Kind of funny and sad

[autumnspring]

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

The salaries paid to firefighters, police, teachers, the military and others that provide a great public service....have always been ridiculously low in my opinion.

The problem of course, is that wages are pretty much driven by what it takes...to get qualified people to fill those positions.

Comparing professional athletes and entertainers, with these jobs...just isn't realistic.

Team owners don't want to pay any more than they need to either, but will do it based on what they think they have to shell out to fill the seats.

And therein lies the big problem.

Athletes/entertainers are paid on what they can make their owners (ROI), whereas dedicated public servants are considered a 'necessary evil'...by those who want their taxes to stay low.

Is it fair that most plumbers make more than a cop or firefighter?

Not in my book...but yet they do.

I'm truly not arguing BUT you need to look at the total COMPENSATION PACKAGE. Retirement age, 401K, 403B, medical care.

Someone mentioned a comparison to NY. As an ex-New Yorker you may not be aware what the cost of living is.
It is far higher than here. A former friend was with JC Penny. They offered a 20% raise to anyone who had to move to NY metro area. Those that checked found out due to the higher cost of living their standard of living would fall. We paid a 6% state tax plus ???? 2% for a non resident NYC tax. To get to work was $150 a month to the LIRR. The real estate tax on our 1200 sq foot house on a 50x100 lot was $10,000.

[redwitch]

If what I've been reading on this issue is accurate, there is something seriously wrong.

1. The Villages fire fighters are the lowest paid not just in the Tri-County area, but all of Central Florida.

2. The Villages has an exceedingly high turnover rate. It seems that many use TV for training and then move on to other fire departments for better pay and retirement benefits.

3. We are seriously understaffed.

4. Under the new negotiations/contract to date (arbitration to come), new hires will start at a higher rate of pay, old employees are not getting increases.

If these facts are correct, there is something seriously wrong. We deserve to have the best fire department possible-- not one staffed by people who leave as soon as they feel are fully trained. Our fire engines need to be fully staffed -- not just two individuals per truck. Our emergency response providers deserve to be paid at least as much as those in surrounding communities, if not more.

I really don't understand how TV can budget hundreds of thousands for landscapers but not budget fair wages for those hired to protect that property and the individuals who use that property, including those who reside here.

[Gpsma]

Originally Posted by suesiegel

I'm truly not arguing BUT you need to look at the total COMPENSATION PACKAGE. Retirement age, 401K, 403B, medical care.

Someone mentioned a comparison to NY. As an ex-New Yorker you may not be aware what the cost of living is.
It is far higher than here. A former friend was with JC Penny. They offered a 20% raise to anyone who had to move to NY metro area. Those that checked found out due to the higher cost of living their standard of living would fall. We paid a 6% state tax plus ???? 2% for a non resident NYC tax. To get to work was $150 a month to the LIRR. The real estate tax on our 1200 sq foot house on a 50x100 lot was $10,000.

Thank you for posting the reality of giving into municipal unions. The old emotional cry that "they risk their lives to save others" just doesn't match up to reality. Why LI police are among the highest paid in the nation when they rarely work as hard as their NYPD colleagues is a testament to collusion between municipal unions and elected politicians.

Not denying that TV firemen deserve a decent salary but lets stop with the emotional saving my life argument.

[JoMar]

If the truth is that the rookies come here, get trained and a level of experience and then leave to join other Companies at higher wages and improved benefits all the comparisons and previous arguments really don't matter. If you believe that is the truth and you are willing to have a less experienced force to respond to your emergency needs then the comparisons don't matter. When you are satisfied with the status quo then you accept the status quo as sufficient to meet you needs and the comparisons don't matter. Until of course, you need their services....then the comparisons might matter.

[villagetinker]

I wonder if it would be possible (or a good idea) to see if the counties would take over the villages fire stations. The villages would pay (at a minimum) the existing wages as fees for fire service, EMT, etc. coverage. The fire fighters, EMTs, etc. would not be county employees, with access to pension plans, 401K, higher wages, etc. The counties would pay the employees the higher wages.

I do admit there might be an increase in taxes (property) but there might be advantages to this approach, but from what I have seen this is not necessarily a concern.

Disclaimer: I was a volunteer fire fighter for 7 years in PA., a long time ago. I have no dog in this fight, but I am presenting as a possible alternative. I have no problem with these people being county employees, as they would still be stationed in the villages, and the villages would still be primary response.

[Carl in Tampa]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Being awakened in the middle of the night...havoc with their systems. NOT a good debate argument.

Actually, Gracie, medical research indicates that being jarred out of a sound sleep in order to respond to a fire alarm is one of the principal causes of Cardiac Heart Disease (CHD.) This has been accepted fact for decades, and the majority of our states, Florida among them, have codified a presumption of Line of Duty injury for firefighters who develop CHD.

Florida has added coverage for police as well in recent years.

FLORIDA STATUTE 112.18 (2002)

112.18 Firefighters and law enforcement or correctional officers; special provisions relative to disability —

(1) Any condition or impairment of health of any Florida state, municipal, county, port authority, special tax district, or fire control district firefighter or any law enforcement officer or correctional officer as defined in s. 943.10(1), (2), or (3) caused by tuberculosis, heart disease, or hypertension resulting in total or partial disability or death shall be presumed to have been accidental and to have been suffered in the line of duty unless the contrary be shown by competent evidence.

--------------------------------

One medical study said: Coronary heart disease (CHD) has consistently been the leading cause of "on-duty deaths" or fatalities resulting from injury or illness occurring during fire department duties. CHD accounted for about 45% of these deaths from 1977–2002. This compares with 22% of on-duty deaths due to CHD among police and detectives, 15% among occupational fatalities overall, and 11% among other emergency medical service (EMS) workers.

The study reports: Numerous occupational factors could precipitate CHD events in firefighters. First, firefighting includes long sedentary stretches followed by irregular heavy exertion. Firefighters react immediately to alarms with significant increases in pulse rate. During fire suppression, they work at near maximal heart rates while wearing about 50 pounds of protective equipment, sometimes for prolonged periods. Heat stress and fluid losses can result in decreases in cardiac output despite sustained tachycardia. Second, self-contained breathing apparatus use has reduced, but not eliminated chemical exposures including carbon monoxide, particulates and other toxicants. Third, firefighters experience intermittent noise exposure, which may increase blood pressure. Fourth, firefighters often perform shift work, which may increase the risk of CHD.

Firefighters and on-duty deaths from coronary heart disease: a case control study

[Larry&Mary]

As a retired LEO from Michigan I think firefighters and police pay and benefits should be compared to "comparable departments" in the area. Defined benefit pensions are slowly going away. Defined contribution pensions, with significant contributions by both employer and employee is essential. Health benefits should also be compared to area departments. First responders deserve fair and equitable compensation and benefits

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by fw102807

I am very disturbed by the opposition to pay increases to the firefighters. People see nothing wrong with paying some fool who can throw a ball around millions of dollars but do not want to pay someone who may save their life.
How much money do you waste on designer items or tickets to sporting events or even expensive cars but you refuse to pay a few more dollars to pay the first responders? The people who come day and night when you have a medical emergency or are in an accident, or set your house on fire or have to respond to a shooting or bombing. Really people?

I agree but who are you angry with? I don't waste money. I am a grateful for firefighters.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Larry&Mary

As a retired LEO from Michigan I think firefighters and police pay and benefits should be compared to "comparable departments" in the area. Defined benefit pensions are slowly going away. Defined contribution pensions, with significant contributions by both employer and employee is essential. Health benefits should also be compared to area departments. First responders deserve fair and equitable compensation and benefits

Bump for good points.

[eremite06]

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa

Actually, Gracie, medical research indicates that being jarred out of a sound sleep in order to respond to a fire alarm is one of the principal causes of Cardiac Heart Disease (CHD.) This has been accepted fact for decades, and the majority of our states, Florida among them, have codified a presumption of Line of Duty injury for firefighters who develop CHD.

Florida has added coverage for police as well in recent years.

FLORIDA STATUTE 112.18 (2002)

112.18 Firefighters and law enforcement or correctional officers; special provisions relative to disability —

(1) Any condition or impairment of health of any Florida state, municipal, county, port authority, special tax district, or fire control district firefighter or any law enforcement officer or correctional officer as defined in s. 943.10(1), (2), or (3) caused by tuberculosis, heart disease, or hypertension resulting in total or partial disability or death shall be presumed to have been accidental and to have been suffered in the line of duty unless the contrary be shown by competent evidence.

--------------------------------

One medical study said: Coronary heart disease (CHD) has consistently been the leading cause of "on-duty deaths" or fatalities resulting from injury or illness occurring during fire department duties. CHD accounted for about 45% of these deaths from 1977–2002. This compares with 22% of on-duty deaths due to CHD among police and detectives, 15% among occupational fatalities overall, and 11% among other emergency medical service (EMS) workers.

The study reports: Numerous occupational factors could precipitate CHD events in firefighters. First, firefighting includes long sedentary stretches followed by irregular heavy exertion. Firefighters react immediately to alarms with significant increases in pulse rate. During fire suppression, they work at near maximal heart rates while wearing about 50 pounds of protective equipment, sometimes for prolonged periods. Heat stress and fluid losses can result in decreases in cardiac output despite sustained tachycardia. Second, self-contained breathing apparatus use has reduced, but not eliminated chemical exposures including carbon monoxide, particulates and other toxicants. Third, firefighters experience intermittent noise exposure, which may increase blood pressure. Fourth, firefighters often perform shift work, which may increase the risk of CHD.

Firefighters and on-duty deaths from coronary heart disease: a case control study

Thank you. That's why, although I retired 11 years ago, I have Work Comp. coverage for hypertension and a bad back. All considered work related. I had coworkers who died in the line of duty as well as from their own hands.

[The Buckeyes]

The problem is most people are looking at a raw number on wages. I suggest you throw in the annual pension and benefit contributions an employer makes per employee to see what the real wage the person is making. I used to vote yes on school levies up north until I FOUND OUT it isn't about the kids. The school gets 15 cents from every dollar and the remaining 85 cents goes for salaries, pensions and benefits.

[57ChevyFI]

As much as I respect firefighters and appreciate everything they do, I've never understood why they get paid to sleep on 24 hour shifts. Why don't they do 12 hour shifts or some other rotating shifts. I can't think of many jobs where you get paid to sleep, just wondering.

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by 57ChevyFI

As much as I respect firefighters and appreciate everything they do, I've never understood why they get paid to sleep on 24 hour shifts. Why don't they do 12 hour shifts or some other rotating shifts. I can't think of many jobs where you get paid to sleep, just wondering.

If firefighters worked a 12 hour night shift, wouldn't they still sleep?
Or would you want them to stay awake in case their services were required?
To me it makes more sense for firefighters to work 24 hours shifts.
That way they can spend the days training and cleaning the trucks and equipment, and at night they are on call.

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by 57ChevyFI

As much as I respect firefighters and appreciate everything they do, I've never understood why they get paid to sleep on 24 hour shifts. Why don't they do 12 hour shifts or some other rotating shifts. I can't think of many jobs where you get paid to sleep, just wondering.

Don't doctors at hospitals do it? Don't they have rooms with beds where they can sleep?