[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

the face remains open.....
However, that explains the What(out to in) it does not explain the HOW TO!
therein lies the rub .... its the how to that defines your movement.

First off a draw requires a slightly closed face at address, a fade slightly open at address.

That is absolutely, unequivocally wrong.

Face angle has little to do with whether a golf ball fades or draws. PATH determines spin axis. Face angle at setup, has ZERO to do with hitting a fade or draw..

I've got $10,000 that says I can hit 10 "draws" in a row, with a club face that's open at address.

I'll be back in Florida in October, let me know what day works for you. Bring your money, please.

In the meantime, listen to Tiger Woods (he's a fairly decent golfer) explain ... CLOSE the face to hit a cut ... OPEN the face to hit a draw. Of course, Tiger probably doesn't know what he's talking about either, right?

(At the 34 second spot).

https://www.reddit.com/r/golf/commen...ives_a_expert/

[SHIBUMI]

ball contact is one feel and swing motion is another feel. It is imperative to have both.

So, I will let you in on golfs big swing secret. Just don't pass it around. And go out and try it and see if you can get more swing feel. Try a range first. A little background.

Nicklaus says - I have a left sided swing. The control of his swing motion is his left side, arm, hip, etc. Homer Kelly, in the golfing machine says, there are 2 types of swings, Hitters or right siders and swingers who are left sided. One side leads and the other side follows. Never mix the two. You don't take it back with your left and hit with your right. They will fight each other. Over the top etc etc in errors. As your body will too. There in lies the bane of inconsistency. Your motion is fighting itself.

It's easier to get swing feel having one side lead and the other side follow. Fowler and Rahm are right siders. Their right side is leading and left following.

When you let one side take over you gain swing feel and position awareness and consistency. Both lead sides work, knowing the feel I can do both, but, the one you choose is determined by letting the ball flight tell you. Don't need video cause you have better feel of where the club and your motion is at.

I prefer the left side, the ball told me that. You have to find your best lead feel.

Maybe in the brain, you can only control one side at a time with 3 seconds of the golf swing. Your knowledge of the golf swing is a good head start to achieve this and find your lead side. My experience is that Improvement is quick.

And once you find your side, the good news is that you use that lead side for ALL shots. How simple can that be. I believe it includes putting as well. Why go down the fairway using one lead side and then go on the green and use a different one.
No feel may result.

Well, if you are adventurous, give it a try. You won't get worse and you will start the road of swing feel. Very Very Sweet...........

PS...some physics...left side lead is powered by centrifugal force that is why it looks smooth.... right side lead is powered by thrust, it looks shorter and more forceful....like I said, both work and one is not longer than another.

Have fun with it and more consistency and swing feel...........

Who was that masked man!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by jimhoward

That is one kind of feel....flush contact with the ball. You know of course right away from the feedback of the club if you are fat or thin, open or closed, toe or heel. But there are other kinds of feel, like how far you take the club back, or how much you are turning, or swaying. And feel on those can be very deceiving.

[SHIBUMI]

The encyclopedia briantica, a fight for truth and justice.

What we have here is a standoff between Nicklaus and Woods.

You control the ball flight with your hands or with your swing. The right answer is you can do both. You obviously do it with your hands.
A rare skill by the way. Congratulations.

Hands can control it with any type of club face. Swing requires only path and face angle to get it done. A less inconsistent option, unless you have tournament winning hand feel. Woods was a hand feel hitter and Nicklaus was body feel swinger.

Like I said they both work. No wrong answer here just prefer Nicklaus methodology. There are many ways to skin a cat or move the golf ball. There is not only one.

They have chosen to do it their way. No wrong answer.

Hopefully that 5 handicap in the Villages isn't a ten in New England. Stay warm...

Originally Posted by BrianL99

That is absolutely, unequivocally wrong.

Face angle has little to do with whether a golf ball fades or draws. PATH determines spin axis. Face angle at setup, has ZERO to do with hitting a fade or draw..

I've got $10,000 that says I can hit 10 "draws" in a row, with a club face that's open at address.

I'll be back in Florida in October, let me know what day works for you. Bring your money, please.

In the meantime, listen to Tiger Woods (he's a fairly decent golfer) explain ... CLOSE the face to hit a cut ... OPEN the face to hit a draw. Of course, Tiger probably doesn't know what he's talking about either, right?

(At the 34 second spot).

https://www.reddit.com/r/golf/commen...ives_a_expert/

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

What we have here is a standoff between Nicklaus and Woods.

Jack Nicklaus won his last PGA Tour event, 40 years ago. Playing a Persimmon Driver and wound, balata golf ball.

What we have is are divergent theories. One based on what someone *thinks* he feels or does with a golf club and the reality of how a golf club and ball move, proven by science.

You and everyone else, has to learn and understand the New Ball Flight Rules, to play decent golf.

Tour Draw

[jimhoward]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

ball contact is one feel and swing motion is another feel. It is imperative to have both.

So, I will let you in on golfs big swing secret. Just don't pass it around. And go out and try it and see if you can get more swing feel. Try a range first. A little background.

Nicklaus says - I have a left sided swing. The control of his swing motion is his left side, arm, hip, etc. Homer Kelly, in the golfing machine says, there are 2 types of swings, Hitters or right siders and swingers who are left sided. One side leads and the other side follows. Never mix the two. You don't take it back with your left and hit with your right. They will fight each other. Over the top etc etc in errors. As your body will too. There in lies the bane of inconsistency. Your motion is fighting itself.

It's easier to get swing feel having one side lead and the other side follow. Fowler and Rahm are right siders. Their right side is leading and left following.

When you let one side take over you gain swing feel and position awareness and consistency. Both lead sides work, knowing the feel I can do both, but, the one you choose is determined by letting the ball flight tell you. Don't need video cause you have better feel of where the club and your motion is at.

I prefer the left side, the ball told me that. You have to find your best lead feel.

Maybe in the brain, you can only control one side at a time with 3 seconds of the golf swing. Your knowledge of the golf swing is a good head start to achieve this and find your lead side. My experience is that Improvement is quick.

And once you find your side, the good news is that you use that lead side for ALL shots. How simple can that be. I believe it includes putting as well. Why go down the fairway using one lead side and then go on the green and use a different one.
No feel may result.

Well, if you are adventurous, give it a try. You won't get worse and you will start the road of swing feel. Very Very Sweet...........

PS...some physics...left side lead is powered by centrifugal force that is why it looks smooth.... right side lead is powered by thrust, it looks shorter and more forceful....like I said, both work and one is not longer than another.

Have fun with it and more consistency and swing feel...........

Who was that masked man!!!!!!!!!

Its not a secret. Jim Hardy and others have been teaching lead and trail dominant swings for decades, and the differences in body position and release and has characterized many professionals into the two camps.

[SHIBUMI]

for the Jim hardy reference I will check it out...

can I assume you have adopted one of the camps???? if not, try
you will gain consistency.......

can I assume with all this knowledge you are a single digit handicap?

Originally Posted by jimhoward

Its not a secret. Jim Hardy and others have been teaching lead and trail dominant swings for decades, and the differences in body position and release and has characterized many professionals into the two camps.

[SHIBUMI]

Sidespin is the spin that makes the golf ball curve left or right during its flight. It happens when the clubface is not pointing in the same direction as the swing path at impact. My old Ai.

There is no modern on ball flight laws............. a square club face at impact imparts little to no spin, Mo Norman is the only one, according to the President of Titleist,
versus all other pro's that had zero sidespin on his shots.

Common sense will tell you that, if you swing (path) flat the ball will draw
because a flatter swing returns the hands to the ball in a closed position.(club face) creating spin. And vice versa for a fade. The bigger problem is swing path disruption to do this.

Everyone has their own unique swing path either by design or by physical makeup.
That design will create a draw or fade most of the time depending on what it is.
And some occasional straight shots, almost, but look straight.

Their goal is to make that same swing all the time. They alter body and or face position to create control of ball movement. This is the easiest way to control ball flight without plane disruption.

The more you alter the plane or path of the club the more confused your swing feel gets. Do I pull it inside 40 degrees 38 degrees. 28 degrees ad infinitum.

This is where Man and Machine differ. Machine can be set wherever you like and returned without memory. Man cannot. Every time he deviates from his normal path the brain logs that and throws it back at him at a later time to create error.

Man needs to stay always with his signature path to be consistent. Machines can be programmed. Machines don't play golf, a Man does.

It takes 10,000 repetitions to create memory muscle(my term, muscles don't have memory, the mind does.) But it takes 30,000 repetitions to get rid of bad memory muscle. The best we can do is to keep repeating the same thing and not jump into the quagmire of many moves and have to deal with bad memory muscle corrections.

It's just simpler. Because it is for man. Easier to do and more predictable.
We are not machines. Their dynamics are different without legs and a brain.

Originally Posted by BrianL99

Jack Nicklaus won his last PGA Tour event, 40 years ago. Playing a Persimmon Driver and wound, balata golf ball.

What we have is are divergent theories. One based on what someone *thinks* he feels or does with a golf club and the reality of how a golf club and ball move, proven by science.

You and everyone else, has to learn and understand the New Ball Flight Rules, to play decent golf.

Tour Draw

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

Hopefully that 5 handicap in the Villages isn't a ten in New England. Stay warm...

No, I'm good.

[SHIBUMI]

If you get a chance revisit Quashnet Valley and see if you can break 80.

enjoy------ 6300 is northern white tees.......kick it up to 6,500 once warmed up....

Originally Posted by BrianL99

No, I'm good.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

There is no modern on ball flight laws............. a square club face at impact imparts little to no spin, Mo Norman is the only one, according to the President of Titleist,
versus all other pro's that had zero sidespin on his shots.

Mo Noman died in 2004. "Titleist" is a "brand" and did not have a "President" until 2018, when David Maher became President.

Facts matter.

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

Common sense will tell you that, if you swing (path) flat the ball will draw
because a flatter swing returns the hands to the ball in a closed position.(club face) creating spin. And vice versa for a fade. The bigger problem is swing path disruption to do this.

What you characterize as "common sense", defies physics and reality. It is untrue and proven to be untrue, every time Bryson DeChambeau plays golf.

[SHIBUMI]

my ai says thats what curves the ball.....I think it's aerodynamics and is reality.

what physics does it defy??????/

a hooking tennis ball does not hook until it slows down which happens after initial velocity (path) hits it straight

Originally Posted by BrianL99

Mo Noman died in 2004. "Titleist" is a "brand" and did not have a "President" until 2018, when David Maher became President.

Facts matter.



What you characterize as "common sense", defies physics and reality. It is untrue and proven to be untrue, every time Bryson DeChambeau plays golf.

[jimhoward]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

for the Jim hardy reference I will check it out...

can I assume you have adopted one of the camps???? if not, try
you will gain consistency.......

can I assume with all this knowledge you are a single digit handicap?

Yes, I have tried both. I play trail-side dominant.

All the knowledge in the world does not make up for lack of talent. So no, I am not single digit. In fact, I am one of the worst scoring members at my home club. There are many guys with bad swings that can beat me like a drum. But, not too many in the villages, home of bad golf and questionable or non-existent handicaps.

[SHIBUMI]

Your forcing me to buy his book..........to get his lingo down

however, you are far ahead of most folks as they have no clue to side dominance......

maybe your not doing it right?

Originally Posted by jimhoward

Yes, I have tried both. I play trail-side dominant.

All the knowledge in the world does not make up for lack of talent. So no, I am not single digit. In fact, I am one of the worst scoring members at my home club. There are many guys with bad swings that can beat me like a drum. But, not too many in the villages, home of bad golf and questionable or non-existent handicaps.

[jimhoward]

Originally Posted by SHIBUMI

Your forcing me to buy his book..........to get his lingo down

however, you are far ahead of most folks as they have no clue to side dominance......

maybe your not doing it right?

Definitely not forcing you to buy his books. He is a pretty famous guy, I figured you would already be familiar.

[SHIBUMI]

have bought book to see if he is right.........or at least professing the same methodology...........in the same or a different way....

Originally Posted by jimhoward

Definitely not forcing you to buy his books. He is a pretty famous guy, I figured you would already be familiar.