[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

Read my opening post again. I referred to eight years of college to emphasize the fact of how long it takes to get through school. Obviously, 8 years includes 4 years of med school and 4 years of undergraduate study. No need to make this more complicated than it needs to be.

What does a pre med curriculum consist of? Two years of a foreign language, right? Do they need that to get through the first year of medical school? And how many other non-essential courses are there?

Many people have already completed foreign language in High School including Latin, Also all higher maths. Good High Schools offer many advanced placement courses and candidates for medical school would very well have taken all of those courses which are challenging and needed. Internet Tech courses are needed too. I don't know of any fluffly courses on any pre med curriculum unless you consider physical education fluffy or diet and nutrition or business management inappropriate or useless. Only the best and brightest and most prepared students are admitted to medical school.

Where do you see students in premed taking art appreciation in college?

[Villages PL]

Pre-medical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Second paragraph: "A student on a pre-med track is permitted to choose any undergraduate major in any field of study, so long as certain required courses are completed."

I question all those courses that are not required.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

Pre-medical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.ocs.fas.harvard.edu/stude...medguide12.pdf

Can't find any art appreciation. Or Music appreciation. Barry already explained the need for a good math foundation.

[2BNTV]

I don't think training is the main obstacle in becoming a doctor. When a doctor completes his/her residency, they want to start their own practice. The cost of setting up a practice and the equipment they would need, is very costly, not to mention the "malpractice insurance" cost they would have to buy.

If they weren't sued for every little thing, they would be able to start off relatively easier, and not have to charge large fees, to try and recoup all they money they spent in medical school and on education.

I personally wouldn't want to go to a doctor that took shortcuts in his/her education. A doctor should be well versed, in all facets of life. IMHO

That is what one doctor told me when his son said he wanted to follow in his footsteps. He told his son to forget about it.

[graciegirl]

We may well soon see a greater doctor shortage. The terrible stress and responsibility that a person must face being an M.D. can't be compensated with mere money.

A physician friend of mine told me recently that many people bright enough to be physicians are choosing other career paths.

The profession is not as fulfilling as it once was when doctors knew their patients personally and visited them in their homes....and now the job includes managing a staff of bookkeepers to keep up with all the forms and restrictions that must be followed to get paid. Couple that with even the most precise knowledge applied in the most concerned and ethical ways still results in the death of a patient. Dealing with death is HARD on people. Why would you choose to do that when you can make just as much money in a less stressful employment??

I don't think the ACA will get us MORE doctors, maybe less.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

http://www.ocs.fas.harvard.edu/stude...medguide12.pdf

Can't find any art appreciation. Or Music appreciation. Barry already explained the need for a good math foundation.

I'll repeat the quote from Wikipedia: "A student on a pre-med track is permitted to choose any undergraduate major in any field of study, so long as certain required courses are completed."

If they are allowed to choose any undergraduate major, then that would include art and music.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by 2BNTV

I don't think training is the main obstacle in becoming a doctor. When a doctor completes his/her residency, they want to start their own practice. The cost of setting up a practice and the equipment they would need, is very costly, not to mention the "malpractice insurance" cost they would have to buy.

If they weren't sued for every little thing, they would be able to start off relatively easier, and not have to charge large fees, to try and recoup all they money they spent in medical school and on education.

Two years less of non-required, non-essential, non-related undergraduate study would free up some of the money needed for office, equipment and insurance premiums.

I personally wouldn't want to go to a doctor that took shortcuts in his/her education. A doctor should be well versed, in all facets of life. IMHO

How about if we let people have a choice. Then those who want to can pay more for a doctor who knows more about art or music or some such undergraduate major that's not related to the field of medicine.

[blueash]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

We may well soon see a greater doctor shortage. The terrible stress and responsibility that a person must face being an M.D. can't be compensated with mere money.

A physician friend of mine told me recently that many people bright enough to be physicians are choosing other career paths.

The profession is not as fulfilling as it once was when doctors knew their patients personally and visited them in their homes....and now the job includes managing a staff of bookkeepers to keep up with all the forms and restrictions that must be followed to get paid. Couple that with even the most precise knowledge applied in the most concerned and ethical ways still results in the death of a patient. Dealing with death is HARD on people. Why would you choose to do that when you can make just as much money in a less stressful employment??

There is nothing new about bright people choosing non-physician careers. Our best and brightest should be encouraged to go into science, law, education, basic research, business, economics, politics (yes politics), etc. Deciding on medicine means giving up the ideal hedonistic years to spend that time in being taught. You had better have a high acceptance for delayed gratification. You need to get a kick out of learning, exploring difficult concepts in depth, accepting uncertainty.

Humanity. Decency. Cultural competence. Interpersonal skills. Wonder. All of these would be valuable assets for a doctor. And all would be enhanced by taking art appreciation, theater, and a wide range of what I think is still called a liberal arts education. Learning to write and speak well. Learning to organize thoughts, understand alternative points of view, learn how to learn.

Medical school is to teach a body of information much of which is rapidly going to be outdated. Undergraduate education is to provide intellectual growth, how to delve deeply into material, how to think creatively and capture that creativity for positive goals. I wouldn't want my doctor missing those years.

Getting a doctor up and running two years faster is not going to make any dent in the shortage of primary care providers. Instead consider ways to make practicing medicine more rewarding, or its flip side, less stressful. But that's another topic.

[2BNTV]

Becoming a doctor is a great achievement. IMHO

There are also downsides too:
1. Some doctors pass away at an early age as they work very long hours. Some have been known to work a 100 hours per week between their practice and hospital rounds. They also have the burden of reading all of the medical periodical to keep up with the latest advance in medicine. Sometimes their families suffer, from their absence.
2. My old family doctor quit medicine when he had to deal with insurance companies as to what test they would approve. He complained to me he was arguing with a nurse who was denying a claim as he was thinking, "where did she get her medical degree"? I'm sure they have staff that deals with that sort of thing so they can concentrate on their medical practice.
3. A long time ago, doctors were a well respected member of the community that made house calls. Their knowledge was valued and they had a greater a greater compassion for their patients.

Personally, I would not have the desire or drive to put up with the myriad of things that needed to be done, to have great practice. I would be wondering if it, was all worth it?

Today, they get sued, at the drop of a hat!!!

BTW - My old doctor in CT died from cancer, a couple of years after he left his practice! It's a shame, as he was a good guy, who never got to enjoy retirement.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by blueash

(snipped) Deciding on medicine means giving up the ideal hedonistic years to spend that time in being taught. You had better have a high acceptance for delayed gratification.

Two less years of schooling would help alleviate the above concern.

Humanity. Decency. Cultural competence. Interpersonal skills. Wonder. All of these would be valuable assets for a doctor. And all would be enhanced by taking art appreciation, theater, and a wide range of what I think is still called a liberal arts education. Learning to write and speak well. Learning to organize thoughts, understand alternative points of view, learn how to learn.

Yes, they would be valuable assets but we don't know how much more of those qualities they would have with 4 years of undergraduate study as opposed to 2 years.

Medical school is to teach a body of information much of which is rapidly going to be outdated. Undergraduate education is to provide intellectual growth, how to delve deeply into material, how to think creatively and capture that creativity for positive goals. I wouldn't want my doctor missing those years.

Then how about giving people a choice? I think a doctor might be better adjusted and more "well rounded" if he/she got out of school sooner. Especially due to the fact that a lot of college work requires memorizing rather than creativity.

Getting a doctor up and running two years faster is not going to make any dent in the shortage of primary care providers. Instead consider ways to make practicing medicine more rewarding, or its flip side, less stressful. But that's another topic.

What basis do you have for saying it won't make a dent? More people will be able to afford becoming a doctor. That alone may be a big incentive. Not to mention the fact that they wouldn't have to put off living their lives for as long. And that in itself would make life less stressful.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by 2BNTV

Becoming a doctor is a great achievement. IMHO

There are also downsides too:
1. Some doctors pass away at an early age as they work very long hours. Some have been known to work a 100 hours per week between their practice and hospital rounds. They also have the burden of reading all of the medical periodical to keep up with the latest advance in medicine. Sometimes their families suffer, from their absence.
2. My old family doctor quit medicine when he had to deal with insurance companies as to what test they would approve. He complained to me he was arguing with a nurse who was denying a claim as he was thinking, "where did she get her medical degree"? I'm sure they have staff that deals with that sort of thing so they can concentrate on their medical practice.
3. A long time ago, doctors were a well respected member of the community that made house calls. Their knowledge was valued and they had a greater a greater compassion for their patients.

Personally, I would not have the desire or drive to put up with the myriad of things that needed to be done, to have great practice. I would be wondering if it, was all worth it?

Today, they get sued, at the drop of a hat!!!

BTW - My old doctor in CT died from cancer, a couple of years after he left his practice! It's a shame, as he was a good guy, who never got to enjoy retirement.

It seems that U.S. physicians don't live as long, on average, as the rest of the population. I believe the average lifespan in the U.S. is about 78.

White physicians only live to 73 on average

Black doctors................68.7

Surgeons................68

And we entrust our health to them because they are better educated and well rounded.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

I'll repeat the quote from Wikipedia: "A student on a pre-med track is permitted to choose any undergraduate major in any field of study, so long as certain required courses are completed."

If they are allowed to choose any undergraduate major, then that would include art and music.

But they have to get into Med school which is competitive.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

It seems that U.S. physicians don't live as long, on average, as the rest of the population. I believe the average lifespan in the U.S. is about 78.

White physicians only live to 73 on average

Black doctors................68.7

Surgeons................68

And we entrust our health to them because they are better educated and well rounded.

I don't know about that.

But I do know that some posters expose us to new forms of logic. If you post something they don't agree with and validate your point.

They change the subject.
They say it is funded by the food industry.
They say it is funded by the pharmaceutical industry.
They say they read it in a book.
They say that all doctors can't be trusted.(for the above reasons)
They say that nutritionists can't be trusted.(for the above reasons)
They make unsubstantiated claims or offer proof from some obscure source.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

It seems that U.S. physicians don't live as long, on average, as the rest of the population. I believe the average lifespan in the U.S. is about 78.

White physicians only live to 73 on average

Black doctors................68.7

Surgeons................68

And we entrust our health to them because they are better educated and well rounded.

You CANNOT educate yourself into more I.Q. points. I.Q. is pretty much innate with some chance of some change but not a lot..
Only the top three percent of the population; the intellectually brightest people, are candidates for med school. No school can make you smarter. It can educate you in the material that you will need to become a physician, but you have to be smart enough to absorb it and emotionally strong enough to practice medicine.

[dbussone]

Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter

I want to be on BarryRX's team.

And have one of BarryRXs trained docs as opposed to the proposed alternative.