[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

In what way?

Fire service funding today is $124 plus a portion of your property tax (about 1.65mils). Since property tax is based on taxable value which is different for your home and your neighbor's, you each pay a slightly different amount for fire service today.

(NOTE: 1.65mils covers both VPSD and SCFD. Under the IFD you should only be paying for the VPSD)

IFD funding is $124 + 0.75 mils on improved value + zero to 1 mil on taxable value.
- improved value will be slightly different for you and your neighbor
- taxable value will be slightly different for you and your neighbor
- you and your neighbor will pay different amounts but it will be a small difference.

IFD funding is capped at 0.75 mils for the "simplified" tier and 1 mil for the ad-valorem tier. There is a $10M cap on improved value but as Don points out earlier, residential properties won't touch that and only a handful of commercial properties do.


See also:
- Post #3 above
- IFD FAQ sheet on VPSD page
- tax estimator on VPSD page
- Florida bill allowing the IFD
- Referendum for the IFD
- League of Women Voters tax estimator at lwvtrifl.org

[jrref]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Now this is getting more confusing. What are the pros and cons of this "new" fire district?

Secondly, also if I read correctly, the numbers are not yet finalized, so we have no idea what general property tax might be needed to fund the remainder of Sumter County's fire services once TV is split off, which kind of sounds like a pig in a poke.

Don, please correct me if that assessment is in error.

This to me is the biggest unknown. Is there anyway to guarantee that Sumter County will reduce the millage rate if the new system is approved? I can see it now. Next year Sumter says we need "X" amount of money to support their services and we see little to no reduction.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

Fire service funding today is $124 plus a portion of your property tax (about 1.65mils). Since property tax is based on taxable value which is different for your home and your neighbor's, you each pay a slightly different amount for fire service today.

(NOTE: 1.65mils covers both VPSD and SCFD. Under the IFD you should only be paying for the VPSD)

IFD funding is $124 + 0.75 mils on improved value + zero to 1 mil on taxable value.
- improved value will be slightly different for you and your neighbor
- taxable value will be slightly different for you and your neighbor
- you and your neighbor will pay different amounts but it will be a small difference.

IFD funding is capped at 0.75 mils for the "simplified" tier and 1 mil for the ad-valorem tier. There is a $10M cap on improved value but as Don points out earlier, residential properties won't touch that and only a handful of commercial properties do.


See also:
- Post #3 above
- IFD FAQ sheet on VPSD page
- tax estimator on VPSD page
- Florida bill allowing the IFD
- Referendum for the IFD
- League of Women Voters tax estimator at lwvtrifl.org

Now I'm really confused. You stated I was wrong when I posted that I might be paying more for the same service as my neighbor, essentially a Robin Hood progressive tax, but then made the highlighted statement in response. Is it that a "small" difference IS fair????? How "small"???? If you go to Publix and the person ahead of you on line gets charged $1 for a can of soup, and then you get charged $2 for exactly the same can, is that "fair"?? After all, it's only "a small amount". And finally, would you vote for Publix to charge you the extra dollar???

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Now I'm really confused. You stated I was wrong when I posted that I might be paying more for the same service as my neighbor, essentially a Robin Hood progressive tax, but then made the highlighted statement in response. Is it that a "small" difference IS fair????? How "small"???? If you go to Publix and the person ahead of you on line gets charged $1 for a can of soup, and then you get charged $2 for exactly the same can, is that "fair"?? After all, it's only "a small amount". And finally, would you vote for Publix to charge you the extra dollar???

You and I may disagree on how much "vastly different" is.

A house with a $450,000 market value and homestead exemption that protected from the recent assessment increase will pay about $300 for the "simplified" tier and at most $300 for the ad-valorem tier for about $725 max.

A house with a $350,000 market value and no homestead exemption might pay something like $250 for the "simplified" tier and at most $270 for the ad-valorem for about $650 max.

To me, about $75 total, as a maximum, is not a "vastly different" amount for houses with a $100,000 difference in market value.

I'm sure you realize that property taxes are based on assessed value today. Is it "fair" that a more expensive home pays higher property taxes than a less expensive home? Is it "fair" that an expensive home with year-round residents might pay less property tax than the home of a snowbird due to the homestead exemptions even though the year-round resident uses more county resources?

More expensive homes pay more in property taxes, that's the way it works. The IFD does not alter this, it just moves the taxes to separate lines. EXCEPT, when you calculate the amount of your property tax that is used for fire protection today, the amount the VPSD would collect from you under the IFD is less.

As for Publix: I believe I *do* pay more at Publix than I pay at Winn-Dixie. I happily accept that because I like the service I get at Publix and I want Publix to stay around. There is no threat of a buyout at the moment, but I'm happy to do my part to ensure the threat doesn't arise in the future.

That statement is not necessarily true for the VPSD. The independence of the VPSD *was* threatened during the ad-hoc committee discussions about ambulance service. The independence of the VPSD *was* questioned during the candidate forums for primary election of the BoCC. Inflation is affecting everyone, including the county, and the fire service is a large part of the county budget. If funds become tight in 2024 I would like to know that consolidating the VPSD and SCFD for cost savings is off the table. The IFD ensures the threat of consolidation cannot arise in the future.

As for the numbers not yet being finalized... of course not. The numbers will be based on assessments and market values as calculated in June or July of next year. The numbers will also be based on the needs of the budget built by the yet-to-be-appointed Supervisors of the yet-to-be-approved IFD. I am basing my decision on the assumption that neither assessments nor the budget will change much. If I'm wrong about assessments I'm protected by the homestead exemptions; if I'm wrong about the budget I'm protected by the caps in the referendum.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

You and I may disagree on how much "vastly different" is.

A house with a $450,000 market value and homestead exemption that protected from the recent assessment increase will pay about $300 for the "simplified" tier and at most $300 for the ad-valorem tier for about $725 max.

A house with a $350,000 market value and no homestead exemption might pay something like $250 for the "simplified" tier and at most $270 for the ad-valorem for about $650 max.

To me, about $75 total, as a maximum, is not a "vastly different" amount for houses with a $100,000 difference in market value.

I'm sure you realize that property taxes are based on assessed value today. Is it "fair" that a more expensive home pays higher property taxes than a less expensive home? Is it "fair" that an expensive home with year-round residents might pay less property tax than the home of a snowbird due to the homestead exemptions even though the year-round resident uses more county resources?

More expensive homes pay more in property taxes, that's the way it works. The IFD does not alter this, it just moves the taxes to separate lines. EXCEPT, when you calculate the amount of your property tax that is used for fire protection today, the amount the VPSD would collect from you under the IFD is less.

As for Publix: I believe I *do* pay more at Publix than I pay at Winn-Dixie. I happily accept that because I like the service I get at Publix and I want Publix to stay around. There is no threat of a buyout at the moment, but I'm happy to do my part to ensure the threat doesn't arise in the future.

That statement is not necessarily true for the VPSD. The independence of the VPSD *was* threatened during the ad-hoc committee discussions about ambulance service. The independence of the VPSD *was* questioned during the candidate forums for primary election of the BoCC. Inflation is affecting everyone, including the county, and the fire service is a large part of the county budget. If funds become tight in 2024 I would like to know that consolidating the VPSD and SCFD for cost savings is off the table. The IFD ensures the threat of consolidation cannot arise in the future.

As for the numbers not yet being finalized... of course not. The numbers will be based on assessments and market values as calculated in June or July of next year. The numbers will also be based on the needs of the budget built by the yet-to-be-appointed Supervisors of the yet-to-be-approved IFD. I am basing my decision on the assumption that neither assessments nor the budget will change much. If I'm wrong about assessments I'm protected by the homestead exemptions; if I'm wrong about the budget I'm protected by the caps in the referendum.

Thank you. Just a couple points:

You may pay less for a can of soup at Winn Dixie, but that's not the analogy. You would probably pay less for fire services in Wyoming as well, but that's all apples and oranges. The analogy was paying more for exactly the same thing in exactly the same place and at exactly the same time.

I'm not familiar with the exact calculations, but you give the example of a 350K vs 450K home being $75, the difference being that part of the non ad valorem assessment based on home value. How does that math work if someone is lucky enough to own a home worth 1.5 million???? Does that boost the difference to $800???? Again, I'm just not a fan of so-called "progressive" taxation which is basically another Robin Hood scheme for redistribution. Why not just take the total cost of fire protection, divide it by the number of homes and charge an equal assessment on all, since all are "buying" the same protection?

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Thank you. Just a couple points:

You may pay less for a can of soup at Winn Dixie, but that's not the analogy. You would probably pay less for fire services in Wyoming as well, but that's all apples and oranges. The analogy was paying more for exactly the same thing in exactly the same place and at exactly the same time.

I'm not familiar with the exact calculations, but you give the example of a 350K vs 450K home being $75, the difference being that part of the non ad valorem assessment based on home value. How does that math work if someone is lucky enough to own a home worth 1.5 million???? Does that boost the difference to $800???? Again, I'm just not a fan of so-called "progressive" taxation which is basically another Robin Hood scheme for redistribution. Why not just take the total cost of fire protection, divide it by the number of homes and charge an equal assessment on all, since all are "buying" the same protection?

If you can give me the address of a $1.5M home I can work the calculations. I don't want to try to guess what the actual numbers might be.

Making it much more simple, we live in the "Robin Hood" system today, approval of the IFD does not change that. We can talk about how we would prefer to pay for fire protection but we have not been given that choice. We have a choice between paying Sumter County and letting them fund the VPSD or we can approve the IFD and fund the VPSD directly.

If we consider the $1.5M and $350K to be assessed values then the property tax paid today is $8,385 and $1,957. If fire protection is $124+1.65mils then the two are paying $2,599 and $702 today.

It does make some sense to charge more for fire protection of a larger home than for a smaller home. More floors, more rooms, more flammables all could require more resources and effort. Does it cost $75 more to protect a home that cost 30% more? I don't know.

A flat fee for fire protection? Great idea but.....
- I suspect it was politically unpopular to suggest raising the $124 to $700.
- The guy in the 1,000 sq ft home is not going to feel it's fair to be charged the same as the guy in the $1.5M home
- The guy in the $1.5M home is not going to feel it's fair to be charged the same as the owner of the Publix
- That is not the option being offered to us in this referendum


Just a small note: A flat rate is not a "progressive tax," it is generally referred to as a regressive tax. Both the current property tax and the proposed IFD tax are flat rate: everyone pays the same rate, you just pay more if you have a more expensive property. A progressive tax would be like our Federal Income Tax where the rate increases as your income increases.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

If you can give me the address of a $1.5M home I can work the calculations. I don't want to try to guess what the actual numbers might be.

Making it much more simple, we live in the "Robin Hood" system today, approval of the IFD does not change that. We can talk about how we would prefer to pay for fire protection but we have not been given that choice. We have a choice between paying Sumter County and letting them fund the VPSD or we can approve the IFD and fund the VPSD directly.

If we consider the $1.5M and $350K to be assessed values then the property tax paid today is $8,385 and $1,957. If fire protection is $124+1.65mils then the two are paying $2,599 and $702 today.

It does make some sense to charge more for fire protection of a larger home than for a smaller home. More floors, more rooms, more flammables all could require more resources and effort. Does it cost $75 more to protect a home that cost 30% more? I don't know.

A flat fee for fire protection? Great idea but.....
- I suspect it was politically unpopular to suggest raising the $124 to $700.
- The guy in the 1,000 sq ft home is not going to feel it's fair to be charged the same as the guy in the $1.5M home
- The guy in the $1.5M home is not going to feel it's fair to be charged the same as the owner of the Publix
- That is not the option being offered to us in this referendum


Just a small note: A flat rate is not a "progressive tax," it is generally referred to as a regressive tax. Both the current property tax and the proposed IFD tax are flat rate: everyone pays the same rate, you just pay more if you have a more expensive property. A progressive tax would be like our Federal Income Tax where the rate increases as your income increases.

I agree. I wasn’t questioning the reality of punishing the successful by giving their assets to the less successful, I just stated I don’t like it

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

You and I may disagree on how much "vastly different" is.

A house with a $450,000 market value and homestead exemption that protected from the recent assessment increase will pay about $300 for the "simplified" tier and at most $300 for the ad-valorem tier for about $725 max.

....

Originally Posted by Bill14564

If you can give me the address of a $1.5M home I can work the calculations. I don't want to try to guess what the actual numbers might be.

...

Found one. $1.6M with no homestead exemption (worst-case example). $880 in "simplified" tier and max of $1,200 in ad-valorem for a total of $2,200.

Roughly three times the taxes ($1,500) for a little more than three times the house. That does sound like a lot of money. But in perspective, the $450K house is paying something like $600 today while the $1.6M house is paying $2,100 today so the relative difference doesn't change at all.

NOTE: The IFD values represent the worst case. The more likely case, with a 0.1mil ad-valorem, brings the IFD values to $450 and $1,100.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

Found one. $1.6M with no homestead exemption (worst-case example). $880 in "simplified" tier and max of $1,200 in ad-valorem for a total of $2,200.

Roughly three times the taxes ($1,500) for a little more than three times the house. That does sound like a lot of money. But in perspective, the $450K house is paying something like $600 today while the $1.6M house is paying $2,100 today so the relative difference doesn't change at all.

NOTE: The IFD values represent the worst case. The more likely case, with a 0.1mil ad-valorem, brings the IFD values to $450 and $1,100.

Except.......the cost of maintaining emergency services and actually putting out a fire or responding to a medical emergency is maybe, maybe 2-5% higher for the larger home, yet they get to pay triple. Like I said, Robin Hood.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Except.......the cost of maintaining emergency services and actually putting out a fire or responding to a medical emergency is maybe, maybe 2-5% higher for the larger home, yet they get to pay triple. Like I said, Robin Hood.

But...
- Roughly the same ratio as today
- Likely cheaper than today
- Protects against undesirable changes

[Flyers999]

Unfortunately I live in the Marion County so I won't be able to vote for and have my own special IFD, with it's next-US President appointed five member board who can set policies and rates for the next four years. You Sumter County residents are so lucky.
Our area will continue to be covered by the same ole interlocal agreement that's not based on the proposed formula. The fact that we'll be paying less than Sumter County residents for the same services is little consolation.

[Daddymac]

The fire department staffers calculated the new fire assessment fee. Based on the results of this analysis, she determined that Instead of paying $124.00, they will be paying $516.00. Your fee will be different from others because all properties ARE NOT being assessed the same fee. The fee will be based on the MARKET VALUE of your house. A home in your neighborhood may be paying more than you or less than you, even though you will be receiving the SAME SERVICES.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by Daddymac

The fire department staffers calculated the new fire assessment fee. Based on the results of this analysis, she determined that Instead of paying $124.00, they will be paying $516.00. Your fee will be different from others because all properties ARE NOT being assessed the same fee. The fee will be based on the MARKET VALUE of your house. A home in your neighborhood may be paying more than you or less than you, even though you will be receiving the SAME SERVICES.

MISLEADING! See discussion above.

[Kenswing]

Originally Posted by Daddymac

The fire department staffers calculated the new fire assessment fee. Based on the results of this analysis, she determined that Instead of paying $124.00, they will be paying $516.00. Your fee will be different from others because all properties ARE NOT being assessed the same fee. The fee will be based on the MARKET VALUE of your house. A home in your neighborhood may be paying more than you or less than you, even though you will be receiving the SAME SERVICES.

I’m sorry but I have more trust in the credibility of Don Wiley. He’s a County Commissioner who instead of trying to protect his turf by keeping the Fire District under the county umbrella he’s provided his position as a Village’s resident. You have done nothing but regurgitate the same post over and over.

[oldtimes]

Originally Posted by Kenswing

I’m sorry but I have more trust in the credibility of Don Wiley. He’s a County Commissioner who instead of trying to protect his turf by keeping the Fire District under the county umbrella he’s provided his position as a Village’s resident. You have done nothing but regurgitate the same post over and over.

I agree. This definitely sounds like some kind of agenda.