[blueash]

Now there's a click bait thread title for you. But CNN is reporting a criminal prosecution of a man for sexual assault on his wife who had dementia and was unable to consent. I don't know the level of her disability nor the particular act which is alleged. I am interested in a general discussion on the broader topic.

Alz.org gives this definition of sexual abuse

Sexual abuse: touching, fondling or any sexual activity when the person is unable to understand, unwilling to consent, threatened or physically forced

Do we need a paragraph in our health care documents specifying what actions our spouses may continue? Can he kiss me? Can he curl up with me at night? Can he touch me here or there? and with what body part? Is there a presumption that at some point my dementia will mean I have stopped loving him and no longer desire some physical contact either for my own or for his benefit? Fortunately we have long since moved beyond the old laws which held that a man could never be charged with rape of his wife as it was his to take and her obligation to provide. This is more nuanced, and I think sad for everyone involved.

The Villages is exactly the kind of community where perhaps this kind of discussion can, or needs to, happen

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by blueash

Now there's a click bait thread title for you. But CNN is reporting a criminal prosecution of a man for sexual assault on his wife who had dementia and was unable to consent. I don't know the level of her disability nor the particular act which is alleged. I am interested in a general discussion on the broader topic.

Alz.org gives this definition of sexual abuse

Sexual abuse: touching, fondling or any sexual activity when the person is unable to understand, unwilling to consent, threatened or physically forced

Do we need a paragraph in our health care documents specifying what actions our spouses may continue? Can he kiss me? Can he curl up with me at night? Can he touch me here or there? and with what body part? Is there a presumption that at some point my dementia will mean I have stopped loving him and no longer desire some physical contact either for my own or for his benefit? Fortunately we have long since moved beyond the old laws which held that a man could never be charged with rape of his wife as it was his to take and her obligation to provide. This is more nuanced, and I think sad for everyone involved.

The Villages is exactly the kind of community where perhaps this kind of discussion can, or needs to, happen

Did the woman with dementia file a complaint against her husband?

[Taltarzac725]

I would have to know more about the facts in this case mentioned? Is there a history of physical and or mental abuse in that family?

Good topic though.

I changed the name of the first man convicted of wife rape in Minnesota. The name change was back around 1989 and the court was required to notify the ex-wife of the name change so I did not feel bad for the victim. The Judge and her staff though sure were very upset with me about filing these papers. I was a Student Attorney with Legal Assistance to Minnesota Prisoners back then and did not have the opportunity to pick and choose the cases I got. You handled whatever was on your desk.

I looked at the file and there seemed to be a history of domestic abuse so the wife said no to her husband having sex with her. He was the first person in Minnesota convicted of raping his wife.

I am not going into any more detail on it as I would feel like it were violating some kind of attorney/client privilege. I may even be going a little too far with talking about this but this was from 1988-1989 or so. And, what I posted would be a matter of public record if you knew where to look.

[Bizdoc]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

Did the woman with dementia file a complaint against her husband?

I think that one of the issues is that she is apparently sufficiently demented that she is not capable of filing a complaint. Meanwhile, the skilled nursing facility has a duty to protect her and a legal obligation (in most states) to notify authorities if they suspect that a sexual assault has occurred.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by Bizdoc

I think that one of the issues is that she is apparently sufficiently demented that she is not capable of filing a complaint. Meanwhile, the skilled nursing facility has a duty to protect her and a legal obligation (in most states) to notify authorities if they suspect that a sexual assault has occurred.

I didn't realize it was established that she lives in a skilled nursing facility and that a third party observed the sexual assault.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by blueash

Now there's a click bait thread title for you. But CNN is reporting a criminal prosecution of a man for sexual assault on his wife who had dementia and was unable to consent. I don't know the level of her disability nor the particular act which is alleged. I am interested in a general discussion on the broader topic.

Alz.org gives this definition of sexual abuse

Sexual abuse: touching, fondling or any sexual activity when the person is unable to understand, unwilling to consent, threatened or physically forced

Do we need a paragraph in our health care documents specifying what actions our spouses may continue? Can he kiss me? Can he curl up with me at night? Can he touch me here or there? and with what body part? Is there a presumption that at some point my dementia will mean I have stopped loving him and no longer desire some physical contact either for my own or for his benefit? Fortunately we have long since moved beyond the old laws which held that a man could never be charged with rape of his wife as it was his to take and her obligation to provide. This is more nuanced, and I think sad for everyone involved.

The Villages is exactly the kind of community where perhaps this kind of discussion can, or needs to, happen

I think a woman should be able to specify in writing which intimate behaviors are acceptable, assuming she believes it's necessary to do so.

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by Bizdoc

I think that one of the issues is that she is apparently sufficiently demented that she is not capable of filing a complaint. Meanwhile, the skilled nursing facility has a duty to protect her and a legal obligation (in most states) to notify authorities if they suspect that a sexual assault has occurred.

Vulnerable women and children must be protected. If she suffers from dementia, she is probably not capable of making informed decisions.
Therefore the onus is on the skilled nursing facility to protect her and notify authorities of any improper activity.

[OBXNana]

After 39 years of marriage and only my perspective from the point of view of a wife, my husband would not have initiated that type of intimacy if I had dementia. He might snuggle, hold me, or comfort me.

If it is classified as rape when an individual is given something in a drink making them unable to clearly define their desires, how can someone with late stage (we don't know what stage of dementia the person had in the original post) dementia be any different in their ability to express their sexual boundaries?

This is a thought provoking thread. As we age we don't know what will happen to our minds or bodies. What we do know it is still our body, no mater how the mind may be working. Nobody is certain what a person with different forms of dementia understand or comprehend.

[blueash]

A good summary of the evidence of this particular case is here:
Questions About*Sex and Dementia Go to a Jury for the First Time - Bloomberg Business

A more detailed account of the allegations is here:
Can a Wife With Dementia Say Yes to Sex? - Bloomberg

However the take home problem is that no one will ever know what the woman would have wanted, whether she was benefitted not harmed by whatever happened, and it is important to note there was no evidence of sexual assault or injury. And as the article concludes

There’s potential for this case to have a good impact even if it’s a bad result for Mr. Rayhons,” Pearson says. “Other states will look at their statutes and decide if they want a case like this to be a criminal prosecution.” Or it could prompt caregivers, elder-care facilities, families, and dementia sufferers themselves to engage in discussions about what is or isn’t permissible before something uncomfortable occurs.

“Just think what would have happened here if there had been an actual dialogue with family and caregivers and even Mrs. Rayhons to find out her understanding of the situation,” Pearson says. “More time was spent on prosecution than on counseling. It’s just sad.”

It was my hope in bringing this case to the forum that some discussion about how we would want this in our own situations might occur, not so much whether the exact particulars of this case warrant legal intervention.

[OBXNana]

"It was my hope in bringing this case to the forum that some discussion about how we would want this in our own situations might occur, not so much whether the exact particulars of this case warrant legal intervention.[/QUOTE]"

My hope too for this thread. You started what has the potential of having a lot of good ideas from people that are of similar age. Touch is the first sense we acquire. If touch is a language, it's something we take for granted. Just because I have dementia I would hope my children would still give me hugs or my grandchildren hold my hand. Even in late stages of dementia you are encouraged to touch.

I become more confused with the thought of intimacy that is an important part to many marriages or relationships. That importance wouldn't diminish for the person without dementia. But, how do you know what the person wants with dementia? How can a person put into their living will what they want, not knowing how their mind will work when many brain cells are no longer working?

Because I have had a wonderful relationship for many years, I think if I were diagnosed with early unset dementia, I would want to continue all levels of intimacy that I have with friends, relatives, and husband. Each is different. For me, and only my opinion, as a result of this thread, if I find I am in early stage of any form of dementia, I will note intimacy may continue at all levels with those that have been close to me for many years.

Having seen late stage dementia, I can't imagine sexual intimacy being of pleasure to the person without the disease and we don't know what the person with the disease is thinking.

Only my opinion. Would love to see other peoples thoughts, but it may be too personal to express. That is ok too.

[Bizdoc]

My mother, who has a well documented dementia, is no longer able to identify me. She also talks regularly about my father visiting her daily (he died in November of 2014) and calls her on her TV remote. She knows her own first name, but has trouble remembering her last name. When her brother visited in December, she didn't know who he was.

The problem with having a written declaration is that the demented person will have no memory of having signed it. They are not likely to be able to made an informed decision as they will (at a point in the progress of their dementia), no longer be able to reason. They may or may not even recognize their spouse or have any concept of what their "spousal duties" are.

Using the "she didn't say no" argument is kind of like saying it is OK to have sex with someone in a coma because "they didn't say no".

As I explained to my accountant/close friend, trying to reason with a person with dementia is like trying to reason with a 2 year old. However, my college room mate (who has watched his parents descend into dementia) puts it even better - "Aliens stole my mother's brain."

[blueash]

A couple good posts, thank you. In the longer Bloomberg article there are some quotes from experts about how dementia may alter one's sexual needs and the benefit that human touch or intimacy can have for the person. These are generalities but do help with trying to gain some level of insight. I agree that "she didn't say no" is not an acceptable reason. However a non-comatose person can certainly express displeasure, pain, discomfort as well as smile, interest, and seeming to be comforted. Would a spouse hopefully be able to differentiate these feelings? I would not want touch withheld even intimate contact if my spouse thought it might help me or pleasure me even if I were unable to give a formal yes. I would be horrified if the legal system took action against her for continuing to love me in all the ways she can. But I don't see a way to make broad rules that also protect patients who are unable to consent and would not have consented had they been less disabled.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by blueash

A couple good posts, thank you. In the longer Bloomberg article there are some quotes from experts about how dementia may alter one's sexual needs and the benefit that human touch or intimacy can have for the person. These are generalities but do help with trying to gain some level of insight. I agree that "she didn't say no" is not an acceptable reason. However a non-comatose person can certainly express displeasure, pain, discomfort as well as smile, interest, and seeming to be comforted. Would a spouse hopefully be able to differentiate these feelings? I would not want touch withheld even intimate contact if my spouse thought it might help me or pleasure me even if I were unable to give a formal yes. I would be horrified if the legal system took action against her for continuing to love me in all the ways she can. But I don't see a way to make broad rules that also protect patients who are unable to consent and would not have consented had they been less disabled.

Where's there a bureaucrat they will find a way of writing rules. Common sense and empathy though are so much better. Why the jury system is so important to finding the facts and getting justice. Intelligent discussions like this one sure help in prevention of legal problems in the future. I hope more people will think and post about this issue.

My almost hundred year Grandmother has Alzheimer's and does not even recognize her two daughters often. I doubt if she would recognize her husband if he were alive. There do seem to be serious issues about the validity of whether there was true consent with people who have these kind of problems.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by blueash

But I don't see a way to make broad rules that also protect patients who are unable to consent and would not have consented had they been less disabled.

The rules could apply to how the patients are housed in nursing facilities. I've been to nursing homes and have seen as many as six dementia patients to a room with no privacy, no closed doors. Perhaps no doors at all on the rooms. It's not likely that anything unusual will happen in such an open environment, in my opinion.

Those who have advanced dementia don't need private rooms because they don't need privacy.

[dewilson58]

Being from Iowa.............Here is a link for the story:

Jury: Iowa man not guilty of abusing wife who had dementia

"During the trial, nursing home staffers testified that Donna Lou Rayhons' roommate alluded to the couple having sex behind a curtain, but that she never explicitly told them they were having sex. Testimony from the roommate revealed that she was unsure whether the noises she heard that day were sexual in nature, but that they made her uncomfortable."