[John Mayes]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

How is it a conflation? Either LIFE is precious or it isn't.

The supposition is a bit of a stretch I will agree.

The conflation is trying to awkwardly combine two completely different issues. One very political and the other very sad. I agree 100% that LIFE is very precious. The action, or lack thereof, by the police in Uvalde is completely unacceptable and embarrassing.

[Michael G.]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

My wife just pointed out that Beau of the 5th Column, on Youtube, did a piece this, and pointed out that the Supreme Court has as far back as 1981 ruled that the police have no obligation or legal responsibility to PROTECT people. The only legal obligation is to arrest them. If this is true, then the chances are that nothing can be done (like suing the officers). They according to this are not required to do anything to protect people. So much for the Protect and Defend on police cars.

Police are working under a term I heard some time ago called "common law."

True story:

I friend of mine went to (Of all places) a outdoor church picnic. He was in a group of 4 friends and were being harassed by a gang of troublemakers in the parking lot for parking to close.

One of my friend's buddies was told by the troublemakers they were going to kill him that night

My friend approached a police officer on the grounds and said they were being threaten. The officer said until he sees someone doing harm, he cannot do anything.

The next morning my friend got the terrible news they did indeed kill his good friend, and the killer was awaiting trial.

The family sue the officer that was working that night, went to court and LOST the case.

Reason, the officer was there to protect all people not just one person or persons under "common law."

Sad world we live in.

[Sarah_W]

Originally Posted by Michael G.

Police are working under a term I heard some time ago called "common law."

True story:

I friend of mine went to (Of all places) a outdoor church picnic. He was in a group of 4 friends and were being harassed by a gang of troublemakers in the parking lot for parking to close.

One of my friend's buddies was told by the troublemakers they were going to kill him that night

My friend approached a police officer on the grounds and said they were being threaten. The officer said until he sees someone doing harm, he cannot do anything.

The next morning my friend got the terrible news they did indeed kill his good friend, and the killer was awaiting trial.

The family sue the officer that was working that night, went to court and LOST the case.

Reason, the officer was there to protect all people not just one person or persons under "common law."

Sad world we live in.

That is a horrible story. We all need to realize our safety and our security is our own responsibility. If we don't or can't defend ourselves and choose to outsource our security we will be disappointed in the result in the best case and not survive in the worst case.

[jswirs]

Originally Posted by Sarah_W

That is a horrible story. We all need to realize our safety and our security is our own responsibility. If we don't or can't defend ourselves and choose to outsource our security we will be disappointed in the result in the best case and not survive in the worst case.

If someone threatens your life, here in Fl. , the police can do nothing. Unless there is direct physical harm or a weapon is pointed at you, the police can only be reactive, not proactive.

[SilverRose]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

They just issued a 77-page report on the Uvalde school shooting citing "systemic failures". I think it could have been a one-page report saying that the armed police officers on the scene didn't enter the classroom and shoot the suspect because they were afraid of getting shot themselves.

It turns out that police have no obligation to protect the public. This has been ruled in numerous court cases, from state courts to the Supreme Court. The latest was in the Parkland School shooting. The court ruled that the police had no obligation to attempt to save the lives of the students.
The police have no legal liability for the dead students and teachers at Uvalde.
Do the Police Have an Obligation to Protect You? - FindLaw

[Blackbird45]

You have to face reality, to blame the police for not doing what was expected of them is understandable, but they also want to go home at the end of their shift and see their families. The shooting at the Tops Supermarket in Buffalo, the guard did what was expected of him and died, and the shooter kept killing people. Yesterday a good guy with a gun did stop a shooter in a food court, but that is rare. There is a problem in this country, and it cannot be solved with a good guy with a gun or trying to figure out who is mentally unfit to own a firearm. It might not be what people want to hear and I'm sure it will not eliminate all mass shooting, but there has to be more control over the firearms. It could be restricting what type firearms can be sold or making the owners financially responsible for the weapon in their possession. I'm not sure exactly what, but whatever we are doing at the moment is not working.

[mydavid]

Originally Posted by Sarah_W

ALERRT is the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training center in Texas. They provide various training to Law Enforcement personnel. Their report on the responding officers actions is very telling. The report can be downloaded here: Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training:
Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training

The most horrifying issue to me, is after Ramos crashed the pickup he was driving two employees from a Funeral Home began walking toward him to offer assistance. He began shooting at them and they fled. An officer witnessed this, stopped his vehicle and with his own AR had Ramos in his sights. The officer then called his supervisor for permission to take the shot. He knew Ramos was dangerous and he knew that Ramos was walking across a field toward the school carrying a rifle. He asked a second time for permission but Ramos reached the unlocked door of the school. That officer could have ended this tragic event at the beginning.

Officers entered the school within 3 minutes of Ramos entering the school and failed to press into the classroom and engage the shooter. Instead Ramos was left unchecked for 77 minutes. Precious time that would have saved many of the lives of those who bled out during that time, including the children who were still alive dialing 911 and the teacher who was wounded and dialed 911. Had medical help been available in those early minutes the death toll would have been much less.

The interim report from the Texas House of Representatives investigation can be found here: https://static.texastribune.org/medi...0Committee.pdf

I'm a professional firearms instructor and teach people to be competent with their firearm, as in accurate and fast.

It is grossly apparent to me in watching the video of the conduct in the hallway that the responding officers were totally not trained for this. Anyone stepping into that hallway would be afraid. The brave person can push through the fear and with the confidence of their training, get the job done. The coward stays in the hallway while children bleed out.

There are practical solutions that will stop so many of these mass shootings if our society will just implement them. The same goes for the daily killings in cities like Chicago, St. Louis, Baltimore, etc.

So much for a good guy with a gun, a lot of guys with guns but none with balls.

[Dot Rheinhardt]

One word:cowards.

[Byte1]

Schools' physical security needs to be hardened, meaning making it more difficult for the bad guy to get to the children. Police forces should have better training. Example would be to hire former Seal Team members as training consultants. Seals train constantly for hostage situations and rescue. The SWAT team where I used to live had a training day EVERY week. Barricade and hostage situations were always addressed. Our snipers were trained by experts in the military and trained at the FBI academy when available. Gun control should be at the bottom of the list, as a bad guy can always obtain a gun, make a bomb, or find other innovative means to murder.
1. Physical security/hardening targets
2. Specialized training

[oneclickplus]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

They just issued a 77-page report on the Uvalde school shooting citing "systemic failures". I think it could have been a one-page report saying that the armed police officers on the scene didn't enter the classroom and shoot the suspect because they were afraid of getting shot themselves.

And, compare that to a 22-year-old armed citizen (not military or police) who just used his hand gun to stop a mall shooting in seconds.

Simple solution to attempted mass shootings? Someone shooting back QUICKLY. I mean, we call 911 expecting an armed response (one that Uvalde didn't get). The sooner, the better, right? These criminals assume no opposition; at least not quickly. Bet that recent mall shooter was surprised at the bullets flying in his direction ... for the few seconds he was alive to ponder that mystery. No arrest, no trial, no prison expenses.

Sorry for those injured / killed. Happy and thankful for so many more (he had hundreds of rounds of ammunition on him) that didn't have that fate as a result of a quick, armed response.

[PugMom]

Originally Posted by Kenswing

Then you have a normal citizen that takes action. Maybe Uvalde PD should hire this guy.

Indiana mall shooting: Live updates | AP News

Thank God for good guys with guns. HE is the hero.

[PugMom]

Originally Posted by Byte1

Schools' physical security needs to be hardened, meaning making it more difficult for the bad guy to get to the children. Police forces should have better training. Example would be to hire former Seal Team members as training consultants. Seals train constantly for hostage situations and rescue. The SWAT team where I used to live had a training day EVERY week. Barricade and hostage situations were always addressed. Our snipers were trained by experts in the military and trained at the FBI academy when available. Gun control should be at the bottom of the list, as a bad guy can always obtain a gun, make a bomb, or find other innovative means to murder.
1. Physical security/hardening targets
2. Specialized training

i couldn't have said it better! i repeat: we have more police &/or guards @ a BANK than we do protecting schools.

[Blackbird45]

Originally Posted by Byte1

Schools' physical security needs to be hardened, meaning making it more difficult for the bad guy to get to the children. Police forces should have better training. Example would be to hire former Seal Team members as training consultants. Seals train constantly for hostage situations and rescue. The SWAT team where I used to live had a training day EVERY week. Barricade and hostage situations were always addressed. Our snipers were trained by experts in the military and trained at the FBI academy when available. Gun control should be at the bottom of the list, as a bad guy can always obtain a gun, make a bomb, or find other innovative means to murder.
1. Physical security/hardening targets
2. Specialized training

What would be a perfect solution instead of spending all that money fortifying schools and hiring armed ex-military. Teach our children in prisons, we have enough of them, there hard to get into and there are armed guards there 24/7.

[Sarah_W]

Originally Posted by Blackbird45

You have to face reality, to blame the police for not doing what was expected of them is understandable, but they also want to go home at the end of their shift and see their families. The shooting at the Tops Supermarket in Buffalo, the guard did what was expected of him and died, and the shooter kept killing people. Yesterday a good guy with a gun did stop a shooter in a food court, but that is rare. There is a problem in this country, and it cannot be solved with a good guy with a gun or trying to figure out who is mentally unfit to own a firearm. It might not be what people want to hear and I'm sure it will not eliminate all mass shooting, but there has to be more control over the firearms. It could be restricting what type firearms can be sold or making the owners financially responsible for the weapon in their possession. I'm not sure exactly what, but whatever we are doing at the moment is not working.

There are other solutions to greatly reduce mass shootings and yet people don't want to consider them as well.

Motive

What is the motive to enter a school, grocery store, or mall and shoot people that the Shooter doesn't even know? We see time and time again that they were fascinated with previous mass shootings. Are they trying to "beat the score", like a video game? Are they seeking fame? I can imagine in their mind that fame and infamy are one and the same. That motive can be removed by never mentioning their name to the public. Keep it in official reports only. The media can stop sensationalizing these horrific stories.

Security

I hear time and time again that people don't want to turn schools into prisons. A person can't walk into a Federal building, a County Court house, an airport, etc. with a gun. Why is that? What does a federal building have that is more important to protect than children? This short video on YouTube illustrates the safest school in America. For the cost of the upgrades they implemented, it could be done nation wide for much less than we send to other countries for their security. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcpsnrxHdCc

Defense

I understand that people are uncomfortable with teachers being armed. I understand that many teachers would not want to be armed. There are other options.

1). Florida implemented, by statute, the Guardian Program named for Coach Aaron Feis from the Parkland shooting. You can read the statute here: Statutes & Constitution
:View Statutes
:

Online Sunshine

The requirements to be a school guardian are significant. I believe the number of Florida schools that have a guardian is over 80%.

2) Every classroom should have an alarm, similar to a fire alarm, that when pulled emits a different tone so every person knows there is a shooter. That alarm should also alert authorities at their precinct as well as mobile units. There could be a "Black Alert" similar to Blue Alerts or Silver Alerts. The sooner someone engages the shooter the more lives will be saved. For teachers who are willing to be armed (with required training) a handgun can easily be stored in a biometric safe that only the teachers finger prints can open. Children could never access it.

3) A gun safe could be installed in every principals office with appropriate gear and weapons.

4) Non-lethal response options. The Byrna pepper launcher uses CO2 to launch proprietary pepper rounds much like aiming a pistol. There are currently over 200 Police departments evaluating it as an alternative to tasers. The pepper round is a mix of tear gas and capsaicin. It stops an assailant in their tracks without killing them. If a child happened to get a hold of the Byrna it won't kill anybody. Here are a couple of videos demonstrating it's effectivity:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04neU4UU974

Police officer giving it a try

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5db0qRMJSfs

Galveston Texas Police used one against an aggressive Felon. They stopped a dangerous situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkQWv03aHkU

There are a lot of options that should be considered. People a lot smarter than me can come up with other solutions. We can greatly reduce mass shootings without infringing on the Rights of law abiding citizens.

Incidentally, I am a dealer for Byrna if anyone is interested. A great solution for home, auto, and personal defense when you want a non-lethal option.

[Blackbird45]

Though many people believe that arming teachers is a good idea. It's a great idea until a teacher flips out and starts shooting their students and no one can bring a person to that point more than children. There has been more than one incident of a teacher physically attacking a student. As far as fortifying the school, if the gunman really wants to kill children they'll wait until they're coming out at the end of the day or in the school yard. There are many countries where you will see arm guards with automatic weapons on their shoulder everywhere. Is that how you really want to live.