[Bay Kid]

Originally Posted by Rainger99

Looks like they could go to NYC.

I was watching the news this morning and saw the shelter that New York City is building for illegal immigrants. Looked pretty nice - three meals a day, a fancy popcorn machine, big screen tvs, free telephones, and the city gives them “Fluff & Fold” laundry service. I would think once word gets out that illegals can get these benefits, we may get a lot of people coming across the southern border.

It is a shame. Illegals treated better than our veterans. No wonder the illegals want to come here. Free stuff, paid for by working taxpayers.

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

I hate to be blunt, but I don't care where they go. I want the police to enforce the law and make them leave. If they don't, I will move somewhere else. I can live anywhere, but I won't live in an area where there are homeless people hanging around creating an uncomfortable situation.

Absolutely!!!

The worst possible scenario would be that TV becomes known as a haven for homeless people. And word DOES get around. This, quoted from the KGW website:

“The services that they're offering here as opposed to other places are a lot better. There's probably a lot better food,” said Portlander Chris Blair. “People realizing this, see that this is an easy place to exist and they just flock here.”

Does anyone really want TV to be known the same way as Portland? I sure don't. And don't kid yourself--word is probably already out. We have everything: great weather, people who do give to panhandlers, a degree of sympathy for the plight of homeless people, etc.

Due to bleedingheart policies and "advocates" who are long on idealism but usually very short on knowledge of the subject, Parts of America resemble third-world countries. And more and more so all the time. Action needs to be taken NOW, while the problem here is still relatively small. The more it grows, the harder it will be to fix.

Just ask the people of Portland.

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by vitacr

Write a "Letter to the Editor" on the Daily Sun - They do NOT like negativity - it might stir up some corrective activity.

If said letter contains ANYTHING negative that might make readers decide not to move to TV, rest assured they won't print it.

[LAFwUs]

I don't think we want anything printed in any paper.
While that sounds like a great idea at first, its not.
That would be like advertising it. Homeless read newspapers & periodicals too. Some may see that as a challenge. Word maybe already out on the street. I think it is.

I also suspect that some may have been here already, and now as the villages are spreading out, particularly in the south end, new construction & expansion may well be flushing them up & out or otherwise displacing them from existing spots, which sends them on the hunt for new spots close by.

IMHO - this needs aggressive action by both CDD & resident's - starting yesterday (they are already coming in obviously) and a definitive plan of prevention going forward. Let the word get out that its not tolerated here - without exception and decisive legal action will be taken against any that try.
That's how you stop it. It requires real action & constant vigilance going forward, however uncomfortable that maybe for some who think we can hand them a sack lunch & a toothbrush and hope they stay in a shelter.
A strongly worded no trespassing sign, will not get this done!

[billethkid]

The tools are already in place.....simply enforce the laws currently in existence and cease all discussions about whose feelings might be hurt or organization that might not like it.

We are becoming a weaker/less safe society due to lack of enforcement or selective enforcement.

___________________________________________

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by billethkid

The tools are already in place.....simply enforce the laws currently in existence and cease all discussions about whose feelings might be hurt or organization that might not like it.

We are becoming a weaker/less safe society due to lack of enforcement or selective enforcement.

___________________________________________

And I would do it quickly before the do-gooders, the social crusaders, and other assorted agenda driven weenies show up

[ElDiabloJoe]

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

Bingo!

In Minnesota (with similar occurrences in most other states) the push began in the early 70's with a court case, Welsch v. Noot; Patty Welsch being a young disabled woman and Noot being the Minnesota Commissioner of Public Welfare. The gist of the case was that A) persons with mental and physical handicaps deserved to receive habilitative services; and B) that such people deserved to live in the least restrictive setting possible for their needs. Hard to argue with that, but as the years went by and people were moved from the large institutions ("State hospitals" in Minnesota; "Colonies" in neighboring Wisconsin) those large edifices, many approaching a century old, no longer had any use and were gradually consolidated and closed. The irony was that persons over 18 who were NOT under State or private guardianship or in the custody of corrections had the right to live where they pleased. Also, it was recognized somewhat vaguely that such people had the right to be mentally ill and as such, if they chose NOT to take their meds, it was completely up to them.

The result was inevitable. When it was recognized that some of these people could NOT be helped other than in an institution, the institutions either no longer existed or had been transformed into prisons. In Minnesota, particularly in the Minneapolis - St. Paul metro and first-ring suburbs, dozens of homeless encampments sprouted, mainly in the public parks but one in particular that caught everyone's eye was one on a hillside close to the St. Paul Cathedral. I saw it last about two years ago. It was huge; tents, chairs, people lying on the grass, people urinating (and assumedly defecating) in the open, etc. The Minnesota-based Wilder Foundation, back in 2018, stated that "An estimated 19,600 Minnesotans experienced homelessness on any given night in 2018. 50,600 people experienced homelessness over the course of the year." That was four years ago, and as I understand it, for a variety of reasons, the estimates are far beyond that today. Remember--this is Minnesota, where living outdoors might easily mean snow for six months of the year and temperatures on the coldest nights reaching -30 f. or even lower.

The impact on the communities has been far from just financial. Before our retirement my wife worked in downtown Minneapolis, riding the bus there from a suburban park-and-ride, and what she saw sometimes were beyond shocking. The homeless would come into the city from the parks and basically take over the bus stops particularly in the winter. My wife witnessed people doing their business completely in the open. There've been numerous instances of public masturbation and people having sex, again in the open. Panhandlers have gone from asking for money with a sad song-and-dance spiel to actively and aggressively demanding money from passers-by. There've been assaults, by homeless against one another and against passers-by. Drug use is rampant. Inner-city Minneapolis is going from a bustling city to, more and more, a deserted place as people who work there either find other jobs or take advantage of working from home. I know less about the situation in St. Paul, but last I heard things are pretty much paralleling Minneapolis over there. One particularly noisome and obnoxious practice over there is the homeless using the skywalks as toilets as well as sheltering in them at night. Though I cannot remember the particulars I recall an action over there that opposed closing the skywalks at the end of the business day because the homeless would be inconvenienced.

Yes. Our short-sighted policies created this monster (or actually "monsters" because most large cities probably have similar stories to tell). And yes. I have sympathy for these people. But how it is being handled, in all too many cases with kid gloves, is NOT working. If there is a growing homeless problem here in TV, then I will make it a point to crusade for the authorities to clean it up posthaste. I have seen firsthand what it can mushroom into. And I don't want to be anywhere near it.

^ Outstanding post!

I've dealt with homeless professionally many times. The vast majority are "homeless" because they do not wish to live by anyone else's rules or requirements. They are also very demanding - you offer them a dollar and they demand $5. You offer them food and they demand money. The vast majority of money people give panhandlers goes to alcohol and/or drugs.

A quick rule to live by: If you don't want pigeons around, don't feed them. That means no coins or dollars to panhandlers.

[ElDiabloJoe]

Originally Posted by Oldragbagger

On it’s face this sounds like a good and caring solution. But it’s not that simple when dealing with the homeless. I’m not taking about the person who suddenly finds themselves living in their car because of an economic downturn, or the person who has fled a bad home situation and finds themselves with nowhere to go. That’s a whole different subject and helping that person find temporary housing would be absolutely the right thing to help them turn their situation around. But the long term homeless are a whole different matter.

How do I know this? I have an alcoholic brother who has lived on the streets, by choice, for 15 years. I’ve had plenty of dealing over the years with him and his homeless friends. Everyone in the family has tried to help him, time and time again, but one by one we all had to give up at a point when it started to have toxic effects on our own lives and families .

My brother has been in and out of shelters so many times but never stays because they come with some expectations of acceptable behavior or even, god forbid, rules which he refuses to adhere to. Such as, most churches won’t tolerate you sitting on your bunk drinking yourself into oblivion, or being aggressive, or using constant foul language, or……fill in the blanks.

These folks usually have either substance abuse issues, mental problems, or both. Just finding them a place to sleep isn’t the answer, and honestly, as much as we’d like to believe differently, the vast majority of them have no desire to change their lifestyle. As hard as it is for those of us who live a normal life within society to understand, there is a freedom and a lack of expectations that comes with their life that they don’t want to relinquish in order to get “help.”

He has been in and out of rehab probably a dozen times over the years. Rarely makes it past a few days. And he has been banned from some shelters. He knows where to get a free meal if he needs it, and prefers to sleep in a tent wherever he can. He has been camping in someone’s back yard (with permission) for a couple of years now. If that should end he “knows” all the spots he can go where he is unlikely to be bothered by the law. What would be unfortunate would be for our local homeless population to start to realize that our neighborhoods are one of those places.

Are they all dangerous? I don’t know. I don’t personally believe my brother would intentionally hurt anyone. Although I do think that he might perceive a threat in a drunken state and respond in an unpredictable manner. Do I think he would steal from you if given an opportunity? You betcha. They even steal from each other. Their justification, survival.

Wow! Your extensive first-hand experience mirrors my observations to a tee. I would like to add two things:

1. Wherever the homeless are "living," like someone's backyard or snowbird lanai, keep in mind they will not go far to go to the bathroom, preferably no more than 50 steps. Expect them to be ****ing and crapping in your sideyard. They also generate a phenomenal amount of garbage and trash - fast food wrappers, "salvaged finds" (stolen junk), etc. that they will never clean up. The flies, other insects, and vermin (mice and rats) will arrive shortly thereafter;

2. For those who believe the Sheriff will come and haul away trespassers or those that drink in public or steal shopping carts, etc. You are living in a dream land.

There is hardly enough jail space for people that commit violent crimes, much less crimes of life quality. They will get a ticket, if that, until they no show on enough of them that a warrant is issued. Then one day in court wipes all of them away, and the cycle repeats. You are kidding yourselves if you think the police will use ANY kind of force (even hands-on, guiding motions) to enforce these non-violent minor misdemeanors. Not from lack of willingness, but from lack of bureaucratic resolve. A simple push opens up a force investigation, and a supervisorial packet prepared - a lengthy and unpopular pastime. That packet often goes to the local District Attorney's office for review and possible criminal charges.

The end result will come all the way back to the Deputy or Officer with the question: Why was force utilized for such a minor crime? Unjustified. That will put them at risk of discipline at the lightest, all the way up to a civil lawsuit and being fired (putting income and family/housing/etc) at personal risk.

[ElDiabloJoe]

Originally Posted by manaboutown

A few years ago I was acquainted with a woman in her 60s who was a librarian in Laguna Beach, CA. The verbal abuse and threatening gestures from homeless bums she was forced to endure daily were awful. Apparently the police could not or would not patrol the library or intervene as the bums had their"rights" although she apparently had none. She was close to retirement so could not just quit.

Public libraries in many cities have become for their legitimate users distasteful at best and dangerous at worst as alcoholic, druggie, filthy, stinking criminal homeless bums are allowed to spend their days lounging around on the couches sleeping it off inside. I would not dare enter the bathrooms of a public library in many communities today. When I was a child my mother took me at least weekly to the town's public library. I always felt safe there and never saw a vagrant (as they were called in those days) hanging around. How did it come to this?

I have been to that library, several times. It's on Glenneyre. I used to park in the adjacent two-story structure for my training runs up to "Top of the World." I would jump into the library pre-run to use their bathroom.

I have seen first-hand that which your librarian friend complained about.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by ElDiabloJoe

Wow! Your extensive first-hand experience mirrors my observations to a tee. I would like to add two things:

1. Wherever the homeless are "living," like someone's backyard or snowbird lanai, keep in mind they will not go far to go to the bathroom, preferably no more than 50 steps. Expect them to be ****ing and crapping in your sideyard. They also generate a phenomenal amount of garbage and trash - fast food wrappers, "salvaged finds" (stolen junk), etc. that they will never clean up. The flies, other insects, and vermin (mice and rats) will arrive shortly thereafter;

2. For those who believe the Sheriff will come and haul away trespassers or those that drink in public or steal shopping carts, etc. You are living in a dream land.

There is hardly enough jail space for people that commit violent crimes, much less crimes of life quality. They will get a ticket, if that, until they no show on enough of them that a warrant is issued. Then one day in court wipes all of them away, and the cycle repeats. You are kidding yourselves if you think the police will use ANY kind of force (even hands-on, guiding motions) to enforce these non-violent minor misdemeanors. Not from lack of willingness, but from lack of bureaucratic resolve. A simple push opens up a force investigation, and a supervisorial packet prepared - a lengthy and unpopular pastime. That packet often goes to the local District Attorney's office for review and possible criminal charges.

The end result will come all the way back to the Deputy or Officer with the question: Why was force utilized for such a minor crime? Unjustified. That will put them at risk of discipline at the lightest, all the way up to a civil lawsuit and being fired (putting income and family/housing/etc) at personal risk.

I realize you have extensive experience in these matters and I have none, but.....

I would think if there was a no trespassing restriction or even a court ordered restraining order (which "the developer" probably has enough clout to obtain), then the Sheriff would have an obligation and duty to enforce the law. That should go for stolen grocery carts and drinking in public as well.

As far a jail space, personally, I wouldn't bother. Just set up a WWII POW camp with barracks, triple razor wire fencing and machine gun towers, all surrounded by landmines. Then the homeless would have shelter, security, and could grow their own food. I'd even have an on-site trade school so they could learn to make a living on their own, as well as psychiatric treatment for those that need it. Those that won't co-operate can spend some time in "the cooler", ala Steve Mcqueen. And the bleeding hearts can go join them if they wish

[ElDiabloJoe]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

Are you saying that, if they are breaking the law, the police shouldn't make them leave?

How? By force? Is the physical application of force by government agents warranted for a low-level non-violent crime? Do you think the officers don't realize the personal criminal and civil liability that the application of such force in these or similar circumstances would be? Not to mention the vilification in the media and by protest groups outside their homes.

Easy to say "Make the police make them do it or leave" because it seems that easy on television. Much more complex in the real world.

Law enforcement: The only job everyone in the world thinks they know how to do better than those that actually do it.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by ElDiabloJoe

How? By force? Is the physical application of force by government agents warranted for a low-level non-violent crime? Do you think the officers don't realize the personal criminal and civil liability that the application of such force in these or similar circumstances would be? Not to mention the vilification in the media and by protest groups outside their homes.

Easy to say "Make the police make them do it or leave" because it seems that easy on television. Much more complex in the real world.

Law enforcement: The only job everyone in the world thinks they know how to do better than those that actually do it.

IMHO, yes. I don't really consider invading a home (vacant), urinating and defecating there, leaving trash all around, attracting insects or maybe even Yogi Bear a "low level" crime. Jay walking is a low level crime. Parking illegally is a low level crime. Spitting on the sidewalk is a low level crime. What these people are doing is not low level to my mind.

[ElDiabloJoe]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Here's how the conversation goes:
Cop: You'll have to leave now.
A back and forth conversation ensues. Eventually...
Homeless: Where should I go?
Cop: Somewhere other than here.

Homeless picks up his stuff and walks a few blocks away, and sets his stuff down again.

Rinse, repeat.

Until you have a place for them to GO, they will continue to go wherever it's convenient for them to go. And if that means your back yard, then that's where they'll go. When they're ordered to go somewhere else, they'll end up in someone else's back yard. And so on and so forth, til they're back in your back yard again. I use "back yard" metaphorically - meaning - your part of the Villages, the dumpster behind the nearest Winn Dixie, the woods under the nearest bridge, by the edge of the river, wherever you consider "your turf" to be.

Exactly this. I used to have a regular I encountered, now deceased. Michael Armstrong. I actually liked the guy, even though he was a drunken homeless problem-causer. When called to deal with him, I always asked Mike, "Mike, what's the golden rule?" Mike would reply, "Out of sight - out of mind." Essentially, go somewhere where people won't call the police on you. Alleys, behind the library, behind grocery stores, wooded areas like freeway rights of way, etc.

There was little else I could do to help him, he had either abused and been refused social and religious services, or refused to utilize them.

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by ElDiabloJoe

How? By force? Is the physical application of force by government agents warranted for a low-level non-violent crime? Do you think the officers don't realize the personal criminal and civil liability that the application of such force in these or similar circumstances would be? Not to mention the vilification in the media and by protest groups outside their homes.

Easy to say "Make the police make them do it or leave" because it seems that easy on television. Much more complex in the real world.

Law enforcement: The only job everyone in the world thinks they know how to do better than those that actually do it.

Heh. The inevitable and inescapable result of the machinations of numerous "agenda driven weenies" as another poster put it.

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by ElDiabloJoe

How? By force? Is the physical application of force by government agents warranted for a low-level non-violent crime? Do you think the officers don't realize the personal criminal and civil liability that the application of such force in these or similar circumstances would be? Not to mention the vilification in the media and by protest groups outside their homes.

Easy to say "Make the police make them do it or leave" because it seems that easy on television. Much more complex in the real world.

Law enforcement: The only job everyone in the world thinks they know how to do better than those that actually do it.

Yes, by force.

That is why they call it law enFORCEment.