[mrdarcy]

I think Peachie has identified the reason why the wall was erected in the first place. Whenever something abrupt and dramatic happens to change the status quo, in addition to asking "Why?", one should also ask "Why now?"

After being used as a thoroughfare for 15+ years, the wall was erected on the weekend 2 days before Villages representatives appeared before Fruitland Park officials to discuss expansion south of 466A into Fruitland Park's jurisdiction. Fruitland Park officials want agreement for Fruitland Park residents to use Villages multi-modal paths to access merchants at Colony Plaza as one condition in the negotiations.

Fruitland Park officials could have pointed to precedent of the longstanding "breech" in the northern Villages perimeter on Paradise Drive, that is until the "breech" was sealed right before the meeting with Fruitland Park.

I think impending negotiations with Fruitland Park prompted erection of the wall on Paradise Drive. Harbor Chase and the new assisted living facility would not explain the "Why now?". The Fruitland Park negotiations certainly would. They would also explain why the Developer was not really paying attention to the impact on the historic section, if his focus is concentrated on new expansion. If one's head is in the realms of multi-million dollar expansion deals, one is not thinking about interruption in Villagers' day to day lives. Indeed, not paying attention to such impact is thoughtless, but in the scenario I described above, it it understandable.

What I really hope happened is Mr. Morse was reminded by those who knew his father, that his father would never have overlooked the impact of his actions on his neighbors. Though we don't know what caused him to dismantle the wall, perhaps Mr. Morse could be afforded some measure of forgiveness, if reminder of his father's generosity and good character, instead a legal technicality, prompted him to remove the wall so quickly after he installed it.

We Villagers could take the high road on this one, as the view is better from the high road. The Developer can most definitely be thoughtless, and even heartless, as he's demonstrated on a number of occasions. But he can also be incredibly thoughtful as he's demonstrated by planning and implementing the most phenomenal retirement community in the country. Good and bad can exist in the same person. We are all examples of that.

[Steve9930]

Originally Posted by mikeod

Couple of questions regarding private vs. public.

If a municipality uses federal tax-free bonds to construct something, how does that make it public? Let's say Lady Lake issues bonds to build a pool. Can they not prohibit non-residents from using it? Or say they build a nature trail. Can't they restrict access? I don't see that using federal tax exempt bonds automatically forces an entity to open access to everyone.

Also, a distinction needs to be made regarding cart paths. Those that are completely separate from roadways are maintained with amenity funds. If they are public, why are they not maintained by the tax dollars we pay in addition to our amenity fee? I don't recall a credit on my tax bill for that portion of the amenity fee that goes toward maintenance of those paths. Now, the paths/diamond lanes that are on the surface streets are maintained by the county and funded by tax dollars (property and/or gas taxes). That also applies to roads within the community that have no designated cart lane, but are used by carts as well as autos.

Frankly, I agree with others who believe that this whole situation is not the result of safety/liability concerns with outside carts entering TV. Rather it is a developer who has tired of outside businesses advertising cart access to TV which undermines his ability to sell/lease land for similar enterprises within TV. I don't know what Freedom Pointe or the facility on 466A paid for their property to get cart access within TV, but I think it is safe to assume it was more than the new one on 441 paid.

I truly hope the result of all this is the path remains open and access is unaltered from before the wall. I fear that if access to TV is restricted, it won't be long before Harbor Chase decides maintaining the path is not worth it without access to TV.

Here's your answer to paragraph one: The fact that they can issue Tax Free Bonds. You must be a municipality to issue such bonds or a Public School District, or a County. The Villages is considered a Special Municipality under Florida Law. They are bound by many of the same regulations as any other city. The IRS in their last ruling to the Villages indicated they believe that the Villages because of the way some things were manipulated violated the rules which define the Villages as a political Municipality, therefore they had no authority to issue Tax Free Bonds. Sorry I got a bit off topic. Have a nice day.

[sailor47]

Originally Posted by mikeod

Couple of questions regarding private vs. public.


Frankly, I agree with others who believe that this whole situation is not the result of safety/liability concerns with outside carts entering TV. Rather it is a developer who has tired of outside businesses advertising cart access to TV which undermines his ability to sell/lease land for similar enterprises within TV. I don't know what Freedom Pointe or the facility on 466A paid for their property to get cart access within TV, but I think it is safe to assume it was more than the new one on 441 paid.

I truly hope the result of all this is the path remains open and access is unaltered from before the wall. I fear that if access to TV is restricted, it won't be long before Harbor Chase decides maintaining the path is not worth it without access to TV.

Me too. I don't get all the negativity toward the Morse Family. They have spent at least two generations building an almost perfect retirement community,IMO. It's the American Way. Do something exceptional and you will be rewarded.

[Steve9930]

Originally Posted by mrdarcy

I think Peachie has identified the reason why the wall was erected in the first place. Whenever something abrupt and dramatic happens to change the status quo, in addition to asking "Why?", one should also ask "Why now?"

After being used as a thoroughfare for 15+ years, the wall was erected on the weekend 2 days before Villages representatives appeared before Fruitland Park officials to discuss expansion south of 466A into Fruitland Park's jurisdiction. Fruitland Park officials want agreement for Fruitland Park residents to use Villages multi-modal paths to access merchants at Colony Plaza as one condition in the negotiations.

Fruitland Park officials could have pointed to precedent of the longstanding "breech" in the northern Villages perimeter on Paradise Drive, that is until the "breech" was sealed right before the meeting with Fruitland Park.

I think impending negotiations with Fruitland Park prompted erection of the wall on Paradise Drive. Harbor Chase and the new assisted living facility would not explain the "Why now?". The Fruitland Park negotiations certainly would. They would also explain why the Developer was not really paying attention to the impact on the historic section, if his focus is concentrated on new expansion. If one's head is in the realms of multi-million dollar expansion deals, one is not thinking about interruption in Villagers' day to day lives. Indeed, not paying attention to such impact is thoughtless, but in the scenario I described above, it it understandable.

What I really hope happened is Mr. Morse was reminded by those who knew his father, that his father would never have overlooked the impact of his actions on his neighbors. Though we don't know what caused him to dismantle the wall, perhaps Mr. Morse could be afforded some measure of forgiveness, if reminder of his father's generosity and good character, instead a legal technicality, prompted him to remove the wall so quickly after he installed it.

We Villagers could take the high road on this one, as the view is better from the high road. The Developer can most definitely be thoughtless, and even heartless, as he's demonstrated on a number of occasions. But he can also be incredibly thoughtful as he's demonstrated by planning and implementing the most phenomenal retirement community in the country. Good and bad can exist in the same person. We are all examples of that.

Way to connect the dots. Also Fruitland Park already has regulations and some sort of sticker program for using Golf Carts on Public Streets as I understand. Fruitland Park I hope will stand their ground.

[skip0358]

Originally Posted by GeorgeMiller061

I truly believe that the WALL had nothing to do with Stonecrest & everything to do with the new Harbor Chase facility being built.

I agree with you. I to believe it was Harbor Chase also and the fact that it wasn't a Village owned property. Period

[Peachie]

Originally Posted by Steve9930

Way to connect the dots. Also Fruitland Park already has regulations and some sort of sticker program for using Golf Carts on Public Streets as I understand. Fruitland Park I hope will stand their ground.

Steve, has anyone done the research regarding Stonecrest? Were any tax-free bonds or public financing provided for the building of Stonecrest and it's infrastructure or was it developed completely with private money. (Deep pockets may have provided this but I'm curious.)

[Mikeod]

Originally Posted by Steve9930

Here's your answer to paragraph one: The fact that they can issue Tax Free Bonds. You must be a municipality to issue such bonds or a Public School District, or a County. The Villages is considered a Special Municipality under Florida Law. They are bound by many of the same regulations as any other city. The IRS in their last ruling to the Villages indicated they believe that the Villages because of the way some things were manipulated violated the rules which define the Villages as a political Municipality, therefore they had no authority to issue Tax Free Bonds. Sorry I got a bit off topic. Have a nice day.

Doesn't answer my question. I read posts asserting that, because the infrastructure was financed using tax exempt bonds, TV has no right to restrict access to those paths that are maintained by amenity fees. I don't believe that this is correct, thus the examples above. Your response appears to say that any municipality financing anything using those bonds gives up the ability to place any restrictions on its use. If this is so, I should have unfettered access to any municipal facility anywhere as long as it was financed with tax exempt bonds. Really?

Sorry for taking this off topic. Belongs in a different or new thread.

[spk7951]

It has been a few years since we attended the golf cart safety clinic but I seem to recall that the Sumter County Sheriffs office stated that they can not issue speeding tickets on Villages golf cart paths because they are considered private property?

[Steve9930]

Originally Posted by Peachie

Steve, has anyone done the research regarding Stonecrest? Were any tax-free bonds or public financing provided for the building of Stonecrest and it's infrastructure or was it developed completely with private money. (Deep pockets may have provided this but I'm curious.)

No public monies where used to develop Stoncrest. The first developer went belly up and a group of investors from I believe NY invested in the development. All the money used were private funds. No bonds were issued. We are responsible for all maintenance on the roads and infrastructure. The Water treatment use to belong to the developer but was sold to Marion County. It kind of is a kick in the backside because my property taxes do not reflect the fact that Stonecrest receives no public money for the roads or sewers. I pay the same as any other resident of Marion County but I chose to live there. So far I've been very happy.

[skip0358]

Originally Posted by Steve9930

Way to connect the dots. Also Fruitland Park already has regulations and some sort of sticker program for using Golf Carts on Public Streets as I understand. Fruitland Park I hope will stand their ground.

How could FP residents access TV golf cart trails. They're not allowed to use their carts until you get up to the small shopping center past the horse farm?

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by janmcn

That's easy to say if you own a car or have access to a car or are able to drive a car.

Hopefully all the Morse supporters will attend the meeting to show their support for the developer. The press will be there in full force.

I am sure that the usual person with the notebook will be there glaring.

I wonder so often why the animosity.

NONE of us have met the Morses. I am pretty sure of that. Wouldn't it just be amazing if an old rich man was also a nice old man?

Meanwhile I am glad that our home is not our depended on investment, because we are all bent on devaluing our properties, on the internet, the television and in public meetings.

Plus I don't feel as warm toward Stonecrest as I used to.

I think we have accomplished nothing and have gone backwards.

[truered58]

This is for anyone concerned about TV cart paths, there swimming pools etc. I live at stonecrest and we as a whole do not use you pools. We have 3 outdoor pools and an indoor pool. If you found someone using your pool that is illegal because they have to have ID. End of subject. Also we have lighted pickle ball courts and boccie courts that people from the TV use at night. Do I care no does anyone else care no!! This is so stupid to fight and argue over this cart opening. We at Stonecrest are allowed to access your villages and use public stores, public restaurants, dry cleaners and your country clubs and championship golf courses at full price. So where do you all get off saying things are private? Let's come together and stop the bickering like a bunch of children. Mr morse has caused all of this to happen because WHY?? we don't know or probably will never know the real truth. Hope everyone has a blessed day!!!!

[EdV]

Originally Posted by mikeod

Couple of questions regarding private vs. public.

If a municipality uses federal tax-free bonds to construct something, how does that make it public? Let's say Lady Lake issues bonds to build a pool. Can they not prohibit non-residents from using it? Or say they build a nature trail. Can't they restrict access? I don't see that using federal tax exempt bonds automatically forces an entity to open access to everyone.

Also, a distinction needs to be made regarding cart paths. Those that are completely separate from roadways are maintained with amenity funds. If they are public, why are they not maintained by the tax dollars we pay in addition to our amenity fee? I don't recall a credit on my tax bill for that portion of the amenity fee that goes toward maintenance of those paths. Now, the paths/diamond lanes that are on the surface streets are maintained by the county and funded by tax dollars (property and/or gas taxes). That also applies to roads within the community that have no designated cart lane, but are used by carts as well as autos.....

If a municipality wants to issue a bond to build a town only pool or recreation center, they will usually issue a taxable municipal bond. There are some exceptions to this called “Tax Exempt Private Activity Bonds” but those are allowed for only a select list of facilities. Private recreational golf cart paths would not be one of those. See this IRS document for the details.

But the more important issue is that the roads throughout a CDD are supposed to be public, and because the roads in the villages CDDs allow golf cart usage, and are maintained by the county, you cannot have the county forcing these carts onto a private cart path in order to proceed.

Your questions about why the multi-modal paths weren’t being maintained by the individual districts maintenance taxes is an interesting one. Prior to the big 50 million dollar class action settlement quite a few years ago, it was the VCCDD’s position that those paths should in fact be maintained by the numbered districts and not the VCCDD or SLCDD. And at that time, the paths above 466 were deteriorating and too narrow so an upgrade was going to be expensive. Naturally, some of the individual districts squawked about that. The loudest squawkers were of course those districts that had the largest number of paths. So yup, at one point back then even Village residents were bickering with each other over the multi-modal paths.

In the end, the settlement infused some $30 million into the VCCDD and they now maintain the paths on the north side.

[Steve9930]

Originally Posted by mikeod

Doesn't answer my question. I read posts asserting that, because the infrastructure was financed using tax exempt bonds, TV has no right to restrict access to those paths that are maintained by amenity fees. I don't believe that this is correct, thus the examples above. Your response appears to say that any municipality financing anything using those bonds gives up the ability to place any restrictions on its use. If this is so, I should have unfettered access to any municipal facility anywhere as long as it was financed with tax exempt bonds. Really?

Sorry for taking this off topic. Belongs in a different or new thread.

A municipality does have control of their facilities but they don not have authority to discriminate its usage to residents only. The Villages would be allowed to require a Trail Sticker be purchased and Golf carts inspected before being allowed on the trail. But would not be allowed to discriminate based on your residency. Does that help? Issuing Tax Free Bonds are restricted to Municipalities. You get your funding but you also get a whole set of rules you need to follow. You can regulate but not discriminate is the simplest answer.

[Peachie]

Originally Posted by truered58

This is for anyone concerned about TV cart paths, there swimming pools etc. I live at stonecrest and we as a whole do not use you pools. We have 3 outdoor pools and an indoor pool. If you found someone using your pool that is illegal because they have to have ID. End of subject. Also we have lighted pickle ball courts and boccie courts that people from the TV use at night. Do I care no does anyone else care no!! This is so stupid to fight and argue over this cart opening. We at Stonecrest are allowed to access your villages and use public stores, public restaurants, dry cleaners and your country clubs and championship golf courses at full price. So where do you all get off saying things are private? Let's come together and stop the bickering like a bunch of children. Mr morse has caused all of this to happen because WHY?? we don't know or probably will never know the real truth. Hope everyone has a blessed day!!!!

If there is anything I have learned on these threads, it's that Stonecrest insists that non-Stonecresters can use anything of theirs that we want. I hope you're sharing your message with Spruce Creek, the new assisted living and developments to your north. I'm sure they'll be thrilled.