[Rocksnap]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

Effects of Concealed-Carry Laws on Violent Crime | RAND

Seems to be inconclusive on those statistics.

Crime down in relaxed gun law states, crime UP in gun restrictive states. The more you know.
Gun Laws vs. Crime Rates in 2024: A Comprehensive Analysis - Legal Reader

[Rocksnap]

Originally Posted by kingofbeer

Win win for who? Can someone carry an unconcealed gun into McDonalds and order a Big Mac? If somone carries an unconcealed gun, how do you know they are not there to rob the establishment? Welcome to Floriduh!

When the firearm changes from being holstered, to being in your hand. Would be my guess.

[MrFlorida]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

There have been incidents in which a gun carrier goes off the deep end. I am not talking about school and other type of culprits but just someone who snaps. Killing of Chad Oulson - Wikipedia

True, but there are more armed criminals out there that want to do you harm than law abiding citizens going off the deep end...

[Cdj1040]

This is political and not appropriate to post here. Many here are NOT in favor of guns and open carry. This is not the wild West!

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by MrFlorida

True, but there are more armed criminals out there that want to do you harm than law abiding citizens going off the deep end...

That seems pretty scary. Are there armed criminals in the room with you now?

I've been living in The Villages for 7 years, and haven't ever met anyone who has tried to do me harm, with or without a firearm.

I am confident, without any actual data to provide, that most people treated for mental disorders (aka "going off the deep end") are not armed criminals. So that would make them "law abiding citizens" who do not go off the deep end. And that would also mean that the armed criminals who want to do me harm, are in the minority even among people with mental disorders.

MOST people - with or without mental disorders - are not armed criminals who want to do me harm. Seven years living in Boston, over 30 years living in Connecticut, seven years currently living in The Villages, one year living elsewhere in Florida in my 20's...and the only attacks I've ever been victim of was a girl punching me once on the bus in elementary school because she heard I didn't like her, and then in high school when another girl pushed me up against the gym locker room wall because she heard I liked her boyfriend (who didn't know I even existed).

Addendum: after the girl on the bus got suspended, she approached me and thanked me for 3 days off from school and that any time I wanted someone beat up, to let her know, she owed me one. We were on friendly terms with each other from then on.

[maggie1]

Originally Posted by Pugchief

This is a completely ridiculous argument. Depends what you mean by mass shooting. No one is going to try to take down the guy in Las Vegas a few years ago shooting from a high perch, but if you're in a small restaurant and some whack job starts shooting, you would be much more likely to intervene.

Tell that to the parents of all those little kids killed in Uvalde, TX. DPS officers, Sheriff's deputies, and other police officials all listened to those little tykes being slaughtered, and no one did a darn thing until it was too late. Nineteen kids and two adults killed - zero police officers killed or injured, and that's a good thing, but how many of those guys still live with the fact that had they done something, anything, maybe they could have ended the carnage earlier?

Your posture doesn't hold water. They were all armed and yet did nothing. How do you think the average Joe citizen would have done any better in a situation like this? How about the "whack job" in the restaurant, as you've described, do you think an average Joe citizen would have taken him out? It's doubtful. You can't get into the two-hand, off-hand position when you're shaking like a leaf on a tree.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by maggie1

Tell that to the parents of all those little kids killed in Uvalde, TX. DPS officers, Sheriff's deputies, and other police officials all listened to those little tykes being slaughtered, and no one did a darn thing until it was too late. Nineteen kids and two adults killed - zero police officers killed or injured, and that's a good thing, but how many of those guys still live with the fact that had they done something, anything, maybe they could have ended the carnage earlier?

Your posture doesn't hold water. They were all armed and yet did nothing. How do you think the average Joe citizen would have done any better in a situation like this? How about the "whack job" in the restaurant, as you've described, do you think an average Joe citizen would have taken him out? It's doubtful. You can't get into the two-hand, off-hand position when you're shaking like a leaf on a tree.

Uvalde seems like an aberration as far as police responding to an active shooter. Most of the time the police confront the shooter if they can do so without making the situation more dangerous for civilians.

[bmcgowan13]

Originally Posted by Mrprez

Basic firearms training for concealed carry.

I attended the Concealed Carry Class put on by my local Florida PD in 2012.

It was laughable. They reviewed (I'm sorry-read aloud) the Florida Deadly Force laws (FSS 776.012) to us in a PD briefing room. Then you went into the men's Locker Room and you fired one .22 cal bullet into a sand-filled barrel as a demonstration of your "proficiency with a firearm." The instructor, placed his hands over yours as he handed you the weapon--and removed it so you could pull the trigger and then replaced his hand immediately after you fired it to remove the weapon.

It was FAR from any conceivable training in the use of a deadly weapon--a weapon that has no other purpose but to kill a person. But I cleared the training and picked up my Concealed Carry Permit in downtown Orlando a few weeks later. The State of FLorida considered me "qualified" after firing...one round...into a sand filled bucket.

I had 18 years of LEO before I moved to Orlando....

Please...it was a joke and the punchline enabled me to carry a concealed weapon...

[bmcgowan13]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

Uvalde seems like an aberration as far as police responding to an active shooter. Most of the time the police confront the shooter if they can do so without making the situation more dangerous for civilians.

Not so sure. Since Columbine I am aware of only one other time that a School Resource Office (SRO) stopped an active assailant. According to the FBI most school active shooters end in suicide and the shooting is over within 5 minutes--before LEO arrives.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...q6HsiQhEQ6H_mI

Dixon, Illinois (2018): An SRO chased and exchanged gunfire with a former student who was armed with a rifle at a high school graduation rehearsal. The officer shot and wounded the suspect, ending the attack with no one else injured.

Maybe I'm wrong . Do you have other cases..

I wish it were different...

[Mrprez]

Originally Posted by bmcgowan13

I attended the Concealed Carry Class put on by my local Florida PD in 2012.

It was laughable. They reviewed (I'm sorry-read aloud) the Florida Deadly Force laws (FSS 776.012) to us in a PD briefing room. Then you went into the men's Locker Room and you fired one .22 cal bullet into a sand-filled barrel as a demonstration of your "proficiency with a firearm." The instructor, placed his hands over yours as he handed you the weapon--and removed it so you could pull the trigger and then replaced his hand immediately after you fired it to remove the weapon.

It was FAR from any conceivable training in the use of a deadly weapon--a weapon that has no other purpose but to kill a person. But I cleared the training and picked up my Concealed Carry Permit in downtown Orlando a few weeks later. The State of FLorida considered me "qualified" after firing...one round...into a sand filled bucket.

I had 18 years of LEO before I moved to Orlando....

Please...it was a joke and the punchline enabled me to carry a concealed weapon...

Mine was not like that at all. 4 hours of classroom training, a written test and I think we fired 10 rounds.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by bmcgowan13

Not so sure. Since Columbine I am aware of only one other time that a School Resource Office (SRO) stopped an active assailant. According to the FBI most school active shooters end in suicide and the shooting is over within 5 minutes--before LEO arrives.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...q6HsiQhEQ6H_mI

Dixon, Illinois (2018): An SRO chased and exchanged gunfire with a former student who was armed with a rifle at a high school graduation rehearsal. The officer shot and wounded the suspect, ending the attack with no one else injured.

Maybe I'm wrong . Do you have other cases..

I wish it were different...

I was talking about police response to an active shooter. The Uvalde response was kind of non-existent for an hour or so.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by maggie1

Tell that to the parents of all those little kids killed in Uvalde, TX. DPS officers, Sheriff's deputies, and other police officials all listened to those little tykes being slaughtered, and no one did a darn thing until it was too late. Nineteen kids and two adults killed - zero police officers killed or injured, and that's a good thing, but how many of those guys still live with the fact that had they done something, anything, maybe they could have ended the carnage earlier?

Your posture doesn't hold water. They were all armed and yet did nothing. How do you think the average Joe citizen would have done any better in a situation like this? How about the "whack job" in the restaurant, as you've described, do you think an average Joe citizen would have taken him out? It's doubtful. You can't get into the two-hand, off-hand position when you're shaking like a leaf on a tree.

They were following orders not to engage. Came out after the aftermath and sheriff or who was in charge got fired.

[VAtoFLA]

They were chicken sh1t so they waited in the hallway. Scared because they were outgunned. They all had weapons, but not like the shooters weapon.

Escalation is the thing we don't think of. We think Bad guy has a gun, if I show up with a gun, bad guy won't act bad. Problem is bad guy's response isn't to not act, it's to come with a more powerful weapon.

I'm not coming out against any of it. Concealed, open, I'm fine with it and respect the laws of the nation and state. I just want to make sure as we discuss that we consider escalation at each step where our answer is to meet force with force.

[gorillarick]

After moving to Florida 15 years ago, I felt much safer in movie theatres thinking maybe 25% of the patrons were concealed carry.

Previously I was in a state where only the rich and well-connected could get a carry license.
Do you think morons with a death wish follow the law when they go to movie theatres, or anywhere else?
Gun free zones (like schools), invites the morons.

[ElDiabloJoe]

Originally Posted by gorillarick

After moving to Florida 15 years ago, I felt much safer in movie theatres thinking maybe 25% of the patrons were concealed carry.

Previously I was in a state where only the rich and well-connected could get a carry license.
Do you think morons with a death wish follow the law when they go to movie theatres, or anywhere else?
Gun free zones (like schools), invites the morons.

^ Concur.