[jimbomaybe]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

My earlier point was that the money wasn’t spent, it was hoarded.

I’m good with who pays how much but if you want that to mean something you also need to tell me how much they made (income, not unrealized gains). If 65% of net income before taxes paid 75% of the taxes then great. If 50% of net income before taxes paid 65% of taxes then I have no complaint at all. But if 95% of net income before taxes paid 65% of taxes then quit the dang whining!

The statistics are based on facts but both the facts and the statistics are incomplete.

Then there are always the “three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.”

Unrealized gain is just that , until it is realized it is speculative . not hoarding,
I don't see how "I" am whining ?

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

My earlier point was that the money wasn’t spent, it was hoarded.

I’m good with who pays how much but if you want that to mean something you also need to tell me how much they made (income, not unrealized gains). If 65% of net income before taxes paid 75% of the taxes then great. If 50% of net income before taxes paid 65% of taxes then I have no complaint at all. But if 95% of net income before taxes paid 65% of taxes then quit the dang whining!

The statistics are based on facts but both the facts and the statistics are incomplete.

Then there are always the “three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.”

And my point is that profit is not "hoarded", it is re-invested in the ways I already posted.

And again, how much income they have is IRRELEVANT. What's relevant is how much does the government TAKE AWAY from what they earned to give away to those who didn't produce.

I can't be any more clear.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Pballer

The Big Beautiful Pile of Crap bill is just that, a pile of crap. The middle class will be paying thousands more in big beautiful tariffs and getting back a fraction of that from grandiose promises that sounded good at the time but have restrictive conditions that leave you feeling that you have been suckered. Take the no tax on overtime promise. It turns out that a maximum of only $12,500 in overtime will be exempt from tax. I guess that was somehow left out of the promise. I'm sure the billionaire class got most of what they wanted in this bill though.

"Only" $12,500 in overtime is exempt??? ONLY????? At $20/hr that's 625 hours/yr or 12.5 hours/week given 2 weeks vacation. How much overtime does one think the average worker accumulates? Yes, some will work more, but ON AVERAGE????? And $12,500 exempt is far better than the current ZERO. Amazing how some use trite rhetoric to try to turn a good thing into a bad thing. That's the true pile of crap.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

And my point is that profit is not "hoarded", it is re-invested in the ways I already posted.

And again, how much income they have is IRRELEVANT. What's relevant is how much does the government TAKE AWAY from what they earned to give away to those who didn't produce.

I can't be any more clear.

But you don’t know how much the govt. has taken away from what they have earned because you don’t know what they have earned. To you, this is IRRELEVANT while to me it is very RELEVANT. I can’t be any more clear.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by Pballer

The Big Beautiful Pile of Crap bill is just that, a pile of crap. The middle class will be paying thousands more in big beautiful tariffs and getting back a fraction of that from grandiose promises that sounded good at the time but have restrictive conditions that leave you feeling that you have been suckered. Take the no tax on overtime promise. It turns out that a maximum of only $12,500 in overtime will be exempt from tax. I guess that was somehow left out of the promise. I'm sure the billionaire class got most of what they wanted in this bill though.

Maybe some effort should be made by some to go after those who are sucking the system dry and not producing any effort toward their care and well being. We don't live in a communist society. We have always felt if we really want something, we'd better get to work and figure out how to accomplish that goal and not sit and wait for the government to take care of our needs.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

But you don’t know how much the govt. has taken away from what they have earned because you don’t know what they have earned. To you, this is IRRELEVANT while to me it is very RELEVANT. I can’t be any more clear.

And why does one think that's what's relevant???? I've never asked my neighbors what they earned or how much they have. Why would anyone be so nosy???? Clear????

Unless someone thinks that the top 5% paying 65% of all taxes is somehow unfair to those paying less (or zero), it's none of their business.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by jimbomaybe

Unrealized gain is just that , until it is realized it is speculative . not hoarding,
I don't see how "I" am whining ?

“Hoarding” referred to income, not unrealized gains.

At some level unrealized gains are more than speculative, they become leverage, but that is a whole other topic.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

“Hoarding” referred to income, not unrealized gains.

At some level unrealized gains are more than speculative, they become leverage, but that is a whole other topic.

So when those top 5% pay their tax representing 65% of all tax, they are "hoarding"? Hard to "hoard" the 35% the government leaves them.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

But you don’t know how much the govt. has taken away from what they have earned because you don’t know what they have earned. To you, this is IRRELEVANT while to me it is very RELEVANT. I can’t be any more clear.

How about the non-earners who are producing nothing, sucking off the system and pay NO taxes? Where is the indignation with that ugly fact?

I can't help but wonder why those hating our system don't seek systems that have the style of financial control they seek. I could help with the packing...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by jimbomaybe

Solution , don't be poor, market equites have produced over 8% over history, $200. a month investment over a working life of 35 years assuming a 6% compounded return you would have over 267 K

We were doing that. And then, just over a year before spouse was going to retire from a mostly-obsolete skilled labor job he'd been doing for over 40 years, his company shut down the department. He was out of work, with zero income, and not old enough yet for social security. The mortgage company continued needing their payments. We put the house on the market, and it wasn't until a year later that it finally sold.

We had almost nothing left, at that point.

And, 35 years prior, neither of us was earning enough to put away $200/month. People with high-paying jobs are completely oblivious to what people with modest incomes have to go through in life.

To wit: 35 years prior to spouse's forced retirement, we hadn't even met. 35 years to spouse's retirement, it was 1984 and I was still a student in college, working two part-time jobs and busking in the subways of Boston to pay rent while I attended school full time. A year later I was working two other part time jobs, searching for full time work, and started paying back my student loans.

There was ZERO to save during these early years. I swear so many people I meet are just SO out of touch with the reality of working class America it's disheartening.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

And why does one think that's what's relevant???? I've never asked my neighbors what they earned or how much they have. Why would anyone be so nosy???? Clear????

Unless someone thinks that the top 5% paying 65% of all taxes is somehow unfair to those paying less (or zero), it's none of their business.

I DO think the top 5% paying 65% of taxes is unfair IF they receive 90% of the net income.

You never asked your neighbors for that information because you always trusted they were in the same boat that you were (or that you were doing better and didn’t want to bring the issue up). The suspicion is that those in the top 5% are in an entirely different boat than most of the rest of the country.

Prove me wrong. Show me the fact-based statistics on earned income next to the statistics on taxes paid. Show me the statistics on effective tax rate across the board. Explain to me why one is so easy to find but the other is not.

[Pballer]

Is anybody concerned about the 500 billion dollar cuts to Medicare that may automatically be coming through the PAYGO Act (sequestration) due to the increase in deficits resulting from this bill?

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

So when those top 5% pay their tax representing 65% of all tax, they are "hoarding"? Hard to "hoard" the 35% the government leaves them.

You seem to be getting confused. As a whole they are paying 65% of all income tax collected. They are NOT paying 65% of their income as tax.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

We were doing that. And then, just over a year before spouse was going to retire from a mostly-obsolete skilled labor job he'd been doing for over 40 years, his company shut down the department. He was out of work, with zero income, and not old enough yet for social security. The mortgage company continued needing their payments. We put the house on the market, and it wasn't until a year later that it finally sold.

We had almost nothing left, at that point.

And, 35 years prior, neither of us was earning enough to put away $200/month. People with high-paying jobs are completely oblivious to what people with modest incomes have to go through in life.

We went through life with modest income and children and no college education, (that may have been our saving grace..).

What they need to teach kids in high school along with the STEM programs, is how to operate a saw, drill, wrecking bar, evaluate homes which may have lead or asbestos isuues, operate and use a tape measure, level, how to use a paint brush, how to tear out a wall and whether that wall is a support wall, how to load a dumpster, shingle, paint.. the list is large. I should add how to operate a sewing machine, mend, hem, gardening, etc.

DUMP the sports programs and get them out of the schools. They should be separate entities and the bill not footed by the public. They are so far out of whack at this point with costs and demands that educations is on standby when it comes to funding.

Colleges are turning out degreed students that can't even manage a budget and no life skills.

[jimbomaybe]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

We were doing that. And then, just over a year before spouse was going to retire from a mostly-obsolete skilled labor job he'd been doing for over 40 years, his company shut down the department. He was out of work, with zero income, and not old enough yet for social security. The mortgage company continued needing their payments. We put the house on the market, and it wasn't until a year later that it finally sold.

We had almost nothing left, at that point.

And, 35 years prior, neither of us was earning enough to put away $200/month. People with high-paying jobs are completely oblivious to what people with modest incomes have to go through in life.


To wit: 35 years prior to spouse's forced retirement, we hadn't even met. 35 years to spouse's retirement, it was 1984 and I was still a student in college, working two part-time jobs and busking in the subways of Boston to pay rent while I attended school full time. A year later I was working two other part time jobs, searching for full time work, and started paying back my student loans.

There was ZERO to save during these early years. I swear so many people I meet are just SO out of touch with the reality of working class America it's disheartening.

Unfortunately some of the decisions you made did not workout