[serenityseeker]

Originally Posted by dillywho

My mother was an RN and one of the best so I am not a stranger to the world of medicine. For those who complain about long wait times, medicine is not an in and out at your convenience profession. That same one complaining aboutthe long wait might be heard to complain that the doctor is always in a rush, doesn't take time to listen, etc. You can't have it both ways. If I am the patient taking more of the doctor's anticipated time in an office visit or have an emergency that gets him behind in his schedule, then you bet your sweet bippy that is exactly the doctor I want for my care. Serenity, you're my kind of professional and I thank you for your service, even if I don't know you personally. Maybe when we can get back to the point where doctors can be doctors and not the insurance companies, more like you will return. Medicine needs to be about the patient, not the bottom line.

Insightful comments dilly, thanx for the input. I realize we have oafs in the profession just like any other, but somehow there seems to be a view that physicians are mostly greedy, arrogant, and inconsiderate. The system is so completely fractured at this point that the art of medicine is rapidly being lost. Here's to letting doctors be doctors and making medicine about the patient.

[Fourpar]

Originally Posted by serenityseeker

You may have expertise in some areas but you are way out of your element in this. Your 99.9% statistic is unfounded and and at the very minimum inaccurate. Also, nowhere in my post did I suggest that anyone would be "labeled" as "having emotional problems" just because they took issue with how they were treated. That is an unfair and twisted representation of what I posted. Often times when emotions run high, particualry in health care situations, physicians bear the brunt of the anger, knowing it is a normal reaction even on those occasions when the issues are beyond their control. This is part of the profession we are blessed to be in and we strive to work within it with compassion and understanding.
Most physicians are quite aware that they are "mere mortals" as they deal with mortality on an everyday basis, along with some of the tradgedy associated with it. You should take the time to spend a 36 hour or so day with a physician sometime to getter a better appreciation of what one goes through for and with their patients. Attitudes like this amounting to blanket condemnation have become part of a system that is sucking the life out of dedicated physicians everywhere. This is not a rant, just an honest recognition of the situation, backed up by thousands of physicians.
No good and caring physician fears constructive criticism or accountability, they are among the tools we use as we strive to maintain and improve every single day. As I said above, there are several ways to with deal problems before handling it in a way that leaves no recourse for the physician, who is bound by confidentiality laws. I am not talking about about a freedom of speech issue, simply talking about mutual respect and a resonable way of handling things instead of using an Amazon or eBay type of feedback that may not be fit many of the parties and situations ultimately involved.
You recently felt that issues posted on this board were unfair and hurtful to you, both personally and potentially financially. This is likely the same type of situation that many physicians might find themselves in, but with no way to way to rectify it. I just ask that you give thought to it in the same light.
"I "pointed out" several other things in the post also, I'm disappointed they didn't warrant some consideration also.

[chelsea24]

Originally Posted by serenityseeker

Insightful comments dilly, thanx for the input. I realize we have oafs in the profession just like any other, but somehow there seems to be a view that physicians are mostly greedy, arrogant, and inconsiderate. The system is so completely fractured at this point that the art of medicine is rapidly being lost. Here's to letting doctors be doctors and making medicine about the patient.

Serenity, I didn't mean it to be a blanket statement of all doctors, and if it came across that way I'm sorry. My husband and I have a fabulous doctor right now that I adore. But there are those out there that need to be "outed" and my indignation was not really pointed at the profession in general, it was pointed at this waiver. It just feels wrong to me on so many levels. Granted there are wacko patients that will see ANY doctor as bad. I agree there are two sides to every coin. My husband is a veterinarian and he went to "human" med school also. He is one of the finest physicians I know. But I went through hell with doctors treating my father. Finally found a great one, but went through many trying to do so. My husband stepped in twice and saved my father's life! Once, they called me from the hospital and said to come and say good-bye to my dad, that he would be gone in 24 hours from kidney failure. I couldn't believe it! He was not in the hospital for kidneys at all. Granted he was in his late 70's but still! So we rushed over and my husband demanded an ultrasound (I think) and they found that the cather was in backwards and the urine was flooding INTO his kidneys, virtually killing him! (I hope I'm explaining this correctly, as I am not a physician.) It was corrected and he was fine.

Consequently, I would never, NEVER leave my father, daughter, or even my husband alone in a hospital. I have many experiences I could share, but it would be way too long.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we all draw from our own experiences and I've had many bad ones. On the other hand, many good ones! Such a mixed bag, that I, personally would not sign a waiver.

I think the world of you too Serenity and certainly did not mean to belittle the valiant job that is done everyday by the really good doctors and nurses of the world.

[serenityseeker]

Originally Posted by chelsea24

Serenity, I didn't mean it to be a blanket statement of all doctors, and if it came across that way I'm sorry. My husband and I have a fabulous doctor right now that I adore. But there are those out there that need to be "outed" and my indignation was not really pointed at the profession in general, it was pointed at this waiver. It just feels wrong to me on so many levels. Granted there are wacko patients that will see ANY doctor as bad. I agree there are two sides to every coin. My husband is a veterinarian and he went to "human" med school also. He is one of the finest physicians I know. But I went through hell with doctors treating my father. Finally found a great one, but went through many trying to do so. My husband stepped in twice and saved my father's life! Once, they called me from the hospital and said to come and say good-bye to my dad, that he would be gone in 24 hours from kidney failure. I couldn't believe it! He was not in the hospital for kidneys at all. Granted he was in his late 70's but still! So we rushed over and my husband demanded an ultrasound (I think) and they found that the cather was in backwards and the urine was flooding INTO his kidneys, virtually killing him! (I hope I'm explaining this correctly, as I am not a physician.) It was corrected and he was fine.

Consequently, I would never, NEVER leave my father, daughter, or even my husband alone in a hospital. I have many experiences I could share, but it would be way too long.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we all draw from our own experiences and I've had many bad ones. On the other hand, many good ones! Such a mixed bag, that I, personally would not sign a waiver.

I think the world of you too Serenity and certainly did not mean to belittle the valiant job that is done everyday by the really good doctors and nurses of the world.

It's all good hot-shot. I just see the inherent danger in the eBay type review system that affords no recourse for the physician. Cool thing is we can agree to disagree on some things

[musicman]

Some very good input in this thread. Obviously, a hot topic. Some of my opinions...

Most doctors became doctors because they have a strong desire to help people. My PCP tells me about how he saw his Dad (general practitioner) go out of his way to treat people who were ill. His father's caring and compassion inspired him to become a doctor. His father was a good man and a good doctor. He didn't make millions, but he DID make a difference.

It is sad that most doctors today are struggling (yes, struggling) to make a living. Look up some of the average salaries that PCPs, family doctors, GYNs, and internal medicine docs make. These are the doctors we see for the routine, day-to-day stuff. The ones we depend on for most of our care. The national average...around $150,000. In Florida, it's lower. It's shocking, considering the time spent in undergrad, grad and residency. Their school wasn't free. I want MY doctor worrying about my HEALTH, not about paying the electric bill. In July, Congress (barely) stopped a 10% reduction across the board on Medicare reimbursement. Most of us would be outraged if our employer told us that we had to take a 10% salary cut, yet that is what would happen to most doctors in our area. They won't be able to afford to take care of us if that happens. Everything else goes UP...

An example: you visit you doctor and spend 15 minutes with him/her (about an average appointment time). Medicare pays that doctor $58.60. How do I know? It's on my mother's EOB from Medicare. However, for that 15 minute appointment of face-to-face with the doctor, you get a lot of behind the scenes work. There's the receptionist that scheduled and confirmed, checked you in, collected your copay, etc. There's the Medical Assistant that weighed you, took your vitals, drew your blood, set up the room, cleaned the room, printed your lab reports, updated your medications, called you with the results and got you the consultation with the specialist for the problem that was found. And, there's the MA that called you to remind you to please go do the test that you asked the doctor to order for you but never took time to get (I'm guilty of that). These folks don't work for free. The doctor also has to review your tests and coordinate how those tests need to be best handled. Whew, that's alot, and I'm probably missing A LOT more! And still, it's remarkable how often I hear people around town complain about the $10 or $20 copay they had to pay in one breath and then talk about their new $400 driver they just bought while ordering their $4.00 latte in the next. Priorities, folks!

Insurance companies continue to reduce reimbursement while increasing what they require doctors to do, many of which they don't get paid for. An example: my PCP ordered an CT for me because of a problem. My insurer (UHC) requires that the PCP notify them that I am having this test. It is not an authorization, just a notification. My PCP is not even the doctor that is performing the test or even being paid for it's completion. The facility I went to got the payment, but my PCP's staff did the leg work. I sat in the waiting room while they did it. It took 15 minutes.

And, most of all, part of a doctors job is to tell us what horrible shape were in and how we should stop drinking, stop smoking and start eating right. It's a tough job. Sometimes I get angry when being told that I need to lose 20 pounds. But, that's what I pay my doctor to do.

As a patient, I work hard to help my doctor help me.

When I schedule my appointment, I make sure I tell them EXACTLY why I'm coming in so I get the appropriate amount of time scheduled. I NEVER say everything is fine and then show up with a laundry list of problems. It's not fair to my doctor or the patients after me.

I never complain when my doc is running behind. I know he's not back there sipping tea with his feet up on the desk. He's taking care of other patients. I know when it's my turn, he'll do the same for me. I take a book and wait patiently for my time.

I NEVER cancel or miss an appointment without proper notice or a good reason. By the way, a good reason is NOT that I got a better tee time.

If my doctor asks me to fill out and update paperwork, I do without complaint. Yea, he saw me last year, yea I'm a memorable guy, but not THAT memorable. Things change and I want him, no DEMAND that he be up-to-date on all my medications and problems. I know he can't treat me effectively if I don't give full disclosure and I certainly can't blame him if he misses something because I didn't tell him everything. People die from drug interactions because they don't tell every doctor every medication they take. That won't be ME. I try to remember that no matter how much I want to be treated like the only patient, I am not. There are probably others who are in much worse shape than me.

When I need a refill, I notify my doctor a week in advance. If I forget and call after I run out, I don't throw a fit if I can't get it in the next five minutes. There may be someone else who needs more attention than me for a more serious problem than my running out of my cholesterol medicine. I want my doctor to take care of the person that really NEEDS immediate attention first, so he'll do the same for me.

I NEVER ask for a "curbside consult" when I run into my doctor around town. He needs some "ME" time.

So, my thought about the form...I don't like it. But, I understand. Seems that every other commercial is about suing your doctor. People don't like being told they drink too much (or "too much" anything) so they are quick to take offense at the simplest things.

Negligent, nasty doctors should be held accountable. But, most doctors are good PEOPLE, just like most of us. Most are trying to provide us with the care that is best for us, even if we disagree. They have good and bad days, they get overworked, short of temper, extremely stressed...but they are good people. Take a deep breath, have an ice cream cone (sugar-free of course) and things will probably not be as bad as you thought.

[serenityseeker]

Originally Posted by musicman

Some very good input in this thread. Obviously, a hot topic. Some of my opinions...

Most doctors became doctors because they have a strong desire to help people. My PCP tells me about how he saw his Dad (general practitioner) go out of his way to treat people who were ill. His father's caring and compassion inspired him to become a doctor. His father was a good man and a good doctor. He didn't make millions, but he DID make a difference.

It is sad that most doctors today are struggling (yes, struggling) to make a living. Look up some of the average salaries that PCPs, family doctors, GYNs, and internal medicine docs make. These are the doctors we see for the routine, day-to-day stuff. The ones we depend on for most of our care. The national average...around $150,000. In Florida, it's lower. It's shocking, considering the time spent in undergrad, grad and residency. Their school wasn't free. I want MY doctor worrying about my HEALTH, not about paying the electric bill. In July, Congress (barely) stopped a 10% reduction across the board on Medicare reimbursement. Most of us would be outraged if our employer told us that we had to take a 10% salary cut, yet that is what would happen to most doctors in our area. They won't be able to afford to take care of us if that happens. Everything else goes UP...

An example: you visit you doctor and spend 15 minutes with him/her (about an average appointment time). Medicare pays that doctor $58.60. How do I know? It's on my mother's EOB from Medicare. However, for that 15 minute appointment of face-to-face with the doctor, you get a lot of behind the scenes work. There's the receptionist that scheduled and confirmed, checked you in, collected your copay, etc. There's the Medical Assistant that weighed you, took your vitals, drew your blood, set up the room, cleaned the room, printed your lab reports, updated your medications, called you with the results and got you the consultation with the specialist for the problem that was found. And, there's the MA that called you to remind you to please go do the test that you asked the doctor to order for you but never took time to get (I'm guilty of that). These folks don't work for free. The doctor also has to review your tests and coordinate how those tests need to be best handled. Whew, that's alot, and I'm probably missing A LOT more! And still, it's remarkable how often I hear people around town complain about the $10 or $20 copay they had to pay in one breath and then talk about their new $400 driver they just bought while ordering their $4.00 latte in the next. Priorities, folks!

Insurance companies continue to reduce reimbursement while increasing what they require doctors to do, many of which they don't get paid for. An example: my PCP ordered an CT for me because of a problem. My insurer (UHC) requires that the PCP notify them that I am having this test. It is not an authorization, just a notification. My PCP is not even the doctor that is performing the test or even being paid for it's completion. The facility I went to got the payment, but my PCP's staff did the leg work. I sat in the waiting room while they did it. It took 15 minutes.

And, most of all, part of a doctors job is to tell us what horrible shape were in and how we should stop drinking, stop smoking and start eating right. It's a tough job. Sometimes I get angry when being told that I need to lose 20 pounds. But, that's what I pay my doctor to do.

As a patient, I work hard to help my doctor help me.

When I schedule my appointment, I make sure I tell them EXACTLY why I'm coming in so I get the appropriate amount of time scheduled. I NEVER say everything is fine and then show up with a laundry list of problems. It's not fair to my doctor or the patients after me.

I never complain when my doc is running behind. I know he's not back there sipping tea with his feet up on the desk. He's taking care of other patients. I know when it's my turn, he'll do the same for me. I take a book and wait patiently for my time.

I NEVER cancel or miss an appointment without proper notice or a good reason. By the way, a good reason is NOT that I got a better tee time.

If my doctor asks me to fill out and update paperwork, I do without complaint. Yea, he saw me last year, yea I'm a memorable guy, but not THAT memorable. Things change and I want him, no DEMAND that he be up-to-date on all my medications and problems. I know he can't treat me effectively if I don't give full disclosure and I certainly can't blame him if he misses something because I didn't tell him everything. People die from drug interactions because they don't tell every doctor every medication they take. That won't be ME. I try to remember that no matter how much I want to be treated like the only patient, I am not. There are probably others who are in much worse shape than me.

When I need a refill, I notify my doctor a week in advance. If I forget and call after I run out, I don't throw a fit if I can't get it in the next five minutes. There may be someone else who needs more attention than me for a more serious problem than my running out of my cholesterol medicine. I want my doctor to take care of the person that really NEEDS immediate attention first, so he'll do the same for me.

I NEVER ask for a "curbside consult" when I run into my doctor around town. He needs some "ME" time.

So, my thought about the form...I don't like it. But, I understand. Seems that every other commercial is about suing your doctor. People don't like being told they drink too much (or "too much" anything) so they are quick to take offense at the simplest things.

Negligent, nasty doctors should be held accountable. But, most doctors are good PEOPLE, just like most of us. Most are trying to provide us with the care that is best for us, even if we disagree. They have good and bad days, they get overworked, short of temper, extremely stressed...but they are good people. Take a deep breath, have an ice cream cone (sugar-free of course) and things will probably not be as bad as you thought.

Wow. If u r not in the medical field I know some doctors that might pay you just to be a model patient.
It really is the little things you listed that add up over the tousands of times a year. I am sure your PCP appreciates you, and I appreciate your input on this subject.

[musicman]

Originally Posted by serenityseeker

Chels I think the world of you from what I have come to know from these boards but I really am kind of bothered by all of the negative blanket statements. We don't all( or even most) for that matter spend our time on the golf course (kind of hard to when working 60-70 hr weeks), nor do most of us "cover" for one another. Not angry but I do feel the need to stick up for my colleagues that are so far removed from the negative characterizations. Physicians are not the enemy. By and large they are hard working people that sacrifice their own emotional and physical health, even their relationships to a degree for doing what they consider to be a privledge.
I truly wish people could spend every minute of a week or so behind the scenes, you would be shocked and overwhelmed, as we aften are.

My aunt was recently diagnosed with a severely blocked carotid artery when visiting her OB-GYN. The blockage was so severe that the doctor called an ambulance and had my aunt taken to the hospital for Emergency surgery. When she next saw her OB-GYN, she asked the doctor why her PCP hadn't found the problem but she, an OB-GYN had. My guess, like some of the "bad" doctors out there, the PCP never listened to my aunt's heart, arteries, etc. My aunt confirmed this. So, what should the doctor say? "Your PCP is an idiot and shouldn't practice medicine." (possible slander). Should she stick up for (or cover for) the doctor's error? My aunt was pleased that the doctor tried to take the high road. She told my aunt that she couldn't answer for the other doctor, but encouraged my aunt to ask. She also empasized that the most important thing is that she got treated before anything really bad happened. Did the OB-GYN cover for the other doctor? No way, but she also didn't negate my aunt's concern or pass judgment on the other doctor. She's letting my aunt do that.

[musicman]

Originally Posted by serenityseeker

Wow. If u r not in the medical field I know some doctors that might pay you just to be a model patient.
It really is the little things you listed that add up over the tousands of times a year. I am sure your PCP appreciates you, and I appreciate your input on this subject.

I try to be a model patient, customer, husband, friend, (stranger?).

I believe that most of the problems in the world come back to the Golden Rule or "All I ever needed to know, I learned in Kindergarten". --- Robert Fulghum http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/9...dergarten.html or my Grandpa. He said things like:

1) There's always someone worse off than you are.
2) There's always someone bigger than you that can take you down.
3) You are not the only person that lives in this house.
4) Biggest has the right of way (usually when a semi was bearing down on us).
5) Be nice to your Mom.
6) Common sense isn't common.
7) You will be better remembered for being nice than being right.
8) You can have a cookie, but if you take the LAST cookie, you'll answer to me.
9) The world always looks better after a nap (or an ice cream or walk on the beach).
10) You always know what's the right thing to do, even if you try to ignore it.
11) Doing right isn't always easy and sometimes it's really hard.
12) Just because your Mom says she's a modern woman doesn't mean you should stop holding the door for her.

Well, he had lots of 'em, but you get the idea.

[Sidney Lanier]

Originally Posted by serenityseeker

The unfair and dangerous part of this is that anyone is able to write anything inflamatory about any physician as their "opinion". As in all other parts of life there are unreasonable people that be come disgruntled for unreasonable reasons. Defaming a physician, even if its only your "opinion" is hurtful and dangerous, and potentially damaging to professionals that deal with difficult people in some of the most difficult circumstances life has to offer. Many of these patients may in fact have emotional problems that affect their ability to give or receive communication normally, or to honestly and accurately portray the situations they deal with. Who is going to be able to tell the difference?
Should we all be held accountable? Certainly, just as the patients should (non compliance, obesity, smoking, missing appointments to just name a few). Medicine is difficult enough and has become too much of a battlefield as it is today without having to deal with sometimes wild, unfounded, and misplaced accusations. There are accepted channels to go through to deal with complaints regarding physicans, from actually sitting down to voice your concerns with the doctor to speaking with hospitals to going to the state medical board.
Let's try to remember that physicians are human too, and sometimes may have an off day and a "lousy" attitude. Our parents die, our children become sick, our patients die despite our greatests attempts, we carry the weight of a lot of peoples problems in our hearts and souls every day.
You want to "fight back"? Then do so in a fair and equitable way. Life in medicine is hard enough. Practicing today is a virtual minefield. Take a look at the statistics of the mass exodous from medicine that is gathering steam. I abhor medical professionals that do not have compassion, empathy and respect for their patients, I also know that this is a relative minority. Let's offer respect to those that sacrifice personal life and family every day for what they do, and avoid putting them in yet another defensless position.

I could not agree more. I have unfortunately had to avail myself of the medical profession far more than most and I have nothing but gratitude to those physicians and others. If not for them, I would not be (1) walking, (2) seeing, and more important (3) alive.... How easy it is to complain about having to wait longer than expected when a physician may be dealing with an emergency and to CHOOSE not to understand the meaning of 'triage.' I was recently treated by an outstanding physician (I say that having had enough 'training' of my own) whom I overheard being threatened with a lawsuit by a loud, obnoxious patient who didn't like 'the news.' I could cite instances and more instances. No doubt there are those in the medical field with less personality than we would like, but that's not what I'm there for!

In another thread I recently wrote about the PA who took a hand that looked like ground beef and transformed it back into a hand following an accident in December; I was in The Villages Hospital ER for SIX hours, during which time he was either with me or constantly running back in to check on me. I learned recently that his submitted charge was just under $500, from which the insurance company promptly subtracted over $400, meaning that he was paid less than $100 for his services. As I pointed out, this is less than our oldest son, a grocery clerk, earns in six hours. The control the government has given to insurance companies makes life extremely difficult not just for us as patients but for medical practitioners in general, just another issue that's part of their lives.

I also served as a Hospice volunteer for many years and was in fact instrumental in bringing the Hospice movement into our rural NYS region. The level of care and compassion on the part of physicians and others dealing with terminal patients and their families was beyond touching.

I would not be thrilled to sign the waiver which started this thread, but to an extent, given the power of the Internet, I can understand where it's coming from....

[serenityseeker]

Thanks for the input Syd.
You made some points I was trying to and perhaps didn't do so well with.
These eBay/Amazon type reviews really dont have a place in medicine. The physician is defensless and bound by HIPPA (federal laws governing confidentiality).
Never ONCE in private practice was I late (and almost always was late) for anything personal like eating lunch or peeing. It was the patient that went bad in the hospital unexpectedly or the one that came to the office with the heart attack or bleeding wound instead of going to the E.R, or the one that came in for a blood pressure check and just happened to mention they had been suicidal since the death of their spouse.. Did that keep people from being angry? For those with basic compassion and intelligence yes. For some, they frankly said they didn't care if someone else was dying, they were important too (yes they said THAT).
Imagine those same unreasonable people posting whatever they wanted with the physician having no recourse, as if he even had time to pursue that while struggling with the patients' difficulties and the day to day struggle of keeping the office running. It simply is mean spirited and unfare. I interestingly did not hear nearly the clamour to set up sites singing the praises of great doctors.
I'm just saying guys, it is the hardest job I could have ever imangined, and the continous/unrelenting attacks from lawyers, insurance companies, the government, and disgruntled patients is making leaving medicine behind an easier and easier decision for more and more physicians.
Think you have a tough time getting an appointment now? If you couple the virtual dearth of those entering primary care residiencies with those leaving the field and retiring early or changing careers, you aint seen nothing yet.
I could go on for pages about yearly salary cuts for most physicians for the last 5-8 years, the lawsuit issues and more. My point is if you feel the need to attack them you have be prepared for the future consequences. As I said before there are established ways to go about addressing problems that don't encourage anger driven, harmful, indefensible comments.
The physcian can't just ban them from the board they post on if he doesn't agree.
The physician can't just say that he has been asking you to lose 50 lbs and quit smoking for 10 years.
The physcician cant just say how you miss follow up appointments and don't take medicines as ordered.
The physician can't explain that "Jane Doe" shared that her husband is beating her, leading to a longer office visit and referal to proper avenues of help.
If you have problems with your doctor TELL HIM or HER! So many people never do then trash the doctor. We need reminders just like everyone else, and sometimes don't realize the front staff has slipped into bad habits.
If that doesn't work, vote with your pocketbook and go to someone else. And by all means if a loved one or friend asks you your opinion give it, just do so after doing your part to encourage communication and a fair resolution.