[sowilts]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

How many people here, have ever hired a Consultant and expected to the Consultant to publicly disagree with the official position?

There was no way the consultant was going to say: "You guys are a doing a crappy job of maintaining your golf courses and you all should be fired". Without saying it in words, I think the District has already conceded they haven't done a great job of maintaining the courses and have found themselves behind the curve.

I think we're going to see an entirely new attitude towards maintaining the Executive Courses, over the next year or two. It takes time to stop the current momentum and revamp the process. We are dealing with government and change comes slowly.

As for the report, my opinion is ...

"Trees" are the bane of golf courses. Roots and canopies do more to prevent grass from growing, than El Nino ever thought of.

If you don't properly maintain your greens, your organic layer increases every year and eventually you choke off the grass ... it just won't grow. I have never seen a green in TV get a deep core aeration. It may happen, but I've never seen it. #1 problem with greens.

There's too much traffic on the golf courses. Shocking news.

The "Landscapers" aren't held accountable. More shocking news.

We need a long-term plan, with identifiable goals and performance standards. Yep

We need to convert to newer strains of Bermuda. Already in progress.

We need to review our contracts and improve them. Even Mitch admitted that, at a PWAC meeting.

Traqmatz is a pretty cool product, but at $4/sq. ft., it's fairly costly.

It became abundantly clear that the District got the message, when they came up with the El Nino story and then brought in the USGA. We can all complain that it's too little too late, but at this point, things can only improve.

Now I'm about to put on my Flak Jacket.

In my opinion, we cannot sustain the Executive Golf courses, unless they are operated 100%, "Cart Path Only". You can not like it. You can disagree with it. You can say it's unfair. It's a fact. If you want reasonable conditions year round, get rid of the carts.

The truth is, if you can't walk the few steps it requires to play an Executive Course, without driving on the fairway, you really need to choose another sport. Your days as a golfer are behind you. I understand the MickyLee Pitch & Putt has plenty of Tee Times available.

If I were TV King for a Day, I'd pick out 5-10 Executive Golf courses and make them completely "walking only".

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

I thought the idea of Executive par 3 holes was to hit the green. Why do they have fairways. Par four holes can be traditional. That would save lots of money. Pitch and putt courses should not exist. Another savings. Agree with your excellent comments.

[Sunrise Beach]

The removal of the trees was what I felt was a lousy excuse. Most great golf courses have beautiful trees throughout. I urge any management who might read this thread to reconsider that aspect. We know the grass will not be lush in those areas but at least we aren’t playing in a desert devoid of trees and a bit of shade.

[MX rider]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

How many people here, have ever hired a Consultant and expected to the Consultant to publicly disagree with the official position?

There was no way the consultant was going to say: "You guys are a doing a crappy job of maintaining your golf courses and you all should be fired". Without saying it in words, I think the District has already conceded they haven't done a great job of maintaining the courses and have found themselves behind the curve.

I think we're going to see an entirely new attitude towards maintaining the Executive Courses, over the next year or two. It takes time to stop the current momentum and revamp the process. We are dealing with government and change comes slowly.

As for the report, my opinion is ...

"Trees" are the bane of golf courses. Roots and canopies do more to prevent grass from growing, than El Nino ever thought of.

If you don't properly maintain your greens, your organic layer increases every year and eventually you choke off the grass ... it just won't grow. I have never seen a green in TV get a deep core aeration. It may happen, but I've never seen it. #1 problem with greens.

There's too much traffic on the golf courses. Shocking news.

The "Landscapers" aren't held accountable. More shocking news.

We need a long-term plan, with identifiable goals and performance standards. Yep

We need to convert to newer strains of Bermuda. Already in progress.

We need to review our contracts and improve them. Even Mitch admitted that, at a PWAC meeting.

Traqmatz is a pretty cool product, but at $4/sq. ft., it's fairly costly.

It became abundantly clear that the District got the message, when they came up with the El Nino story and then brought in the USGA. We can all complain that it's too little too late, but at this point, things can only improve.

Now I'm about to put on my Flak Jacket.

In my opinion, we cannot sustain the Executive Golf courses, unless they are operated 100%, "Cart Path Only". You can not like it. You can disagree with it. You can say it's unfair. It's a fact. If you want reasonable conditions year round, get rid of the carts.

The truth is, if you can't walk the few steps it requires to play an Executive Course, without driving on the fairway, you really need to choose another sport. Your days as a golfer are behind you. I understand the MickyLee Pitch & Putt has plenty of Tee Times available.

If I were TV King for a Day, I'd pick out 5-10 Executive Golf courses and make them completely "walking only".

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

I agree with you on this. Very well said

[MPhoto]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

How many people here, have ever hired a Consultant and expected to the Consultant to publicly disagree with the official position?

There was no way the consultant was going to say: "You guys are a doing a crappy job of maintaining your golf courses and you all should be fired". Without saying it in words, I think the District has already conceded they haven't done a great job of maintaining the courses and have found themselves behind the curve.

I think we're going to see an entirely new attitude towards maintaining the Executive Courses, over the next year or two. It takes time to stop the current momentum and revamp the process. We are dealing with government and change comes slowly.

As for the report, my opinion is ...

"Trees" are the bane of golf courses. Roots and canopies do more to prevent grass from growing, than El Nino ever thought of.

If you don't properly maintain your greens, your organic layer increases every year and eventually you choke off the grass ... it just won't grow. I have never seen a green in TV get a deep core aeration. It may happen, but I've never seen it. #1 problem with greens.

There's too much traffic on the golf courses. Shocking news.

The "Landscapers" aren't held accountable. More shocking news.

We need a long-term plan, with identifiable goals and performance standards. Yep

We need to convert to newer strains of Bermuda. Already in progress.

We need to review our contracts and improve them. Even Mitch admitted that, at a PWAC meeting.

Traqmatz is a pretty cool product, but at $4/sq. ft., it's fairly costly.

It became abundantly clear that the District got the message, when they came up with the El Nino story and then brought in the USGA. We can all complain that it's too little too late, but at this point, things can only improve.

Now I'm about to put on my Flak Jacket.

In my opinion, we cannot sustain the Executive Golf courses, unless they are operated 100%, "Cart Path Only". You can not like it. You can disagree with it. You can say it's unfair. It's a fact. If you want reasonable conditions year round, get rid of the carts.

The truth is, if you can't walk the few steps it requires to play an Executive Course, without driving on the fairway, you really need to choose another sport. Your days as a golfer are behind you. I understand the MickyLee Pitch & Putt has plenty of Tee Times available.

If I were TV King for a Day, I'd pick out 5-10 Executive Golf courses and make them completely "walking only".

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Totally agree!

[Boffin]

Originally Posted by The Gazette

A report released this week from the United States Golf Association links El Niño, tree coverage limiting sunlight and aging infrastructure as some factors contributing to worsening golf course conditions in The Villages. The visit from Chris Neff, a consulting agronomist with USGA, comes amid a string of executive golf course closures due to renovation

More...

A consultant is someone who borrows your watch to tell you the time.

[Joe Mack]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

Now I'm about to put on my Flak Jacket.

The truth is, if you can't walk the few steps it requires to play an Executive Course, without driving on the fairway, you really need to choose another sport. Your days as a golfer are behind you. I understand the MickyLee Pitch & Putt has plenty of Tee Times available.

Flak jacket well deserved for that snarky comment in a senior community. BTW, the pitch and putts require a lot of walking. Perhaps the villages should rebrand itself as a senior community, as long as you're not "to" senior.

[kkingston57]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

How many people here, have ever hired a Consultant and expected to the Consultant to publicly disagree with the official position?

There was no way the consultant was going to say: "You guys are a doing a crappy job of maintaining your golf courses and you all should be fired". Without saying it in words, I think the District has already conceded they haven't done a great job of maintaining the courses and have found themselves behind the curve.

I think we're going to see an entirely new attitude towards maintaining the Executive Courses, over the next year or two. It takes time to stop the current momentum and revamp the process. We are dealing with government and change comes slowly.

As for the report, my opinion is ...

"Trees" are the bane of golf courses. Roots and canopies do more to prevent grass from growing, than El Nino ever thought of.

If you don't properly maintain your greens, your organic layer increases every year and eventually you choke off the grass ... it just won't grow. I have never seen a green in TV get a deep core aeration. It may happen, but I've never seen it. #1 problem with greens.

There's too much traffic on the golf courses. Shocking news.

The "Landscapers" aren't held accountable. More shocking news.

We need a long-term plan, with identifiable goals and performance standards. Yep

We need to convert to newer strains of Bermuda. Already in progress.

We need to review our contracts and improve them. Even Mitch admitted that, at a PWAC meeting.

Traqmatz is a pretty cool product, but at $4/sq. ft., it's fairly costly.

It became abundantly clear that the District got the message, when they came up with the El Nino story and then brought in the USGA. We can all complain that it's too little too late, but at this point, things can only improve.

Now I'm about to put on my Flak Jacket.

In my opinion, we cannot sustain the Executive Golf courses, unless they are operated 100%, "Cart Path Only". You can not like it. You can disagree with it. You can say it's unfair. It's a fact. If you want reasonable conditions year round, get rid of the carts.

The truth is, if you can't walk the few steps it requires to play an Executive Course, without driving on the fairway, you really need to choose another sport. Your days as a golfer are behind you. I understand the MickyLee Pitch & Putt has plenty of Tee Times available.

If I were TV King for a Day, I'd pick out 5-10 Executive Golf courses and make them completely "walking only".



Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Some good points but you still need a flack jacket. Most of the complaints/problems are on the greens. NO carts allowed on the greens. Have not done a survey but bet that 90% of the golf carts stay on the asphalt and/or concrete cart paths.

Though you might have suggested that the courses should not allow riding mowers on the greens. That will work but will cause a huge ruckus when labor costs sky rocket

[ThirdOfFive]

Funny thing about el Nino. It seems to be pretty selective, ravaging some courses while leaving other courses, often only a mile or so away, in excellent condition.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by Sunrise Beach

The removal of the trees was what I felt was a lousy excuse. Most great golf courses have beautiful trees throughout. I urge any management who might read this thread to reconsider that aspect. We know the grass will not be lush in those areas but at least we aren’t playing in a desert devoid of trees and a bit of shade.

Every quality golf course in the world, has a "tree removal/trimming plan" in place. Trees are removed, canopies are managed.

Other than "specimen trees" (such as on the 9th hole of Talley Ho or the famous "Hinkle Tree at Inverness, during the '79 US Open), trees generally have no place within the playing area and many cases, "cart paths" can't be tree-lined, because root growth undermines the cart paths (this is a different in some areas, depending on whether the tree root growth is vertical or horizontal).

Most every Donald Ross course in the USA, has had major "tree removal" initiatives, over the last 25 or so years. The courses don't play the same as they did when Ross designed them.

I'm reminded of the old Sam Snead story, when he played with a young pro.

Sam said, "whey I was younger, I used to drive the ball right over that big ol' Oak tree and cut the dogleg". When the young pro tried it, he made a double bogey. Sam laughed and said, "of course, when I was younger, that tree was a lot shorter".

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by Joe Mack

Flak jacket well deserved for that snarky comment in a senior community. BTW, the pitch and putts require a lot of walking. Perhaps the villages should rebrand itself as a senior community, as long as you're not "to" senior.

No, it's not "snarky", it's common sense.

Do we allow Softball players to use scooters, when they're too old to run the bases?

Do we allow Pickleball players to use powered rackets?

Do we lower the Basketball rims to 6', 'cause old folks can't jump?

At some point, age catches up with everyone and we physically can't do what we'd like to do.

It's inevitable and the price we pay, to remain on the right side of the grass (no pun intended).

& The Villages is doing just fine. There are plenty of options nearby, when you're "too" senior and need assistance.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by The Gazette

A report released this week from the United States Golf Association links El Niño, tree coverage limiting sunlight and aging infrastructure as some factors contributing to worsening golf course conditions in The Villages. The visit from Chris Neff, a consulting agronomist with USGA, comes amid a string of executive golf course closures due to renovation

More...

Not that familiar with Bonita Pass and Redfish Run, but show me a tree on Pelican or Bacall that would cause a problem like those stated in the report. Pelican MAYBE on holes 7 & 8, but does Bacall even have a tree on it? I think the POA Bulletin made a good point about The Villages now building homes first and Golf Courses, Rec Centers, etc. AFTER homes are inhabited as opposed to when the amenities were built first THEN the houses were built. All those golfers South of 44 have to come up North to play golf and that puts higher than normal traffic on the courses between 44 and 466.

[coleprice]

Follow the Money!!! Chris Neff's consulting fees were paid by The Villages.

Executive Leadership employed by The Villages who are responsible for Golf Course Management are Replaced! Mitch Leininger, who is The Villages executive responsible for Golf Course Maintenance should be FIRED for the failure of his organization to maintain golf courses. His failure is costing Village residents many millions of dollars, so his replacement(s) must (1) Make necessary Organizational Changes, (2) Establish Priorities and (3) Direct & Empower those responsible for maintaining Golf Courses in good, playable condition. Some Executive Golf Courses are in great shape, which demonstrates that with the right leadership, golf course conditions can be properly maintained within the current budget. Also, it's nice to see that nobody is buying the lies about the weather causing golf course deterioration.

[coleprice]

Follow the Money!!! Consulting fees were paid by The Villages. Many courses are in good condition, which means that courses in poor condition suffered from mismanagement and neglect . . . Executive Leadership employed by The Villages who are responsible for Golf Course Management are Replaced! Mitch Leininger, who is The Villages executive responsible for Golf Course Maintenance should be FIRED for the failure of his organization to maintain golf courses. His failure is costing Village residents many millions of dollars, so his replacement(s) must (1) Make necessary Organizational Changes, (2) Establish Priorities and (3) Direct & Empower those responsible for maintaining Golf Courses in good, playable condition. Some Executive Golf Courses are in great shape, which demonstrates that with the right leadership, golf course conditions can be properly maintained within the current budget. Also, it's nice to see that nobody is buying the lies about the weather causing golf course deterioration.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by kkingston57

Some good points but you still need a flack jacket. Most of the complaints/problems are on the greens. NO carts allowed on the greens. Have not done a survey but bet that 90% of the golf carts stay on the asphalt and/or concrete cart paths.

Though you might have suggested that the courses should not allow riding mowers on the greens. That will work but will cause a huge ruckus when labor costs sky rocket

I understand that the greens are a huge problem. I've always been reliably informed, that many of the Executive Courses don't have USGA Spec greens, but are old fashioned, "push up" greens. Push up greens can work well for 50 years under some conditions, but not so much in the Executive golf environment of The Villages (it's tough enough to maintain USGA greens, here). When the courses with "push up" greens are renovated, I suspect most will get USGA type greens, which will work much better.

As for "riding mowers" on the greens ...

Hand mowing is obviously labor/cost intensive. That said, modern green mowers have a smaller impact on greens, than walking. Off the top of my head, I don't know the psi, but they're very light on their feet.

[mntlblok]

Originally Posted by Shipping up to Boston

These are the bullets from the USGA 2016 El Niño report. Not passing judgment....just asking the active TV golfers if you believe any of the below was followed this past winter?

2016

How can you protect your golf course?

Ultimately, we need drier weather and more sunlight. A few tips to consider for improving turf health and playability at your facility include:

1. Monitor soil moisture and reduce overhead irrigation – Many facilities have not applied irrigation since before Christmas 2015, yet root zones remain saturated due to the increased rainfall. Keep track of your soil moisture and reduce irrigation as much as possible at this time. Spend the extra money and purchase a dependable soil moisture meter that measures volumetric water content.

2. Increase mowing heights on greens – Do not stress your greens by mowing low. Sacrifice a little bit of playability for turf health and be more tolerant of slightly slower conditions. Turfgrass leaves are like miniature solar panels. Therefore, providing greater leaf area by increasing mowing heights will allow turf to create more energy through photosynthesis, promoting turf health and deeper roots.

3. Vent greens regularly with solid-tine aeration – Venting with small, “pencil” tines – e.g., 0.25-inch diameter solid tines – is recommended on a monthly basis during normal winter months. Some facilities are venting greens as frequently as every two weeks. Venting improves rooting by relieving soil compaction and increasing soil oxygen.

4. Use plant protectants – Fungicides are being applied at many facilities to reduce disease and improve turf growth. Leaf spot and Pythium diseases have been among the most common pathogens on golf courses over the past few weeks.

5. Manage golfer traffic – Ropes and stakes often are used to reduce cart traffic stress and are particularly helpful during the winter. Also, more courses than normal have adopted “cart path only” policies during the past month because of saturated soil conditions.

6. Implement a fairway topdressing program – “Mud balls” are a common problem when fairway soils remain saturated and are caused, in part, by an undiluted surface layer of organic matter. This thick, spongy layer causes more plugged lies and increases the occurrence of mud – i.e., organic matter – on balls. While fairway topdressing is costly, it certainly improves playability – especially surface firmness – and helps reduce the occurrence of “mud balls” in fairways with excessive organic matter.

Source: Todd Lowe (tlowe@usga.org) and Steve Kammerer (skammerer@usga.org)

Most excellent info. Thanks for sharing.