[BK001]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Agree. Let's do some (speculative) math:
If we get the plaintiffs to agree that no person who needs an interpreter takes no more than 3 classes/semester----which I doubt the majority of them would do anyway, then:

3 x 32==max 96 classes that need ASL. reduce this by classes with more than 1 deaf person and say 50% enrollments, so 50 classes. ASL interpreter: About $80/hr plus $30/hr travel time--assume max 1 hr each way so $220/class, average 2 hr class. Classes about 8 weeks = 220x8x50=$88,000. Since there were 18,000 scheduled to take classes next semester, = $4.80 fee each. Alternatively, $176,000/yr divided by 50,000 homes div by 12 = 30 cent/month additional amenity fee. Now, I don't have exact numbers but clearly the above estimate won't be off by more than a factor of 2, maybe 3, so make that 90 cents additional amenity fee. Clearly, the cost can easily be met----as long as the plaintiffs do not insist on "punitive damages".

There are also other management issues that would need to be addressed as pointed out by Jim Wilson (See post #447).

[dirtbanker]

Originally Posted by Leisha2

I think an easy solution would have been for The Villages to pay for an interpreter in any class a deaf person took. If no deaf people were attending, no interpreter needed. I don't believe there would have been deaf people in that many classes. That wouldn't have cost over 1 mil as the Villages stated in its case.

That is not the way the ADA is intended to work.

The intent of the law is to make it so the person with a disability does not have to ask anyone for help. The door has to be 32" clear opening, The pull handle has to be within 38" from floor, the door closer has to be 8 pounds or less resistance, the bottom 10" of the door has to be smooth (so a person in a wheel chair can operate and pass thru the door without assistance). There are dimensions for vanity heights, vanity mirror heights, restrictions on faucet handle shape (so a person with no hands can wash their feet I suppose). There are supposed to be ramps at sidewalk crossings (with texture bumps so the blind can discern it is an intersection). The list goes on, and on, and on.

All of the government hydro electric dams were built with a staircase at the main entrance of the building. Those all had to be torn out and replaced or supplemented with ramps. The dams give tours (Army Core of Engineers) they had to install chair lifts at the base of the elevator banks, in case someone in a wheelchair showed up for the tour. Billions of dollars spent, so the guy who got drunk and dived into an empty swimming pool can go on the hydro electric dam tour...

Mr Schwarz is a jackass. He is an educated man and knew that his demand to have interpreters provided for all classes would be financially impracticable. It is obvious; he had no desire to attend classes, he just wanted to pi$$ everyone else off and bring more scrutiny his way (a deaf exhibitionist).

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by dirtbanker

Mr Schwarz is a jackass. He is an educated man and knew that his demand to have interpreters provided for all classes would be financially impracticable. It is obvious; he had no desire to attend classes, he just wanted to pi$$ everyone else off and bring more scrutiny his way (a deaf exhibitionist).

How do you know that? Are you personally close enough to him that you know his thought process, or do you just read minds in general? Do you know that he demanded interpreters for "all classes"? You state he is educated, and such a demand would be moronic---sort of like having a Japanese interpreter at every class when no one speaks Japanese. You KNOW he had no desire to attend classes?? How??? You know he wanted to pi$$ people off? How? At the end of the day, you might even be right, but we just don't know because we haven't heard from him what he wants and why. Then again, we really haven't heard anything substantial from the LLLC either.
So why launch a personal attack and name calling without all the facts. I'm not thrilled with the OUTCOME of his ACTIONS, but that is different from whatever he is like as a person. I think all we can conclude at this point is that he is an enthusiast supporter of rights under the ADA and uses litigation as his main communication tool. See also post #442.

[Putt4Dough]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

I tend to be an optimist, so here it goes: Wouldn't it be better for everyone if we could leave the lawyers and the media out of all this. Get 3 plaintiffs, 3 representatives of the LLLC and 3 from the VCDDs, and 3 residents who have taken multiple courses at the LLLC together and have a civilized discussion and try to find a solution. IF the plaintiffs are still as reasonable as they portrayed themselves in the 2011 thread, and IF the VCS is still willing to provide reasonable accommodations, it could work.

That being said, I doubt any of the lawyers involved would ever consider letting their clients participate. But if this is truly about fair access to activities and what is best for the community, the WHOLE community, then screw the lawyers and do the right thing

I don't think you read the 2011 thread by DeafDeaf very carefully. He was asked point blank, very nicely, by various posters what exactly he was asking for. A reasonable person would have responded in a succint manner. Mr Schwarz is not a reasonable person as he dodged the respectful questions repeatedly. This is a man on a mission who cares not for others his actions may affect.

[Northerner52]

Wonder if there are similarities to the 60 minutes story last night?

What's a "drive-by lawsuit"? - CBS News

[dirtbanker]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

How do you know that? Are you personally close enough to him that you know his thought process, or do you just read minds in general? Do you know that he demanded interpreters for "all classes"? You state he is educated, and such a demand would be moronic---sort of like having a Japanese interpreter at every class when no one speaks Japanese. You KNOW he had no desire to attend classes?? How??? You know he wanted to pi$$ people off? How? At the end of the day, you might even be right, but we just don't know because we haven't heard from him what he wants and why. Then again, we really haven't heard anything substantial from the LLLC either.
So why launch a personal attack and name calling without all the facts. I'm not thrilled with the OUTCOME of his ACTIONS, but that is different from whatever he is like as a person. I think all we can conclude at this point is that he is an enthusiast supporter of rights under the ADA and uses litigation as his main communication tool. See also post #442.

Only a jackass would litigate to force the closing of the school. You don't like my opinion, that is noted.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[Putt4Dough]

Do you know that he demanded interpreters for "all classes"?

read the 2011 thread again, he was asked repeatedly what exactly he was asking for. He never answered directly to this question but kept harping that nothing short of paid professionals for any class at any time be made available. If your interpretation of his words is diferent explain.

[dirtbanker]

Originally Posted by Putt4Dough

Do you know that he demanded interpreters for "all classes"?

read the 2011 thread again, he was asked repeatedly what exactly he was asking for. He never answered directly to this question but kept harping that nothing short of paid professionals for any class at any time be made available. If your interpretation of his words is diferent explain.

Read this thread...posts 445, 446, and 447.

[PennBF]

This is a good post. Janet Tutt and the Developer should be responsible to bring this to closure. That is the Villages General Manager and the Developer who had been hiding it for 8 years from the Residents. Now is the time for them to "man up", take responsibility for this getting to this point and fixing it.

If people want to do something constructive to try to keep the LLC open: Instead of merely posting assorted thoughts, questions, and name-calling here (none of which will have any practical effect): Contact the plaintiffs, Janet Tutt (who represents the two CDD defendants and ought to be looking out for the welfare of all the residents, not just the interests of the Developer), and the Developer (who really controls the School and the LLC and whose motivation in shutting down the LLC is not at all clear). Ask, in their view, what it would take to settle the lawsuit and keep the LLC open and why more isn't being done to reach such a resolution. I am working along these lines myself, but more people contacting the relevant parties and Janet Tutt would be more effective.

FYI: An announcement on the College website reads: "The college has unfortunately been forced to close operations as of 12/31/16." There is no explanation as to exactly what "forced" the closure.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by dirtbanker

Only a jackass would litigate to force the closing of the school. You don't like my opinion, that is noted.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Putt4Dough

Do you know that he demanded interpreters for "all classes"?

read the 2011 thread again, he was asked repeatedly what exactly he was asking for. He never answered directly to this question but kept harping that nothing short of paid professionals for any class at any time be made available. If your interpretation of his words is diferent explain.

I read the 2011 thread and took it to mean he wanted professional, not volunteer ASL interpreters at any class attending by a deaf individual whose primary language is ASL. I may have given him too much credit but also wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. Everyone has piled on this guy for 46 pages.

Personally, my gut impression is that I agree with just about everything that has been said---I feel he is miserable and maybe all he has in life is his cause and his lawsuits. Based on the length of the proceedings, the law firm hired, and the decision to shut down the LLLC there probably is no reasoning with him. But unfortunately he has the right to sue, and given the vague wording of the ADA, the promulgation of regulations by the bureaucrats, and the rulings of ultra liberal judges, he could win.

But right now, we just don't know the details of either side. I have no idea if he is gloating over the shut down because now everyone else is deprived of this amenity, or if he is sickened by an unintended consequence. I'm sure his lawyers have told him to keep quiet, so we won't hear from him.

I don't know him, I certainly have no reason to defend him, especially since our upcoming class was cancelled. Just trying to be "fair and balanced"

[TexaninVA]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Agree. Let's do some (speculative) math:
If we get the plaintiffs to agree that no person who needs an interpreter takes no more than 3 classes/semester----which I doubt the majority of them would do anyway, then:

3 x 32==max 96 classes that need ASL. reduce this by classes with more than 1 deaf person and say 50% enrollments, so 50 classes. ASL interpreter: About $80/hr plus $30/hr travel time--assume max 1 hr each way so $220/class, average 2 hr class. Classes about 8 weeks = 220x8x50=$88,000. Since there were 18,000 scheduled to take classes next semester, = $4.80 fee each. Alternatively, $176,000/yr divided by 50,000 homes div by 12 = 30 cent/month additional amenity fee. Now, I don't have exact numbers but clearly the above estimate won't be off by more than a factor of 2, maybe 3, so make that 90 cents additional amenity fee. Clearly, the cost can easily be met----as long as the plaintiffs do not insist on "punitive damages".

Following the path you recommend would prove to be a major mistake. I think most will reject it.

The Lead Plaintiff has apparently refused, in multiple fora, to cite what it would take to “make him happy.” It’s not clear anything will ever make him happy in this world, and who knows about the next?

Yet, your solution attempts to placate him by buying him off, in a manner of speaking. Just raise the fees … it’s not that much for the LLCC alone. Presto, everyone’s happy, unicorns abound and all is well. Yes, it “sounds” reasonable at first blush.

However, I see zero evidence plaintiff has ever proven to be reasonable and as per other posters who have offered opinions and his past posts to support that.

In sum, your approach would a) set a terrible precedent, b) reward extremely destructive and selfish behavior, and c) simply open the doors, even incentivize him, to expand his sights towards the RLGs, Clubs, Square etc with open ended costs.

I’ve already posted what I think needs to be done to solve this, so I won’t restate it here. You can go back and reread if you wish. It’s becoming increasingly obvious no other solution will work.

[TNLAKEPANDA]

The attorney are out of State and they do this all over the country... it's all about the MONEY

[dirtbanker]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Personally, my gut impression is that I agree with just about everything that has been said---I feel he is miserable and maybe all he has in life is his cause and his lawsuits.

The guy could have easily gone to any of these retirement communities Senior Citizens Who Are Deaf

But, he would have nobody to pi$$ off there.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by TexaninVA

Following the path you recommend would prove to be a major mistake. I think most will reject it.

The Lead Plaintiff has apparently refused, in multiple fora, to cite what it would take to “make him happy.” It’s not clear anything will ever make him happy in this world, and who knows about the next?

Yet, your solution attempts to placate him by buying him off, in a manner of speaking. Just raise the fees … it’s not that much for the LLCC alone. Presto, everyone’s happy, unicorns abound and all is well. Yes, it “sounds” reasonable at first blush.

However, I see zero evidence Mr. Schwarz has ever proven to be reasonable in the least – quite the opposite. He’s basically destroyed the LLLC – an amazing feat for one person to do without penalty, at least so far.

In sum, your approach would a) set a terrible precedent, b) reward extremely destructive and selfish behavior, and c) simply open the doors, even incentivize him, to expand his sights towards the RLGs, Clubs, Square etc with open ended costs.

I’ve already posted what I think needs to be done to solve this, so I won’t restate it here. You can go back and reread if you wish. It’s becoming increasingly obvious no other solution will work.

I just posted some math to estimate a cost under a certain set of conditions. Don't shoot the messenger. This is not the cost of "buying him off", this is the cost of complying with federal law, as it might be interpreted by a judge. Personally, I don't think this guy deserves a penny, and neither do the bottom feeding scum sucking attorneys that he hired. But I didn't write the law, otherwise it would have been much better. I'm not the judge, but I can tell you my ruling if I was, and the plaintiffs would not like it. And I'm not sure a precedent can be set, since the RLGs and Rec centers are run completely differently than the arrangement between the VCS and the LLLC

[mysunshine1948]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

I do not see why not. But the CDD might be the best way to go. We would still have to accommodate the hearing impaired but maybe if people work together to solve this rather than suing one another we can get something back like the Lifelong Learning Center.

I agree, but after the 32 plaintiffs have been forced to move far away from here!!!!