[Topspinmo]

I went through all outlets and switches why see breaker circuit number on covers.


I have couple something at bottom with lights, one bright green and other dimly lite green? Top picture with garage light on and bottom picture with garage light off. Or just color difference between two? None rest breaker have lights. Circuit 22 outlet was problem child which comes out of main breaker panel. I replaced outlet seems to fix my intermittent problem so far? No stray voltage readings either.

[villagetinker]

Originally Posted by Topspinmo

I went through all outlets and switches why see breaker circuit number on covers.


I have couple something at bottom with lights, one bright green and other dimly lite green? Top picture with garage light on and bottom picture with garage light off. Or just color difference between two? None rest breaker have lights. Circuit 22 outlet was problem child which comes out of main breaker panel. I replaced outlet seems to fix my intermittent problem so far? No stray voltage readings either.

I am GUESSING you have some form of surge arrestor, with the green lights indicating the protection is working. The reason I am guessing is most of the surge protection systems I have seen actually have a circuit breaker supplying the device, so i am not sure exactly what this device is.
You could try contacting the manufacturer of the circuit breaker panel and asking them what this device is.

[FredMitchell]

I forgot to mention in my earlier post - I believe that the intermittent problem was more severe when the garage gets hot - breaker panel location. The most recent failure was two breakers, garage outlets, which only had water softener on, but would fail even when not plugged in, and the refrigerator! Both Eaton and Pike's Electric both said that temperature would NOT cause this. This experiment suggests otherwise.

I opened the garage doors for about an hour from 9PM to 10 PM and turned both breakers back on at the end. They did not trip at all overnight. I replaced them both in the morning. It is a sweaty job in a 95F+ garage.

BTW. In each of the three cases, the fault indication was 6 flashes pointing to the BREAKER SELF-TEST as the problem! That further makes me believe that temperature played a role in the failures.

[RoadToad]

Maybe this will help:
do arc fault breakers have an indicator light on them - Google Search

Shades of Green apparantly meaningless.
White=Tripped Green=Not tripped

[Malsua]

Originally Posted by villagetinker

I am GUESSING you have some form of surge arrestor, with the green lights indicating the protection is working. The reason I am guessing is most of the surge protection systems I have seen actually have a circuit breaker supplying the device, so i am not sure exactly what this device is.
You could try contacting the manufacturer of the circuit breaker panel and asking them what this device is.

No need to contact the manufacturer. It is indeed a surge protector. It is simply a breaker style panel surge. It is a type II panel surge protection device as opposed to a type 1 that Seco or Duke would put in the meter pan.

That said it is an Eaton CQH style surge protector and it is listed to be in a Square D panel(despite being built by Eaton) but it's the old style. Type II SPDs, of which that is one do have a finite life. The green lights indicate when it thinks it's no longer functioning, but I can tell you that it's old enough that it should probably be replaced. The new panel based surges clamp faster. Modern SPDs, particularly those with with thyristors or MOSFETs, can achieve faster clamping times than traditional MOV-based SPDs.

If one really wants to be protected properly, a breaker based Eaton Ultra sitting on a 50amp breaker would be the best. The breaker plug-in style surges are often quite limited in the amount of protection they offer. I think that particular one is 18ka. Here in central Florida, lightning capital of the USA, that's like a butterfly trying to stop a hurricane. Sure, it's doing something, but in the end it's nothing. The Eaton Ultra will have six times more surge current capacity.

Also, whenever I'm in a panel, I can always tell when a non-pro installed it, because they didn't shorten the leads. The leads to the SPD from the breaker should be as short as possible.

[Spartan86]

Originally Posted by FredMitchell

If your breaker is an Eaton 20A AFCI/GFC1, (BRP120DF, for example) you can determine the cause of the trip from the number of LED flashes on the breaker. They have a video for doing that. Or see, this There is also a lawsuit against them for two series of those breakers. I have replaced 3 this year that started tripping intermittently, including one that had nothing plugged into any of the sockets. Eaton will replace the breaker free of charge (BRP120A1CS BR PON, the older one is discontinued. 3-5 days shipping). The replacement breaker is about $68.00 at Lowes.

As to labeling the circuit number on the plate, you can label it on the inside of the plate. Looks less cheezy and you only have to take out one screw to see it.

HTH.

Hey Fred,
Timely post. I have an intermittent trip on an AFCI circuit running an Eaton BR PON type breaker. If I understand your post correctly, those are potential problem children and the newer BR with the dedicated neutral wire are the solution? Did/do you call or email Eaton to discuss replacement?
Thanks.

[Topspinmo]

Ok, finely done. When through every breaker for correct amp outlets and wired correctly using multimeter ensure no stray voltages. Replaced all 15 amp outlets on 20 amp circuit (i know I didn’t have to but outside outlets was really corroded), couple in kitchen so I replaced them also. The outside GFI outlets was really corroded due to originals to house over 22 years old. Tested all outlets to make wired correctly found two that was wired backwards. While I was add it I made diagram of breakers, what amps and what was on that circuit. I also numbered all outlets and switches with corresponding breaker so I know what on circuit. I also found two loose connections during process which could be problems down road that was avoided. Should be good to good for another 20 years?

[Altavia]

Nicely done!

Went through that and then some for a house with aluminum wiring many years ago.

[Maker]

Originally Posted by Topspinmo

... Replaced all 15 amp outlets on 20 amp circuit

There are plenty of differences between cheap outlets and good ones. Hope you spent a few extra dollars on good ones since you spent your time to change them.

Cheap outlets require connecting wire directly under the screws. They may have a place to push the wire into a hole on the back, but it makes contact with just a springy metal bar, and they fail often (total failure or poor connection that becomes a fire risk when high current is drawn). Plugs are not held tightly and droop (or fall out) at the slightest tug of the wire.

Good outlets have a hole on the back where the wire is inserted. It's captured between 2 metal plates, and the side screws tightens the plates together. Makes a very solid connection and they never fail. Plugs retention is excellent.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by Maker

There are plenty of differences between cheap outlets and good ones. Hope you spent a few extra dollars on good ones since you spent your time to change them.

Cheap outlets require connecting wire directly under the screws. They may have a place to push the wire into a hole on the back, but it makes contact with just a springy metal bar, and they fail often (total failure or poor connection that becomes a fire risk when high current is drawn). Plugs are not held tightly and droop (or fall out) at the slightest tug of the wire.

Good outlets have a hole on the back where the wire is inserted. It's captured between 2 metal plates, and the side screws tightens the plates together. Makes a very solid connection and they never fail. Plugs retention is excellent.

The ones I got have metal plate sandwiching the wire between plates and screw not against wires. Outside I occasionally run 9 and 15 amp chain saws on long extension cord (only have two palms left) reason I didn’t like 15A sockets on outside outlets. I was surprised how badly they were corroded, even some of the copper wires was corroded, has to sand prone get good connections (i didn’t want to cut ends off due shorten wires making harder to connect).

I also didn’t like 15A outlets over kitchen counters due toaster, air fryer, others appliances used in those outlets. I’m satisfied with outlets and circuit 22 which lead me down rabbit hole. Looks like the outlet on 22 was problem all along. Wires were originally reversed, and then the loose ground plate screw in housing, and lastly the outlet. That outlet came directly out of main breaker box with no other on circuit. Only thing I didn’t do was open up main breaker, I am reluctant to do that unless I absolutely have to.

Thanks all for help and guidance, so far so good!

[jrref]

Originally Posted by Malsua

No need to contact the manufacturer. It is indeed a surge protector. It is simply a breaker style panel surge. It is a type II panel surge protection device as opposed to a type 1 that Seco or Duke would put in the meter pan.

That said it is an Eaton CQH style surge protector and it is listed to be in a Square D panel(despite being built by Eaton) but it's the old style. Type II SPDs, of which that is one do have a finite life. The green lights indicate when it thinks it's no longer functioning, but I can tell you that it's old enough that it should probably be replaced. The new panel based surges clamp faster. Modern SPDs, particularly those with with thyristors or MOSFETs, can achieve faster clamping times than traditional MOV-based SPDs.

If one really wants to be protected properly, a breaker based Eaton Ultra sitting on a 50amp breaker would be the best. The breaker plug-in style surges are often quite limited in the amount of protection they offer. I think that particular one is 18ka. Here in central Florida, lightning capital of the USA, that's like a butterfly trying to stop a hurricane. Sure, it's doing something, but in the end it's nothing. The Eaton Ultra will have six times more surge current capacity.

Also, whenever I'm in a panel, I can always tell when a non-pro installed it, because they didn't shorten the leads. The leads to the SPD from the breaker should be as short as possible.

I always recommend either the Eaton Ultra or the PSP Vortex Type-2 surge protectors installed at the circuit breaker panel. The PSP uses a gas discharge tube to protect the MOVs and the MOVs are also thermally protected which will make the protector last longer. On the other hand, the Eaton Ultra uses only "standard" MOVs but it has such a high surge current capacity, 108KA that it will also last a very long time since most induced surges, from studies, are significantly less than that max. The circuit breaker type surge protectors have a much lower surge current capacity which is why they are not as good and fail more often but they are better than nothing. The Type-1 surge protector from the power utility mounted at the electrical meter is designed mainly to block and or manage surges coming from the power utility. The internal circuitry is slightly different than what's in the Eaton or PSP protectors and subsequently their warranty does not cover any device with an electronic circuit chip in it.

[Blueblaze]

Former licensed electrician here.

There is no problem using "15A" receps on a 20A circuit, unless the circuit is dedicated to a device that requires it, like the charging port for your golf cart in your garage. The "rating" refers to the prongs, not the electrical capacity of the outlet. 20a receps are intended for a dedicated 20A single-outlet circuit, and have a "T"-shaped ground prong, although ordinary 15A plugs will also plug into it.

On the issue of a breaker intermittently popping, all of the solutions mentioned are typical. But I discovered one very atypical problem in my Courtyard Villa rental, shortly after I bought it, several years ago. The 3-way circuit in the dining room would occasionally pop the breaker. None of the usual solutions fixed it, so I began to suspect that the wire was damaged somehow. It ran through a narrow area in the attic that I couldn't get to, so I just pulled on it. There was a brief flash and the breaker popped. I disconnected the wire in the attic and then removed the box from the wall, so I could reach up with my pliers and remove the staples, to pull the wire out of the wall.

A couple of inches above the staple crease there was a black spot, and in the middle of that was staple. Not a staple like you use to install wiring. It was the thin wire staple they use at the factory to secure the end of a new roll of romex to the side of the wooden spool. You're supposed to cut it off when you start a new roll. But the idiot who wired that house didn't bother to do that, and instead had used a wire with a staple sticking out of it. It miraculously sorta worked, because the staple wasn't making contact all the time, at least until I jerked on it.

This house had gone 15 years with a wire that occasionally sparked when the heat and humidity expanded the wire enough to make contact with that staple, and nobody in that 15 years had bothered to fix it. Between the idiot electrician and the prior owner who wasn't worried about his house burning down, it was a level of stupidity impossible to comprehend. What's frightening to me is the number of houses in The Villages that electrician must have wired.

[Altavia]

These kind of faults are ones the Ting is intended to detect. Some insurances companies provide them for free.

Ting - Electrical Fire Safety, Simplified - Smart+Proactive=Prevention

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by Blueblaze

Former licensed electrician here.

There is no problem using "15A" receps on a 20A circuit, unless the circuit is dedicated to a device that requires it, like the charging port for your golf cart in your garage. The "rating" refers to the prongs, not the electrical capacity of the outlet. 20a receps are intended for a dedicated 20A single-outlet circuit, and have a "T"-shaped ground prong, although ordinary 15A plugs will also plug into it.

On the issue of a breaker intermittently popping, all of the solutions mentioned are typical. But I discovered one very atypical problem in my Courtyard Villa rental, shortly after I bought it, several years ago. The 3-way circuit in the dining room would occasionally pop the breaker. None of the usual solutions fixed it, so I began to suspect that the wire was damaged somehow. It ran through a narrow area in the attic that I couldn't get to, so I just pulled on it. There was a brief flash and the breaker popped. I disconnected the wire in the attic and then removed the box from the wall, so I could reach up with my pliers and remove the staples, to pull the wire out of the wall.

A couple of inches above the staple crease there was a black spot, and in the middle of that was staple. Not a staple like you use to install wiring. It was the thin wire staple they use at the factory to secure the end of a new roll of romex to the side of the wooden spool. You're supposed to cut it off when you start a new roll. But the idiot who wired that house didn't bother to do that, and instead had used a wire with a staple sticking out of it. It miraculously sorta worked, because the staple wasn't making contact all the time, at least until I jerked on it.

This house had gone 15 years with a wire that occasionally sparked when the heat and humidity expanded the wire enough to make contact with that staple, and nobody in that 15 years had bothered to fix it. Between the idiot electrician and the prior owner who wasn't worried about his house burning down, it was a level of stupidity impossible to comprehend. What's frightening to me is the number of houses in The Villages that electrician must have wired.

Agree, I’m not electrician just what I know from troubleshooting on dinosaur aircraft engines. I know just enough to not get myself in trouble. I too was surprised amount of errors made when house was built. Like nobody licensed looking over the apprentice. I think I finely got to top of my mole hill, but time will tell.