At the risk of initiating a giant exchange of vitriol here, I submit an idea presented by Tom Friedman in his column in today's New York Times.

Here's the thought he presented...

“....Obamacare is socialized medicine,” says the Republican Party. No, no — excuse me — socialized medicine is what we have now! People without insurance can go to an emergency ward or throw themselves on the mercy of a doctor, and the cost of all this uncompensated care is shared by all those who have insurance, raising your rates and mine. That is socialized medicine and that is what Obamacare ends..."

Friedman makes a good point, don't you think?

Originally Posted by Villages Kahuna

At the risk of initiating a giant exchange of vitriol here, I submit an idea presented by Tom Friedman in his column in today's New York Times.

Here's the thought he presented...

“....Obamacare is socialized medicine,” says the Republican Party. No, no — excuse me — socialized medicine is what we have now! People without insurance can go to an emergency ward or throw themselves on the mercy of a doctor, and the cost of all this uncompensated care is shared by all those who have insurance, raising your rates and mine. That is socialized medicine and that is what Obamacare ends..."

Friedman makes a good point, don't you think?

YEP....good, but EXTREMELY NARROW point I would say. Healthcare is a very very complicated issue and while I understand what he says, we have a lot of things, no...most things are now "socialized".

Just read where over 49 percent of ALL american families have one or more on some government dole list....just about 1/2. If you take away Social Security etc....those who actually paid in to get benefits, there are over 30% (I believe) on government payment roles as of now. Then we have a thread on here where they will take your kids lunch away if they dont like it and replace it with what they want you to eat.

Yeah, all I can think of us that cliff facing us...this cannot continue !

Yes BUT.....there are still way too many things we do not get like hearing aids and for most no dental and a whole lot more AND our taxes are way too low to be truly socialized anything, however, there is growth in that direction.....except the politicians of today do not want to raise taxes.

Look at some almost totally socialized countries like Belgium...."free" medical"....."free" college education, etc...and tax rates over 50% in many cases.

One cannot be done without the other.

btk

Originally Posted by Bucco

YEP....good, but EXTREMELY NARROW point I would say. Healthcare is a very very complicated issue and while I understand what he says, we have a lot of things, no...most things are now "socialized".

Just read where over 49 percent of ALL american families have one or more on some government dole list....just about 1/2. If you take away Social Security etc....those who actually paid in to get benefits, there are over 30% (I believe) on government payment roles as of now. Then we have a thread on here where they will take your kids lunch away if they dont like it and replace it with what they want you to eat.

Yeah, all I can think of us that cliff facing us...this cannot continue !

Trying to figure out if I, or any of family, is on a "dole list" somewhere.

Originally Posted by billethkid

....Look at some almost totally socialized countries like Belgium...."free" medical"....."free" college education, etc...and tax rates over 50% in many cases.

One cannot be done without the other.

btk

Again, not trying to start a big argument here. But if the system in a country like Belgium produces a healthier population with longer life expectancies, a population more literate and better educated than ours, and a quality of life that produces a high level of satisfaction and high expectations for the future among its residents....it seems to me that considering a much higher level of taxation might be worth it.

Whether becoming a socialized economy and culture is the answer, I don't know. What I do know is that the U.S. doesn't compare very well with Belgium on the measures you posed.

if you saw the movie The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel, maggie smith's character in england had to wait six months for a hip replacement...that is socialized medicine.

Originally Posted by chachacha

if you saw the movie The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel, maggie smith's character in england had to wait six months for a hip replacement...that is socialized medicine.

I am planning to see that movie. It sounds pretty good from the reviews I have heard.

I have no problem at all with a goal of becoming a socialized nation if that is what in fact is the best for the country and we the people.

What I strenuously object to is the hap hazard, no plan, no follow through, no funding political football, buy votes approach to getting there. Because we won't that way even if it is the best solution for our future.

Of course it would be worth the higher taxes paid to make it happen. In our politically divided, self centered, we the people are last on the totem pole environment....that just will not happen.

In Belgium you will find unhappiness with the system because those who have the money to pay the tax rates do not like carrying those who might never pay a dime. That would be the loudest cry of all here in America and the primary cause for doing the willy nilly way we are....with the buying of votes as the objective....instead of doing right for the people and the country.

When I hear BS like Obama being the "warrior for the middle class" it makes me sick to my stomach because he has no intention other than his promises.....with the only goal to get their votes.
When is the last time we heard Obama say....here is what we are going to do for the middle class....here is how we are going to do it....and here is how we pay for it and this is when it will begin??????

We are suffering as a country now because of the political lack of leadership. To do a socialized plan takes real leadership and political risk.
That will never happen with an Obama administration.

btk

Originally Posted by chachacha

if you saw the movie The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel, maggie smith's character in england had to wait six months for a hip replacement...that is socialized medicine.

True! I have lived in 2 countries with socialized medicine and have needed help in both. The hospitals / service was AWFUL! I would never, EVER recommend 100% socialized medicine for our country.

With all due respect:

Heck, why do you think all the Canadians come to the U.S. for surgery? Because they can't simply can't wait the time they are told it would be. I know.

Originally Posted by De Lis

With all due respect: Heck, why do you think all the Canadians come to the U.S. for surgery? Because they can't simply can't wait the time they are told it would be.

De Lis, as a Canadian, I know what you mean. It is true that there are waiting times for elective surgery, and some of the wealthier Canadians choose to pay to have surgery in the US.

However the statement "all the Canadians come to the US for surgery" is not accurate. In Canada, if you have a life-threatening condition, like a stroke or heart attack, you will get the best free medical care. I've had a life-threatening condition, and I was immediately parachuted to the head of the line. I was in hospital for three months. I received surgeries I required with no delay. The medical treatment I received was incredible, and the specialists involved were top notch.

However if you need "elective" surgery, you may have to wait for a few months. My interpretation of elective surgery is surgery for a condition that doesn't have to happen immediately. I'm referring to procedures such as arthroscopic surgery, knee replacement, hip replacement, etc. Again, those in serious need of replacement operations will be parachuted to the head of the line. Unfortunately this means that some less serious cases may have a longer wait time.

Originally Posted by Barefoot

De Lis, as a Canadian, I know what you mean. It is true that there are waiting times for elective surgery, and some of the wealthier Canadians choose to pay to have surgery in the US.

However the statement "all the Canadians come to the US for surgery" is not accurate. In Canada, if you have a life-threatening condition, like a stroke or heart attack, you will get the best free medical care. I've had a life-threatening condition, and I was immediately parachuted to the head of the line. I was in hospital for three months. I received surgeries I required with no delay. The medical treatment I received was incredible, and the specialists involved were top notch.

However if you need "elective" surgery, you may have to wait for a few months. My interpretation of elective surgery is surgery for a condition that doesn't have to happen immediately. I'm referring to procedures such as arthroscopic surgery, knee replacement, hip replacement, etc. Again, those in serious need of replacement operations will be parachuted to the head of the line. Unfortunately this means that some less serious cases may have a longer wait time.

Good posting, Barefoot. Glad everything came out good for you for your medical issue.

As for having to wait for elective surgery, so what? If the procedure is going to be free and is going to be top quality, a wait is well worth it.

The immediate care issues will be dealt with on a top priority basis which is how it should work.

Not like the organ transplant system in the US of who is famous gets the organ first. Cases in point are Mickey Mantle and Darth Vader.

Originally Posted by billethkid

I have no problem at all with a goal of becoming a socialized nation if that is what in fact is the best for the country and we the people.

What I strenuously object to is the hap hazard, no plan, no follow through, no funding political football, buy votes approach to getting there. Because we won't that way even if it is the best solution for our future.

Of course it would be worth the higher taxes paid to make it happen. In our politically divided, self centered, we the people are last on the totem pole environment....that just will not happen.

In Belgium you will find unhappiness with the system because those who have the money to pay the tax rates do not like carrying those who might never pay a dime. That would be the loudest cry of all here in America and the primary cause for doing the willy nilly way we are....with the buying of votes as the objective....instead of doing right for the people and the country.

When I hear BS like Obama being the "warrior for the middle class" it makes me sick to my stomach because he has no intention other than his promises.....with the only goal to get their votes.
When is the last time we heard Obama say....here is what we are going to do for the middle class....here is how we are going to do it....and here is how we pay for it and this is when it will begin??????

We are suffering as a country now because of the political lack of leadership. To do a socialized plan takes real leadership and political risk.
That will never happen with an Obama administration.

btk

I agree completely, Billie. But when we look around at who to blame, somehow I keep coming back to "we the People". And with the seeming broadening of the ideological divide within the population, it seems as though it's harder for those elected to represent us to accomplish anything except the "hap hazard, no plan, no follow through, no funding political football, buy votes approach" that we're seeing now.

I wish I had an answer. Maybe it's a temporary benevolent dictatorship, one where all the serious issues are dealt with before we go back to being a democratic republic. But I'm afraid we can't get there from here.

In all due respect to the Saint Louis Park, MN resident, Tom Friedman's opinion is short sighted. I would rather continue with the present system we have with one change, a goal to computerize all records to faciliate communications and the payment process among the medical community, insurance community and consumers.

You may get a glimpse of what ObamaCare holds for us all if you saw the TV report about the teachers union in Buffalo New York that pays for face lifts, liposuction, etc. I don't want to pay for someone's vanity? Do you?

Presently in America like Canada all surgeries are elective unless they are considered an emergency. However unlike Canada the waiting time for elective surgeries do not have long tails

We do not have "socialized medicine" in a true sense, but rather a patchwork of private insurance, self-payers who actually pay their bills, and government-run Medicare and Medicaid.

I think we should be more concerned about politicians' motives in promoting socialized medicine than the concept of it. And we should be even more concerned about the fact that never have Congress, the Administration, nor the federal employees and their unions included themselves in any proposed government single-payer healthcare system.

They are not going to let go of their choice of 20+ private cadillac healthcare plans with the bulk of premiums paid by the taxpayer!

See:Insurance Programs



"The goal of socialism is communism."

"Give us the child for 8 years and it will be a Bolshevik forever."

-- Vladimir Lenin

i am actually shocked that so many americans, even BTK, seem to see no danger in the govt taking over one sixth of our economy in our health care system...don't you see what is happening in socialist europe? the govt is running out of money to pay all these goodies which they promised in order to gain POWER (their only objective) and now the people are rioting in the streets! it is not in the nature of man to work and produce when others are sitting by getting a govt handout! soon the whole society is corrupt and only looking for what each one can get! so far removed from pres kennedy's inspirational words, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country!"