Originally Posted by jswirs

I could not agree more with your assessment. I prefer to live in the good old USA. If I should happen to die from this virus, so be it. I would rather die a free man than live my life in fear or even extreme caution, not knowing what I will have to sacrifice just so that I can continue to live. To quote Julius Cesar, from my high school days, "Cowards die many times before their death, the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".

If you happen to die from this virus that would be very sad.

You or anyone else do not have a right to be out in public if infected and you most certainly do not have the right to infect me. That could possibly be considered a crime. At the very least, please wear a mask when you need to go shopping so you won't pass the virus to others once you get it.

I hope you stay safe and healthy.

[sdeikenberry]

While it's true my business stops at the end of my nose, it's also true that your business shouldn't impact mine. For example, cigarette smoking. Smokers infringe on my health, and that's the reason this country has smoking laws. Seems like a similar analogy to the question posed by the author of this thread.

[Heyitsrick]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

What good is life without (fill in the blank)?

Pretty good. With life you have options...………………….I VOTE FOR LIFE. Yes, I have thought about it again...yes I do.

Oh, I can think of a multitude of scenarios where "life" in and of itself would not be considered tenable for most.

I'm going to assume that most everyone here worked for a living, and either had some kind of pension or other investments that afforded them the ability to move here after their working life.

Many - as in millions - of people are now unemployed and there's no guarantee that their erstwhile employers will even return, regardless of an SBA loan. The states are going to be broke and looking for the feds to bail them out. You can already hear governors screaming about that. Of course, the feds bailing out the states just means that federal income tax rates have to go up. If the federal government doesn't bail out the states, the states have to come to you to make up the shortfalls, or cut a lot of programs and services - laying people off in the process. And printing more money (like the Federal Reserve does) is only devaluing the money already in circulation. Your dollars are worth less.

There needs to be a balance between health concerns and economic vitality, even if that involves risk.

[stadry]

where is the responsibility & justice of universal health care ? we can agree on 1 thing - no, you don’t know.

universal health care ( single payer ) will reduce the level of care we now enjoy, raise prices, & drive medical pro's out of the practice. we will all be equally miserable except for those who can afford black market med care. just as obamacare finally made practicing medicine just not worth it anymore, i lost my cardiologist, gp, urologist, & oncologist.

its obvious to me you never had to sign checks but only endorse them

another thing - where is all this $$ coming from ? states like ny, il, ca, ma, ct, nj, pa - they're not the only 1's who are broke,,, so's the fed,,, why do think the usa sells bonds ? to BORROW MONEY, folks,,, which our grandchildren can pay back w/more worthless $$$
i think we are a very selfish generation

[Heyitsrick]

Originally Posted by stadry

where is the responsibility & justice of universal health care ? we can agree on 1 thing - no, you don’t know.

universal health care ( single payer ) will reduce the level of care we now enjoy, raise prices, & drive medical pro's out of the practice. we will all be equally miserable except for those who can afford black market med care. just as obamacare finally made practicing medicine just not worth it anymore, i lost my cardiologist, gp, urologist, & oncologist.

its obvious to me you never had to sign checks but only endorse them

Who's going to tell the medical professionals that they can't make the money they do now? Who's going to tell the pharmaceutical companies that they can't make profits on the successful drugs they make?

I don't see much benefit of the shutdown. I wear an N95 mask and rubber gloves when I go out to run errands. I went to Home depot 2 weeks ago in the villages and it was business as usual. People shopping without mask or gloves.

I just went to the super Walmart at the north end of the villages and it was packed. About half of the customers had masks on and fewer had gloves. I saw a newborn baby with her young parents without masks.

My point is, people are still going out in public ignoring social distancing and without wearing personal protective equipment and because fewer businesses are open they're packing into the ones that are open.

I suppose you could open up the economy and let the consumer decide how much they'll risk getting infected.

It looks to me that some people don't care or see a risk and some do. It's up to you to protect yourself.

As for myself, I see this virus as a new era in humanity. I'm surprised terrorists haven't seen this in the past as a way to attack us. It's very easy to weaponize this virus. The virus is easy to come by compared to bomb making materials and you can't detect it on people. This will change everything.

I'm betting this winter we'll see the virus come back with a vengeance and you can't shutdown the world for several months and not run out of food etc.

Gilead is testing a treatment that may be available soon and a vaccine should be available next year.

Protect yourself long enough to get to lower death rates is a good goal and let the risk takers choose their plan.

[Love2Swim]

Originally Posted by jswirs

I could not agree more with your assessment. I prefer to live in the good old USA. If I should happen to die from this virus, so be it. I would rather die a free man than live my life in fear or even extreme caution, not knowing what I will have to sacrifice just so that I can continue to live. To quote Julius Cesar, from my high school days, "Cowards die many times before their death, the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".

People have the right to die any way they like, but they don't have the right or freedom to endanger others with their lifestyle. My friend lives in NYC and she wrote this about people complaining about their "freedom": Silly stupid people. Get them out of the boonies and take them to NYC and give them a guided street tour of all the area hospitals with the refrigerated tractor trailers filled with dead bodies, followed by a boat ride to Hart Island where they can watch the backhoes dig long wide trenches and the stacking of wooden caskets for the mass burials.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by jswirs

I could not agree more with your assessment. I prefer to live in the good old USA. If I should happen to die from this virus, so be it. I would rather die a free man than live my life in fear or even extreme caution, not knowing what I will have to sacrifice just so that I can continue to live. To quote Julius Cesar, from my high school days, "Cowards die many times before their death, the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".

My opinion is that your opinion is extreme and not at all realistic. I don't think I believe in predestination. I am astonished by this reaction which seems to be gaining more and more momentum and makes me hate politics even more, although I have always thought of myself as very patriotic. I am just sad. Really sad. What it looks like to me is that older people are disposable. I do hope that this movement would be different if staying home saved beautiful young lives. I do so hope that would be true.

[hollywoodz]

Originally Posted by B767drvr

A discussion on morals: Is it your neighbor's responsibility to keep you safe/healthy?

If so, how far are we willing to infringe on others' rights/freedoms to keep others safe?

Is it okay to destroy people's businesses by forcing their extended closure to "protect" others' health?

Is it okay to forcefully remove people from public transportation for not wearing masks?

In Laredo, Texas... it's a $1,000 fine if you go out in public without a mask. The mask requirement can be a cloth draping... i.e., it is not for the wearer's safety, it is for others' safety. Do you agree with this? If so, why? If not, why not?

Have we considered the effects of our actions on our health care workers? Did they sign up for a worldwide global deadly pandemic threatening not only their job, but their life? How about going to work with little to no PPE and "hoping" they stay safe? Did they sign up for this? How might your actions impact their life? Is it okay to make choices and then expect others to "fix" (health care workers) them?

I take issue with the use of your word "infringe", though your discussion of the topic is a worthy one. Before responding directly, I need to raise what one of Trump's economic advisors, Stephen Moore, said the other day about equating those on the right being put upon-perhaps in a way like the thrust of your discussion topic- just like Rosa Parks did in her day. That comparison was lunacy, since Ms. Parks was advancing racial equality which, if it did not come about, would not infect and kill others of whatever description. If she had the virus and did not take precautions, then the comparison would be the same to those gun-toting individuals we saw at state capitals in Michigan, Virginia and Minnesota last week. But to respond to your inquiry, we are ALL interdependent upon one another as Americans, regardless of political stripe or viewpoint, color or creed. When we are battling a deadly silent and invisible enemy, we must all draw together to fight it so that we all survive, sans those thousands that have incredulously perished through no fault of their own. If I can draw upon an apt comparison: what this nation had to do to fight Hitler in WWII. Didn't we have to make sacrifices at home to help fight the war and supply our soldiers with what they needed, like ammo, equipment, clothing, and artillery? Are fines required if a government tells us to wear masks and we don't; if a government tells us not to have more than 10 congregate together but do? Yes, since our freedoms, here, are dependent upon us taking heed of what to do to stop this invisible killer; if not, then having a government edict means nothing and those that want to violate them are not only being foolish to themselves, but also seeding the continued spread of the virus among those that are lawfully abiding citizens. To put it more plainly, if we run a red light or stop sign, why should we have to be a fine for a traffic violation?

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Love2Swim

People have the right to die any way they like, but they don't have the right or freedom to endanger others with their lifestyle. My friend lives in NYC and she wrote this about people complaining about their "freedom": Silly stupid people. Get them out of the boonies and take them to NYC and give them a guided street tour of all the area hospitals with the refrigerated tractor trailers filled with dead bodies, followed by a boat ride to Hart Island where they can watch the backhoes dig long wide trenches and the stacking of wooden caskets for the mass burials.

My post took this wonderful post out of view. I do so agree.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by hollywoodz

I take issue with the use of your word "infringe", though your discussion of the topic is a worthy one. Before responding directly, I need to raise what one of Trump's economic advisors, Stephen Moore, said the other day about equating those on the right being put upon-perhaps in a way like the thrust of your discussion topic- just like Rosa Parks did in her day. That comparison was lunacy, since Ms. Parks was advancing racial equality which, if it did not come about, would not infect and kill others of whatever description. If she had the virus and did not take precautions, then the comparison would be the same to those gun-toting individuals we saw at state capitals in Michigan, Virginia and Minnesota last week. But to respond to your inquiry, we are ALL interdependent upon one another as Americans, regardless of political stripe or viewpoint, color or creed. When we are battling a deadly silent and invisible enemy, we must all draw together to fight it so that we all survive, sans those thousands that have incredulously perished through no fault of their own. If I can draw upon an apt comparison: what this nation had to do to fight Hitler in WWII. Didn't we have to make sacrifices at home to help fight the war and supply our soldiers with what they needed, like ammo, equipment, clothing, and artillery? Are fines required if a government tells us to wear masks and we don't; if a government tells us not to have more than 10 congregate together but do? Yes, since our freedoms, here, are dependent upon us taking heed of what to do to stop this invisible killer; if not, then having a government edict means nothing and those that want to violate them are not only being foolish to themselves, but also seeding the continued spread of the virus among those that are lawfully abiding citizens. To put it more plainly, if we run a red light or stop sign, why should we have to be a fine for a traffic violation?

Another articulate and thoughtful post that I so agree with.

[Nevinmann]

Hunter Thompson is the author of the quip you use as a signature addendum. It would be nice to give him credit.

[Plants]

And spread it to everyone else? Thanks

[rlcooper70]

Your questions are direct and complicated. You are asking "what is a moral decision?" and how does one make it? The 16th through 18th century philosophers discussed just this .. is it by looking at "greatest good for the greatest number" or is it "if everyone acted in this manner would society be better or worse" or is it Hobbes' contention that the leader (sovereign) has the right to dictate over the affairs of all the citizens?

There are many ways to look at this ... and although your questions are valid .... are they actually the right questions?

[rlcooper70]

I think that post was meant to be offensive .... it reflects on the writer and only the writer.