[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Rainger99

Should the ABA records be incorporated into the NBA?


Just a moment...

Even better, anyone remember Frank Viola---Cy Young award winner and world series MVP? When we were 8 years old, I had a .750 batting average against him in little league. Could we incorporate that record. Please.

[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Even better, anyone remember Frank Viola---Cy Young award winner and world series MVP? When we were 8 years old, I had a .750 batting average against him in little league. Could we incorporate that record. Please.

Thought you were a better hitter than that

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC

Thought you were a better hitter than that

Sadly, Frankie went on to have a much better MLB career than I

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Even better, anyone remember Frank Viola---Cy Young award winner and world series MVP? When we were 8 years old, I had a .750 batting average against him in little league. Could we incorporate that record. Please.

Frank lived in Concord, MA for a while and I met him a few times. He mentioned that there were a couple of guys who really had his number and he just couldn't get them out, no matter how hard he tried.

Now I know who he was referring to.

[blueash]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Exactly!

There is something known as the APGA today (Alternate PGA), which consists of minority golfers. They usually have the sponsor of a PGA tournament invite one of their players as an exemption. I don't believe any of them has ever made the cut much less seriously compete to win. That tour is far from "equal". But sooner or later they may produce a superstar, one that might even set some sort of "record" if the revisionists of the future declare that tour to be "major" and merge stats. Personally, I find this assault on one of the last meritocracies deplorable.

And completely unlike the APGA where there are no color barriers against non whites competing in the PGA, the Negro leagues existed for one reason only. Systemic racism. America refused to allow Black athletes to play in MLB. So don't tell me Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth got their records because of a meritocracy. They got them in part because it was a white man's league.

I don't know how well the Negro league players would have competed. I don't know if Ruth would have hit fewer home runs against teams with Black pitchers. But I do know that a team of white players only would fail in MLB now. It's possible Ruth couldn't hit a major league pitcher now much less Satchel Paige.

It amazes me that anyone would use a claim of unfairness in this situation. Moving down a slot on the all time slugging percentage is far less a crime against honoring baseball greatness than was the white bigotry and prejudice that made the Negro league ever exist. That was unfair. That was, to use your word, deplorable.

Do you have a problem with records from American League teams being counted against records of National League teams? They didn't play each other then except a few world series games which don't count in the record books. Are you sure that the leagues had equal talent thus Ruth's homers would have been the same if he played in the National league. I think you are comfortable mixing those separate league records together as all time baseball records.

All this does is accept a third major league into the record books. And you'd be hard pressed to claim that the standard of play in the Negro League was lower than in the American or National League.

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by blueash

And completely unlike the APGA where there are no color barriers against non whites competing in the PGA, the Negro leagues existed for one reason only. Systemic racism. America refused to allow Black athletes to play in MLB. So don't tell me Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth got their records because of a meritocracy. They got them in part because it was a white man's league.

I don't know how well the Negro league players would have competed. I don't know if Ruth would have hit fewer home runs against teams with Black pitchers. But I do know that a team of white players only would fail in MLB now. It's possible Ruth couldn't hit a major league pitcher now much less Satchel Paige.

It amazes me that anyone would use a claim of unfairness in this situation. Moving down a slot on the all time slugging percentage is far less a crime against honoring baseball greatness than was the white bigotry and prejudice that made the Negro league ever exist. That was unfair. That was, to use your word, deplorable.

Do you have a problem with records from American League teams being counted against records of National League teams? They didn't play each other then except a few world series games which don't count in the record books. Are you sure that the leagues had equal talent thus Ruth's homers would have been the same if he played in the National league. I think you are comfortable mixing those separate league records together as all time baseball records.

All this does is accept a third major league into the record books. And you'd be hard pressed to claim that the standard of play in the Negro League was lower than in the American or National League.

Very well said.

[Rainger99]

Hank Aaron played in the Negro Leagues. This ruling will add to his home run totals.


Hank Aaron Negro Leagues stats: Will Hall of Famer pass Barry Bonds as MLB'''s home run king after stats change? | Sporting News

[Rainger99]

It should be noted that there was no Negro League. MLB has recognized seven Negro Leagues that are considered to be of the top quality of play at the time of their existence. They were in existence from 1920 to 1950.

Also, it wasn’t until 1964 that the first Japanese player played in the major leagues. Should their records be recognized as MLB records?

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by blueash

And completely unlike the APGA where there are no color barriers against non whites competing in the PGA, the Negro leagues existed for one reason only. Systemic racism. America refused to allow Black athletes to play in MLB. So don't tell me Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth got their records because of a meritocracy. They got them in part because it was a white man's league.

Re-writing history is a fool's errand or a woke's dream.

The LAW in the United States, was "separate but equal". It wasn't an "opinion". It wasn't individual choice. It wasn't "unfair" by the standards of the times. It was barely in dispute by either side of the fence.

It was simply the law of the land.

Attempting to re-write history, serves only to assuage those who feel guilty about their collective history and does nothing productive.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC

Was the competition in the Negro leagues equal to major leagues at the time?

If the answer is yes makes sense to me.

If not the records will be meaningless

Good question.

[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by blueash

And completely unlike the APGA where there are no color barriers against non whites competing in the PGA, the Negro leagues existed for one reason only. Systemic racism. America refused to allow Black athletes to play in MLB. So don't tell me Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth got their records because of a meritocracy. They got them in part because it was a white man's league.

I don't know how well the Negro league players would have competed. I don't know if Ruth would have hit fewer home runs against teams with Black pitchers. But I do know that a team of white players only would fail in MLB now. It's possible Ruth couldn't hit a major league pitcher now much less Satchel Paige.

It amazes me that anyone would use a claim of unfairness in this situation. Moving down a slot on the all time slugging percentage is far less a crime against honoring baseball greatness than was the white bigotry and prejudice that made the Negro league ever exist. That was unfair. That was, to use your word, deplorable.

Do you have a problem with records from American League teams being counted against records of National League teams? They didn't play each other then except a few world series games which don't count in the record books. Are you sure that the leagues had equal talent thus Ruth's homers would have been the same if he played in the National league. I think you are comfortable mixing those separate league records together as all time baseball records.

All this does is accept a third major league into the record books. And you'd be hard pressed to claim that the standard of play in the Negro League was lower than in the American or National League.

It was certainly wrong not to allow Blacks into the major leagues. Terrible wrong.

However there were so many Black leagues that I would think the quality of play was not equal to that of the majors. If so records will be watered down and that is not right.

Let the best players of the Negro leagues get into the hall of fame and be honored, to me that would be the most fair way to handle this

[Snakster66]

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC

Was the competition in the Negro leagues equal to major leagues at the time?

If the answer is yes makes sense to me.

If not the records will be meaningless

One could reasonably ask if the competition in the Major Leagues was equal to the negro leagues. The ship goes both ways. What is undeniable is all of those leagues had players who could play in the counterpart league. And all those leagues had players who wouldn’t make it in a combined league.

Not sure how people can say this is rewriting history. It’s history that HAPPENED and is now being put in to the books where they belong. As long as you agree that the negro leagues were ‘major’ leagues. Which, again, was determined by MLB in 2020. Debate that if you want. But if they are, then of course the records belong in the books.

One could also say that ALL of the records prior to 1947 are meaningless because the players across all leagues weren’t playing against the best possible competition.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by Snakster66

Not sure how people can say this is rewriting history. It’s history that HAPPENED and is now being put in to the books where they belong. As long as you agree that the negro leagues were ‘major’ leagues. Which, again, was determined by MLB in 2020. Debate that if you want. But if they are, then of course the records belong in the books.

They were not "Major League Baseball", just the same as the World Football League was not the NFL.

"Major League Baseball" is a specific entity, that the Negro League did not belong to. They (Negro leagues) had ZERO involvement with Major League Baseball.

They were never invited to join under the umbrella of Major League Baseball and to now suddenly say they were part of Major League Baseball, is sports-washing of the highest order.

The exact same argument applies to women's sports. They were denied entry to "Men's Sport Teams/Leagues" ... is that not the exact same "discrimination"? It's OK to discriminate based on sex, but not on color?

"Major League Baseball" has absolutely no right whatsoever, to use the names of people who never played the game under their umbrella. To do so, defies common sense, diminishes the accomplishments of those who did play under that umbrella and panders to those trying to whitewash American history.

[Rainger99]

Josh Gibson had 838 hits in 2255 at bats. He played a total of 653 games.

Ty Cobb had 4191 hits in 11429 at bats. He played in 3034 games.

Prior to today, the current standard for career MLB leaders was 5,000 at-bats and 2,000 innings pitched, which roughly equates to 10 full qualifying seasons.


Negro League seasons were shorter than MLB seasons so
for Negro Leagues players, this standard has been set at 1,800 at-bats and 600 innings -- roughly the equivalent of 10 seasons’ worth of 60-game seasons.

[Topspinmo]

Who cares, bunch of over paid little leaguers anyway….