a lot of luck.

None(!!) of these things you get from college. None!!!!

You are still stuck with "money = success", also when it comes to Art.

Vincent Van-Gogh was a total failure: mentally ill, never made a penny, dirt poor, rejected. He had a talent, not from studies at college. My Meme was about "educated" people who can't even get close to the [natural] talent of many who never studied the field they become famous in.