The executive greens
 

I was just listening to The Villages radio station. The talk show host and the golf pro from Arnold Palmer Golf course were discussing the condition of the course's greens. The pro was saying that they were in pristine condition and that they were lightning fast because they have been double cut. I have a question that I hope that some of you more experienced golfers can answer for me.

Yesterday I played one of my favorite exec. course's, Amberwood. All I can say about that course is that it is a wonderful and challenging course except for the greens. They are in horrible condition. So bad in fact that even a short putt would be no more then a lucky stroke. I find that many of our exec. have similar problems albeit not as bad.

My question is: If they can keep the Champion course greens in such good condition, then why not the same conditions at the exec. course's?

Do you pay an "Extra" $30+ to play the executive courses? You do on the championship courses. Plus another $1000 priority per year.

I have not been on the execs lately and I have not played Palmer for a month+.

Lightning fast in TV means they are running at 8 ;)

I played Tierra and Havana (Kenya/Hemingway) this weekend. The greens are ..... ok... say 7 of 10, but pristine would be an overstatement ;). As I said, I have not been on Palmer for a bit, so cannot comment there...

Tierra's greens were better on average than Havana.

I have said before I think this winter has really affected the course conditions. Conditions will vary from course to course quite a bit exec or championship, so because Amberwood is having issues, does not mean that Pelican is...

I did however get to play in shorts with no stocking hat or turtle neck. I cannot remember how many times I said "WOW it is nice out". I do not remember once saying " I wish the greens were better" :)

The pro at Palmer would say it's a beautiful day in the middle of a hurricane!!!!!

The number of players on the exec's is far greater than on any of the champion courses. Add to that the sub freezing temps we have had....we are lucky to have grass!

Greens
 

I did not ask my question to create a problem. Regor is telling us that if we pay more we would have better greens. Sorry regor but, I pay what is asked of me. The course conditions, in my humble opinion, are the result of poor maintenance.

Played at Baseline the other day and the greens were fine. I can't understand why the weather conditions would affect one green more then another. I also do not understand why it sometimes takes five shots to get there :crap2:

But don't you feel that if they had more money, they could spend more to keep the greens in better shape? I have almost always noted that if I pay $100 for a round of golf, the course is generally in better condition than say a course where I pay $15 or so.

If instead of free golf, I feel that The Villages could have much better course conditions if they charged an additional fee for golf on the executive courses.

Please No additional cost. I would rather play for the cost of my monthly amenities fee then have an extra fee to have the courses in better condition. The courses work great for me and I love the "Free Golf".

:pepper2::pepper2::pepper2:

Double Par Halle

Please don't assume that all the Championship courses are in good condition. It just is not so. I played Orange Blossom a couple of weeks ago and it was horrible. Their greens used to be the best around, since the course is mature, but no longer. I happened to play with a fellow who personally knows the crew chief from OneSource who maintains the course, and apparently the chief was told to cut back this year on the overseeding(the courses are overseeded with rye in the winter. The rye is cold hardy, and gives us green fairways, greens and teeboxes in the winter when the bermuda or whatever the undergrass is, goes dormant). You really can see it on OB - the greens and fairways look like they have the measles - little spots of rye on the dormant undergrass. Mallory is in okay condition - I'd give it a 6 out of 10. Hacienda is pretty good but there are some bare spots on the greens, Cane is pretty good - maybe an 8 out of 10. Palmer charges the premium greens fees and they put the potential home buyers out there so they're going to keep up the conditions of that golf course. If you notice, other greens on golf courses in the area are in better condition than those in The Villages, and they have all experienced the frost. As the guy from OneSource said, if they had been overseeded properly, the frost would not be much of a factor. I noticed that the practice putting green at Sarasota is in fine shape, so they must have overseeded it properly, and obviously it wasn't hurt by the frost.

I think OneSource cut back on the overseeding to save some money, and I hope to heck someone is keeping an eye on them.

Another maintenance issue I noticed the other day was out at Lopez. I don't remember which hole it was, but I was in a greenside bunker and the sand was completely filled with little pebbles, probably one about every 2-3 inches. That is a real no no. You can damage your club, and you can't hit the sand before the ball - you'll hit a pebble instead. They must have gotten a cheap load of sand somewhere. The other bunkers were fine, and I've never noticed that problem anywhere else in The Villages, but again, possibly another cost cutting measure. The Villages pays OneSource to maintain these courses, and if they do a crummy job, we need to either let them know, or else find another company that can do a better job.

I don't play Executive golf so I can't comment on the conditions, but this place is advertised as a golfing community. If they don't maintain the courses, our properties will lose value to communities that have nice courses. I'm a golfer, and frankly, if all the courses are going to be like this, I will be moving. I don't think it is a question of us paying more - I think it is a question of having OneSource do the job they are already paid to do. The sad thing is - if you let things go, it becomes harder to get them back in good shape. Kind of lilke maintaining your house - if you keep at it and do the upkeep its much easier than having to replace things down the road. Sorry if I seem grumpy - I love The Villages and the golf here has been wonderful, but I'm really disappointed in the conditions this year.

I would think that I am not as knowledgeable as a Club Pro but one thing for sure, my definition of pristine is not even close to his definition. Fast, yes, because the grass is so thin on the greens it is like putting on plain dirt. Whenever you see "black" thru the grass then the grass is too thin. These greens are anything but pristine. I play the various Championship courses 3 times weekly and these greens are worse than Hacienda Hills , Mallory Hill or Cane Garden.

I'm coming down in March to buy but not if the golf courses are as bad as they are. It is a golf community and with out good greens the place will be in trouble.This really should be looked into.I was down last October and the greens and golf courses were in really good shape. It's what got me to return. Renters not just buyers will be affected.

Exec. Greens
 

waynet and bb14616 are making my point much better then I did. They basically said all the things that I was thinking when I started this thread. It was the great "free" golf that enticed us to buy here and I am sure the same could be said for thousands of other folks that live here or will live here in the future. This golf amenity is advertised and promoted by the developer. It is not something that was demanded by the residents. I think that the developer should be congratulated for the wonderful lifestyle here. All I am pointing out is one flaw. Simply stated, One Source or whoever is responsible for the maintenance of the greens, needs to do a better job. Our golf experience here and our property values depend on it.

Free Golf in Paradise
 

The golf is free on the executive courses, they are challenging layouts with some beautiful scenery. The greens change from excellent to just okay, like championship courses. Our amenity fees pay for these courses and I feel we are getting our money's worth considering the price FREE! I live in a retirees paradise, many free (due to our amenity fee) activities. PLEASE DO NOT SUGGEST CHARGING FOR THESE ACTIVITIES!!!

greens.
 

My thought is that there is less seeding per sq. ft. and may even be a cheaper variety of seed. Unless we make our gripes known to the powers that be, nothing will be done. I'm glad to see that word is getting out to prospective buyers as this may have an impact on the companys that do the course maintenance. (and that includes the execs). In turn the developer may find it useful to get more involved in this issue.

Executive and Championship courses
 

We all have specific complaints regarding the quality of grass, quality of seeding, etc. My area of specific complaint is in regards to the Ball Washers at almost every hole, they contain the filthiest, non soapy water you can imagine. It is terrible to use when cleaning your golf balls, as well as the lousy towels they use. Call them what you will. They lack the little touches that make big differences to me.

if you have a complaint about something in TV go to the villages.net and post it, there is link at the bottom of the page called CIC (community improvement council), send them an email with your issue, complaining on this site will not solve a thing, just my .02, the greens on the executive courses stack up pretty well when compared to the championship courses in TV and courses outside TV, some are better than others and some need some work....gn

Every ball washer I attempted to use today at Palmer was bone dry.

Consideration
 

I remember a Senior Executive in a major 500 Corporation who belonged to a private country club. He also played golf at a semi private club and it became clear that the semi private club had better greens and fairways than the very high priced private club. He told me one day that he told the green superintendent that (a) either he was not getting enough funds to have a good course or (b) he did not know how to do the job. Which was it?
This could relate to the Executive courses problems that are being raised. The question is "which is it"? I would suspect it is a little mixture of both since some meet good standards and some don't..
Maybe someone can help me as I honestly don't know the answer.Does some of the amenity fees paid go toward golf maintenance?:read:

Excellent Post. I played OB for the first time two weeks ago and do not care if I ever play there again. The greens were horrible. Played Palmer today. Greens are very fast due to lack of grass. They are very green like the tees due apparently from green paint.
What is weird is some exec's like saddlebrook and el santiago, as well as their practice greens have great greens while other exec's like Belmont, Amberwood etc suck.
We are new and have guest coming down cause we raved about the place (which everything but the greens is true) but will be totally embarrassed by these greens. Many villages report good greens on courses outside of the villages. They had the same weather so what happened? To me, this is an extremely important issue.

What did the club Pro say when you told him about your concern?

Couldn't find him; must have been at the radio station talking about his "pristine" greens.

Trust but verify
 

Is there anyway that a group could be formed (or maybe it exist) to have a owner / CDD members inspect and report conditions ( check lists / pictures) to give the developer objective feedback. A "caretakers club" perhaps?

I have know idea how funds are allocated for maintenance and renovation.
Can some one fill me in.

Is each CDD responsible for its own courses?
Have any of the older courses been renovated?
Is there a reserve set up to handle extraordinary problems( hurricane, tornado).

I believe that we all understand that seeding ,watering and fertilizer errors occur and that weather is sometime difficult. But we would like some assurance that problems have been identified and solutions are not left to luck , optimism and good intentions.

I play at least one different course outside TV every week and play TV courses the other 6 days, IMO (remember it's MHO) the courses in TV are equal or better than any other course within the 20 miles we travel. IMO if you're not happy with the courses here you might want to get while the gettins good, for me I'M HERE FOR THE DURATION.....GN

Sorry , I did not mean to upset anyone
 

I was just trying to be constructive.

i'm not upset at all, sorry if it came off that way....gn

It is embarrasing when friends come. And like you said, even within our own community, some courses are good and others aren't, and they all experienced the weather conditions. In the past, we might have had one course that was not good. For example, the past few years Cane Garden was dry and hard, so we used to play Orange Blossum and Tierra because the greens were so terrific. But this season, it seems like about half the (Championship) courses have poor conditions, and it isn't even just the greens. The fairways are clumpy so you have patches of grass, then patches with no grass, so it is like playing out of a divot if your ball happens to land in the no grass area. I've never seen it like that here. I imagine the heat and rain we've had the past week will help things regenerate, but its been about 2 months of crap conditions, and here we are paying top dollar in greens fees.

I like soonFL's idea of forming a committee to report to the CDD on maintenance issues with the Executive and Championship courses, if they don't have one already. The question I ask myself, is even if the CDD does have a committee and is aware of the conditions, will they do anything, particularly if it involves spending more money? With so many people here this time of year, and the shortage of tee times, they seem to have no trouble filling the time slots, so is there an incentive for them to make the golf course conditions better?

Greens
 

Sorry to say golfnut but, you did sound a bit angry. Look, I'm a fairly new resident here and I love this place and your suggestion that I "get" if I have a reasonable comment about the maintenance of the greens is a little unfair. The Villages affords us the best retirement lifestyle in the USA, that said however, every once in a while a little flaw raises it's ugly head ( have you been reading this website? ) It is, in my opinion, the right thing to do is, to open a discussion on something that bothers you and that you feel also affects your friends and neighbors, not to mention your property value. What I learned from this discussion so far, and I have you to thank for it is, how to voice my concerns on The Villages.net. I will take your advice and post my comments there. In closing, I played Oakley yesterday and Amberwood the day before and in my opinion the greens on those to courses should be an embarassment to whomever is responsible for their mantenance.

Oh Boy
 

Oh Boy this will probably get me some "bad notes" but I feel it is right to raise it as a question. If the Golf Division were hiring personnel who felt free to raise their voices we would probably not be facing these critical points. If the golf division established a program of feedback and listened then the problems would not exist. It is logical to believe that complaints are not being brought forward, or someone is "turning their back" to the complaints as they either lack the knowledge as to how to fix the problems, or are not getting the funds to do the work or concerned about their jobs if they speak up? There are enough complaints to set the stage there is something wrong. The question is why they are not being addressed?:faint:

Recently, I've played Turtle Mound, Saddlebrook & Heron -- all greens were terrible! Putts bounce all over the place on the rough surface.

I'm not a good enough golfer to understand the fine nuances of good greens vs acceptable greens. Playing primarily the exec courses, I certainly have noticed an inconsistent quality in how they play.

Anyway, one clarification to note here for those who aren't aware. The championship courses are owned by the developer and he/his businesses determine the budget and priorities for maintenance.

The executive courses are supported by our amenity fees. Some of these courses are owned by the central CDD but many are still owned by the developer who gets a portion of the amenity fee for operation and maintenance.

Golfthevillages.com website has a "contact us" link where you can send in written comments about champ/exec/tee times, etc. Or you can call the golf division offices and register your concerns. Let 'em know about the extensive discussion here on TOTV, including comments from prospective buyers that golf conditions could affect their buying decision.

I agree, instead of complaining here call t-time office at 750-4558 and find out who will listen to your issues..............Go to the source.

I have recently voiced my concerns about the conditions of the Championship courses via golfthevillages.com but have yet to receive a response. But on the other hand, is this not a discussion forum where both the pros and cons on a subject can be discussed? It appears that if you do not agree with some members opinions then you are labeled a complainer or worse yet told to "get out now". How friendly is that?

Please continue to post your discussion points here. This is a forum for that.

I don't think anybody is tell you to get out of the forum.

Tony
 

There are some of us that are a little thin skinned and I do place myself in that category. That is why I do not often post. I love an intelligent mannerly debate of issues that affect all of us but, unfortunately, some folks can not respond without sarcasm or anger when they disagree with someone over an issue. Passion is good, rudeness is not.

As you can tell from some of the responses here, the exec. greens could certainly be better maintained. Why don't all of us that agree, email the CIC and the powers that be in the golf office. I already have and an waiting for their responce.

Thank you Tony

As one who has yet to buy in TV, I can say that the conditions of the golf courses as well as other amenities is very important to our decision to locate there. I agree that this forum is very important in terms of raising valid issues that are of concern and it provides very valuable insight. It is an excellent place to exchange ideas and information. Sometimes, however, the written word can be misinterpreted, or the writer may not concisely communicate what they really mean to say due to the limitations of putting things in writing quickly. Writing is just cumbersome and there is no nuance in terms of voice inflection or body language, etc. I myself have looked back at some of my posts and see how they may not really communicate what I meant, or could easily be misunderstood. So, I am hoping we can all try to "cut each other a little slack" and keep our focus on helping TV to be such a great place to live... that includes raising issues at times that may ruffle a few feathers.

Finally, with all the golfers in TV this thread seems to have generated a lot of interest and I hope we will all be motivated to voice our concerns directly to those who can and should fix whatever issue is at hand as well as continuing to post here. With that in mind, I am wondering why a Topic Category such as "All About Golf" is not on the Forum. It would not necessarily be just for "complaints and issues"... I can see it being like most other topics where people comment, complement, complain, ask questions, give advice, etc. From there, other real world associations might develop ranging from groups organized to play golf to those interested in keeping the pressure on in terms of course quality. Who knows someone might even organize something and call it the TEE Party Movement! :laugh:

Don't let this change the subject, but how does one request that a topic be added to the forum such as "All About Golf"? Do we just ask the moderators, or would it be best to start a thread to see if the is enough interest? If this has been done before, please accept my apology... I'm relatively new to this.

lots of great ideas here, bear and allen and others, once again i did not intend to be angry or sarcastic, this subject comes up over and over, i will tell you again I have played no less than 25 courses outside TV in the last 6 months and i find our courses overall are in better condition, that does no mean we don't have some courses that need attention here or there, i have been here five years and have not seen any degredation in the courses, IMHO they are probably a little better now, there will always be issues with one course or another, it's the same in TV and outside TV, now just don't ask me to explain it....gn

Greens
 

Allen, Great post. Thank you. I am eager to sign up for the TEE PARTY :wave:

You will get closer to the source by calling Country Club Administration 750-4558, for the championship. They in turn can direct you to someone for the execs.

Feedback for officials
 

It might also be helpful to provide feedback to the Amenity Authority Committee (AAC). Here's a link:

http://www.districtgov.org/aac/aac.aspx

The top link on from that page provides a link to "email all ACC Members". (Links are also provided to email individual ACC members separately.)

The Village Center Community Development District (CDD) '09-'10 budget includes approx. $1 million for Golf Management Services, while the Sumpter Landing CDD includes approx. $817K for same. District 1-10 budgets include various line items for utilities, irrigation, landscaping maintenance, etc. These line items do not specify whether they include golf course expenses.

Here's a link to the annual CDD budgets:
http://www.districtgov.org/departmen...albudgets.aspx

Just my opinion but if you consider the amount of play that the executive courses get and the weather conditions in the past month, I think you can understand why the greens are in such bad shapes.

Some of the greens are in better shape than others and I would expect that it is because of the different weather conditions. I understand that there is only an 11 mile difference from end to end but some areas get more rain, frost, and wind then the other areas. If you check the frost delays on channel 2 in the morning there is a one to three hour frost delay between the different championship courses and their executive counterparts. I would have figured that they would all have the same delay but Lopez will open at 8 and Palmer will open at 9 and Tierra Del Sol at 9:30. This means that the executive courses governed by Lopez course will get walked on earlier and damage the greens more.

Last Wednesday, Walnut Grove, Amberwood, Briarwood and Oakley were on a 8:30 delay but the Ladies day was still scheduled for 7:45 at Briarwood. Go figure.

Also, not to defend the executive courses but I do not think the championship courses get as much play as the executive courses anyway so they should be more pristine.