[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

No, it's not "snarky", it's common sense.

Do we allow Softball players to use scooters, when they're too old to run the bases?

Do we allow Pickleball players to use powered rackets?

Do we lower the Basketball rims to 6', 'cause old folks can't jump?

At some point, age catches up with everyone and we physically can't do what we'd like to do.

It's inevitable and the price we pay, to remain on the right side of the grass (no pun intended).

& The Villages is doing just fine. There are plenty of options nearby, when you're "too" senior and need assistance.

It scarcely needs to be pointed out that those supposedly incapable folks playing golf pay the same amenity fees as everyone else.

I would add also that golf is unique in that it can be played by folks with disabilities at all stages of life, including those related to aging. Adaptive golfers dot org. states the following:

"Adaptive Golfers empowers individuals with cognitive, physical, sensory, health and age-related challenges, to use the game of golf as a tool to improve the quality of their lives, mind, body and soul.

We provide pathways to Adaptive Therapy - Leisure Game - Adaptive Sports, even a World Ranking for Golfers with disabilities. Golf is for all DIFFERENT (not dis) ABILITIES. Come on let’s #MakeGOLFyourthing. "

I have seen groups of blind golfers out on the execs, as well as paraplegics, and various other folks with various disabilities. To see them enjoying the game is an uplifting experience. I would encourage those interested in finding out more, to Google "adaptive aids for golfers". the aids and assistive devices out there for golfers is nothing short of overwhelming.

There are always exceptions, but for myself the overall attitude of inclusiveness that overwhelmingly seems to be the mindset of Villagers is one of the primary things that attracted me to TV in the first place. "There, but for the grace of God, go I" and all that. I hope I never reach the point in my life where I see those folks more heavily impacted by advancing age than I am, as impediments.

[tophcfa]

Originally Posted by Shipping up to Boston

These are the bullets from the USGA 2016 El Niño report. Not passing judgment....just asking the active TV golfers if you believe any of the below was followed this past winter?

2016

How can you protect your golf course?

Ultimately, we need drier weather and more sunlight. A few tips to consider for improving turf health and playability at your facility include:

1. Monitor soil moisture and reduce overhead irrigation – Many facilities have not applied irrigation since before Christmas 2015, yet root zones remain saturated due to the increased rainfall. Keep track of your soil moisture and reduce irrigation as much as possible at this time. Spend the extra money and purchase a dependable soil moisture meter that measures volumetric water content.

2. Increase mowing heights on greens – Do not stress your greens by mowing low. Sacrifice a little bit of playability for turf health and be more tolerant of slightly slower conditions. Turfgrass leaves are like miniature solar panels. Therefore, providing greater leaf area by increasing mowing heights will allow turf to create more energy through photosynthesis, promoting turf health and deeper roots.

3. Vent greens regularly with solid-tine aeration – Venting with small, “pencil” tines – e.g., 0.25-inch diameter solid tines – is recommended on a monthly basis during normal winter months. Some facilities are venting greens as frequently as every two weeks. Venting improves rooting by relieving soil compaction and increasing soil oxygen.

4. Use plant protectants – Fungicides are being applied at many facilities to reduce disease and improve turf growth. Leaf spot and Pythium diseases have been among the most common pathogens on golf courses over the past few weeks.

5. Manage golfer traffic – Ropes and stakes often are used to reduce cart traffic stress and are particularly helpful during the winter. Also, more courses than normal have adopted “cart path only” policies during the past month because of saturated soil conditions.

6. Implement a fairway topdressing program – “Mud balls” are a common problem when fairway soils remain saturated and are caused, in part, by an undiluted surface layer of organic matter. This thick, spongy layer causes more plugged lies and increases the occurrence of mud – i.e., organic matter – on balls. While fairway topdressing is costly, it certainly improves playability – especially surface firmness – and helps reduce the occurrence of “mud balls” in fairways with excessive organic matter.

Source: Todd Lowe (tlowe@usga.org) and Steve Kammerer (skammerer@usga.org)

Interesting. Just an observation and question regarding item 6. Last winter I played lots of golf and don’t remember getting many mud balls? It seemed like the fairways were so bone dry that a low draw off the T would run another 75 yards after hitting the fairway. If moisture below the surface is indeed an issue, wouldn’t it make sense to return to over seeding the turf like they used to? That way there will be grass growing during the winter months, rather than being dormant, and the roots will absorb the excess moisture. I’m no expert, but that seems to make sense?

[mntlblok]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

I understand that the greens are a huge problem. I've always been reliably informed, that many of the Executive Courses don't have USGA Spec greens, but are old fashioned, "push up" greens. Push up greens can work well for 50 years under some conditions, but not so much in the Executive golf environment of The Villages (it's tough enough to maintain USGA greens, here). When the courses with "push up" greens are renovated, I suspect most will get USGA type greens, which will work much better.

As for "riding mowers" on the greens ...

Hand mowing is obviously labor/cost intensive. That said, modern green mowers have a smaller impact on greens, than walking. Off the top of my head, I don't know the psi, but they're very light on their feet.

Had never heard of there being two types of greens. Understanding Your Course’s Greens | by CDGA | Medium

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

It scarcely needs to be pointed out that those supposedly incapable folks playing golf pay the same amenity fees as everyone else.

I would add also that golf is unique in that it can be played by folks with disabilities at all stages of life, including those related to aging. Adaptive golfers dot org. states the following:

"Adaptive Golfers empowers individuals with cognitive, physical, sensory, health and age-related challenges, to use the game of golf as a tool to improve the quality of their lives, mind, body and soul.

We provide pathways to Adaptive Therapy - Leisure Game - Adaptive Sports, even a World Ranking for Golfers with disabilities. Golf is for all DIFFERENT (not dis) ABILITIES. Come on let’s #MakeGOLFyourthing. "

I have seen groups of blind golfers out on the execs, as well as paraplegics, and various other folks with various disabilities. To see them enjoying the game is an uplifting experience. I would encourage those interested in finding out more, to Google "adaptive aids for golfers". the aids and assistive devices out there for golfers is nothing short of overwhelming.

There are always exceptions, but for myself the overall attitude of inclusiveness that overwhelmingly seems to be the mindset of Villagers is one of the primary things that attracted me to TV in the first place. "There, but for the grace of God, go I" and all that. I hope I never reach the point in my life where I see those folks more heavily impacted by advancing age than I am, as impediments.

I agree, to an extent.

That said, not every sport nor sport venue, is appropriate for adaptation to everyone's needs. The theory of "inclusiveness" is fine, until it's carried to the extremes.

Wheelchair racers shouldn't be racing in marathons, along side the folks who are actually "running".

Golfers who are riding all over a small, confined golf course in vehicles, should perhaps be playing on a "field" (course), built to accommodate such use, not one built for folks who are more mobile.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

[Rich42]

I will leave the specifics of our problems to the experts, and I have no reason to disbelieve what they are currently saying. However, I will say again (already stated in previous threads) that the biggest problem on the Villages golf courses both championship and exec’ is the high level of play. Before moving to the villages, I retired to the Myrtle Beach area for 16 years at the time when they had over 100 golf courses. It was a hard and fast rule that no golf course allowed over 45,000 rounds in any given year to be played on it . Golf courses need time to recover. They cannot be played 365 days a year from morning till night and expect to be in good shape. It is just not possible. And unfortunately, the fact that the Villages continues to grow while reducing the rate at which new golf courses are built, our problems will only be exacerbated rather than improved in the future.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

I understand that the greens are a huge problem. I've always been reliably informed, that many of the Executive Courses don't have USGA Spec greens, but are old fashioned, "push up" greens. Push up greens can work well for 50 years under some conditions, but not so much in the Executive golf environment of The Villages (it's tough enough to maintain USGA greens, here). When the courses with "push up" greens are renovated, I suspect most will get USGA type greens, which will work much better.

....

Originally Posted by mntlblok

Had never heard of there being two types of greens. Understanding Your Course’s Greens | by CDGA | Medium

"Push Up Greens" were the order of the day, until the USGA Greens Section came up with their new design, I believe in the late 60's.

They are still used today, in modern golf course construction. One the most exclusive and expensive country clubs in the USA, is The Boston Club, outside of Boston. If I'm not mistaken Gil Hanse (one of the best golf course architects around) used Push Up Greens there, when he built it about 10-12 years ago. (Interesting aside to that, the founder and owner of the course was killed, when he was "helping" build the course and a compactor/roller he was operating, flipped.)

As I understand them, Push Up Greens work best in extremely sandy soils (like certain parts of Florida).

The Pines course at The International in Bolton, MA sits on over 75'-100' of sand in most places. That course had old-fashioned Push Up Greens and were some of the best greens in the USA (including the largest green in the US, at about 25,000 sq. ft on Hole #5). The greens were sensational. They have another course built in the 90's by Fazio. The soils there are different and USGA Greens were used.

The Pines course is currently under-going a complete redesign at the hands of Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw. It will likely make GD's Top 100, after a few years of growing in.

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by Rich42

I will leave the specifics of our problems to the experts, and I have no reason to disbelieve what they are currently saying. However, I will say again (already stated in previous threads) that the biggest problem on the Villages golf courses both championship and exec’ is the high level of play. Before moving to the villages, I retired to the Myrtle Beach area for 16 years at the time when they had over 100 golf courses. It was a hard and fast rule that no golf course allowed over 45,000 rounds in any given year to be played on it . Golf courses need time to recover. They cannot be played 365 days a year from morning till night and expect to be in good shape. It is just not possible. And unfortunately, the fact that the Villages continues to grow while reducing the rate at which new golf courses are built, our problems will only be exacerbated rather than improved in the future.

Good points.

One thing that could be done, but as far as I know isn't, is to limit the number of rounds per player to one per day, and add maybe two minutes to the length of time between tee times. I know of people (snowbirds as well as year-round people) who think nothing of playing two or even three rounds per day, and especially during the winter months that is not only adding to heavier traffic but also limits tee times.

[Shipping up to Boston]

Originally Posted by Rich42

I will leave the specifics of our problems to the experts, and I have no reason to disbelieve what they are currently saying. However, I will say again (already stated in previous threads) that the biggest problem on the Villages golf courses both championship and exec’ is the high level of play. Before moving to the villages, I retired to the Myrtle Beach area for 16 years at the time when they had over 100 golf courses. It was a hard and fast rule that no golf course allowed over 45,000 rounds in any given year to be played on it . Golf courses need time to recover. They cannot be played 365 days a year from morning till night and expect to be in good shape. It is just not possible. And unfortunately, the fact that the Villages continues to grow while reducing the rate at which new golf courses are built, our problems will only be exacerbated rather than improved in the future.

I also lived in MB for a bit....back when there were over 125 courses on the Grand Strand. People in TV love to say how immune they are to natural disasters (ie; hurricanes etc). SC and Myrtle Beach have historically always been in the path of many. The difference, those courses have been maintained and sustained each and every blow. It’s like playing on carpet there. I’ve brought up the MB comparison before on previous threads on this topic. Interesting their courses also share the El Niño weather patterns. Go figure!

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by Shipping up to Boston

I also lived in MB for a bit....back when there were over 125 courses on the Grand Strand. People in TV love to say how immune they are to natural disasters (ie; hurricanes etc). SC and Myrtle Beach have historically always been in the path of many. The difference, those courses have been maintained and sustained each and every blow. It’s like playing on carpet there. I’ve brought up the MB comparison before on previous threads on this topic. Interesting their courses also share the El Niño weather patterns. Go figure!

Here's what people don't get.

If you want to move your greens from 9 on the Stimpmeter to 10 on the Stimpmeter, it's easy ... figure about another $5000-$10,000 per green in maintenance cost.

If you want your TV Course to look like The Dunes in Myrtle Beach, add $450,000 - $500,000 in maintenance cost ... maybe more.

Want TV courses to be as well conditioned as Augusta National? No problem. Add $3,000,000 per course to the budget.

The same things are true, as it relates to the number of rounds played. You can maintain a course for $30/round or you can maintain one for $100/round. Whichever # you choose, is then driven by the number of rounds played.

Maintenance costs are directly attributable to the number of rounds played (not that there aren't other factors, but all things being equal, the # of rounds drives maintenance costs).

[Shipping up to Boston]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

Here's what people don't get.

If you want to move your greens from 9 on the Stimpmeter to 10 on the Stimpmeter, it's easy ... figure about another $5000-$10,000 per green in maintenance cost.

If you want your TV Course to look like The Dunes in Myrtle Beach, add $450,000 - $500,000 in maintenance cost ... maybe more.

Want TV courses to be as well conditioned as Augusta National? No problem. Add $3,000,000 per course to the budget.

The same things are true, as it relates to the number of rounds played. You can maintain a course for $30/round or you can maintain one for $100/round. Whichever # you choose, is then driven by the number of rounds played.

Maintenance costs are directly attributable to the number of rounds played (not that there aren't other factors, but all things being equal, the # of rounds drives maintenance costs).

Maybe they should just admit that this is as good as it gets.....then all the comparisons/complaints will end. You know how well bond and fee talk goes on this forum. I think for the most part these are nice, serviceable tracks in TV. Under your premise and price point, rounds played etc, they should be able to stay that way consistently.....without capital expenditure type upgrades.

[TomSpasm]

I noticed the Traqmatz leading onto t-boxes when I played El Campeon at Mission Inn last week. Sounds like an expensive option not really suitable for $4 golf.

The lack of detail in the report was annoying. There was reference to TifDwarf greens having more problems than others, but it wasn't noted which courses have that and which don't. And trees? Heron has some trees, but several others that went bad don't have trees that shade any greens. And the main picture they showed of trees was on the right side of the fairway at Silver Lake #2.

And I couldn't help but think of Mike Pence when the author, referring to Mitch Leininger, said "His pivotal role in keeping management companies focused, managing member expectations, and preparing for future renovations and projects is crucial to maintaining these golf courses. His efforts should be recognized as monumental in accomplishing these tasks."

[Rich Iwaszko]

Lotta chatter......thoughts... in no particular order

All executive courses must have golf car paths around the whole course to minimize compaction. Handicap cars okay. Fairways on exec courses are like teats on a bull, look nice
but non functional.

Obviously the executive course greens were not built to USGA specs. They lack proper drainage and possibly not enough loam used.

Fairways on championship courses will always be preferred lie areas........no big deal.......
they are fine as stand

It's all about the greens. A true greenskeeper knows every golf course and every green acts differently from a growth and need perspective. If you treat them all the same you are asking for problems at some point. And those problems don't happen overnight, so who is watching. Pro's are not greenskeepers, turf managers are. Again, a green doesn't get crusty overnight.

Regardless of El Niño or El bozo, the greenskeeper adjusts cultural practices accordingly. Regardless of El Niño or El blamo, the greenskeeper understands if theirs no air flow or sunlight issues and adjust accordingly. What we have here is cookie cutter maintenance. Similar to the maintenance on your lawn. And thats why problems will always arise.

Solutions, redo greens to usga specs..........get more boots on the ground, qualified greenskeeper with less courses to monitor and to watch and analyzing conditions daily. It may cost more, BUT,
you won't have to redo courses every so many years.

My biggest fear is that USGA Specs were not used when the greens were built. Time to make up for that. And adjust cultural practices for each course as determined by its peccadillo's. No more cookie cutter maintenance practices.

Originally Posted by The Gazette

A report released this week from the United States Golf Association links El Niño, tree coverage limiting sunlight and aging infrastructure as some factors contributing to worsening golf course conditions in The Villages. The visit from Chris Neff, a consulting agronomist with USGA, comes amid a string of executive golf course closures due to renovation

More...

[jnsbill]

90% plus are Par 3's - you are supposed to hit the green if not you are penalized so leave the "fairways" alone waste of money put it elsewhere
Tee Boxes again 90% plus of the golfers use a tee so do we care if they are PGA quality?
save some more money
The Greens this where the $$$ should be spent - weeds - bare spots - etc
How many courses are currently closed? 8-9-10? The real question is how many should be closed because the greens are deplorable?
The Report Card is a JOKE
And when a course is "rebuilt" we throw out some new plants and some of those cute white boulders - Waste Of Money
And the New Sand - its very pretty but nobody plays out of the sand - more wasted money!
Speaking of "rebuilt" courses Chula Vista is closed for rebuilding wasnt it rebuilt 2-3 years ago???
Mitch you should be ashamed of yourself
Rant Over

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by Rich Iwaszko

Lotta chatter......thoughts... in no particular order

....

Obviously the executive course greens were not built to USGA specs. They lack proper drainage and possibly not enough loam used.

...

Pro's are not greenskeepers, turf managers are. Again, a green doesn't get crusty overnight.


Solutions, redo greens to usga specs..........get more boots on the ground, qualified greenskeeper with less courses to monitor and to watch and analyzing conditions daily. It may cost more, BUT, you won't have to redo courses every so many years.

My biggest fear is that USGA Specs were not used when the greens were built. Time to make up for that. And adjust cultural practices for each course as determined by its peccadillo's. No more cookie cutter maintenance practices.

At the PWAC meeting a couple of weeks ago, Mitch Leininger said he thought the Executive Course greens were built to USGA specs. Upon further review, it seems that some are and some aren't. Some are straight "push up" greens.

According to the District, the "renovation" contracts all specify USGA Greens. I've seen the standards and I'm not convinced we're getting what we're paying for. I have spoken to the District and they've gone out of their way to listen, comment and perhaps consider tightening up their specs in the future.

As you know, you can build greens to Augusta National specs, and if you don't take care of them, they're not going to last. Rebuilding golf courses every 10-12 years (which is now the official cycle per the District), is the craziest thing I've ever heard. How many times did you guys "rebuild" Pocasset? Course maintenance in a place like TV is a 365 day a year challenge for professionals. The mow/fertilize/rebuild process is flawed.

Regarding your comment about PGA Professionals:

Apparently, the Golf Professionals in TV are also tasked as "Executive Golf course renovation design consultants and construction managers". I wrote a letter to the District last week and made the claim that "PGA Professionals manage golf, not construction and/or design". While most PGA Professionals are knowledgable, they're not agronomists, designers or construction managers.

[Scbang]

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

Funny thing about el Nino. It seems to be pretty selective, ravaging some courses while leaving other courses, often only a mile or so away, in excellent condition.

1000% agreed. No study needed. No excuses warranted. Just copy what you do for Amberwood then we'll all be so happy!

Cheers!