[Laker14]

Originally Posted by Altavia

What's the definition/rating of an Advanced Beginner and Intermediate player?

there are no strict definitions. "Intermediate" is the largest demographic, and abilities vary widely within that demographic.

What's really important is to understand that Open Play will, by definition, put you on the court with people who may be way better than you, to the point that you become the player that prevents the others from playing to the caliber that would most suit them. That's OK to a point, but it works best if you are that person, to step away and let someone els in after it's become obvious. (not in the middle of a game, but in between games).

Also, you may find yourself the strongest player, by a lot, and in that circumstance, what works best is to modify your game so others can enjoy the game. You shouldn't demonstrate your superiority by driving balls hard at people who may not be able to defend their faces from being hit. A strong player, playing against much weaker players, can "ease up" a bit and return the ball in a way that challenges, but doesn't overwhelm, their opponents.

Even within the label of "Intermediate " some rec centers will have generally stronger, or weaker competition. If you are a solo player, it can be a challenge to find the pool of players that best fits your level.

I have seen a few men who like to dominate, so they play where they will be the strongest player, and take pride at driving hard balls constantly at weaker players who can barely get their paddles up to protect their faces. Not cool.

[Altavia]

Originally Posted by Laker14

there are no strict definitions. "Intermediate" is the largest demographic, and abilities vary widely within that demographic.

...

There are widely accepted guidelines.

https://usapickleball.org/wp-content...tions-2020.pdf

My assumption, rating/DUPR =

2.5 to 3.0 = Beginner
3.0 to 3.5 = Advanced Beginner
3.5 and higher = Intermediate

Seems strange Villages Rec doesn't reference the PCVG, DUPR ratings. Without those, players should do a self rating.

Less than 10% of 3.0 rated people receiving a PCVG skills rating in 2023 advanced to a 3.5 or higher. Some dropped back to 2.5. People tend to think they are better than reality :-)

[roob1]

2.5 and below: Beginner
3-3.5 Intermediate
4.0+ Advanced

Originally Posted by Altavia

There are widely accepted guidelines.

https://usapickleball.org/wp-content...tions-2020.pdf

My assumption, rating/DUPR =

2.5 to 3.0 = Beginner
3.0 to 3.5 = Advanced Beginner
3.5 and higher = Intermediate

Seems strange Villages Rec doesn't reference the PCVG, DUPR ratings. Without those, players should do a self rating.

Less than 10% of 3.0 rated people receiving a PCVG skills rating in 2023 advanced to a 3.5 or higher. Some dropped back to 2.5. People tend to think they are better than reality :-)

[Laker14]

Self-assessment is difficult for many reasons, one of them is that we don't all walk around with our ratings on our hats, so when you are winning or losing, you don't know for certain how good your opposition is.
Playing in rated events helps, but even that isn't a perfect system for figuring out how good you are.

[Bruce3055]

Originally Posted by Michael 61

I’m in a weekly 4-some of pickleball players who play each week during open play at the Rec Center. We’re on the courts at the crack of dawn and usually play until about 830 AM or so. Up until January, there has been no waiting to get onto a court. Now that we’re in snowbird season, a line starts forming around 745AM, which is understandable for this busy time of year. Our group is probably at an “advanced beginner” stage, but none of us are rated, as we are just out to have fun and get some exercise.

Question - while waiting our turn in line, a group of 3 in front of us who’s turn it was to go onto the court needed a 4th person, we allowed a single person behind us in line to go in front of our group of 4, so that we could wait and play together when a court became available for us. This infuriated a man further back in line who yelled out at us to split up and for one of us to join the group of 3 ahead of us. The man was pretty belligerent and wouldn’t let it drop, even after the fact. We just smiled at him and didn’t respond to his outburst. I noticed a group of 4 ladies playing together did the same thing, as they wanted to play as a group. If we were in error, we surely want to be corrected, and play by the rules, but I never remember in pickleball class this particular issue ever being brought up. Was hoping someone from the pickleball community could chime in whether what we did is permissible or not. Thank you for your replies.

Michael, Usually your comments are well liked and you have a loyal following, me included.

However this time, I think you were wrong on many fronts.

First pickleball is a great game where you can play anywhere by just showing up. You don’t need to bring a group with you and you meet a lot of nice folks playing with different players. And with the Villages – it’s the world’s most friendly place.

If you want to have an exclusive 4some from 7am to 8:30am at open court time you are in the wrong place. What if there were 6 exclusive 4somes? It would tend to destroy what makes the game great for other players that just show up to play.

It sounds like you don’t even break your group up when one other person shows up to play. Do you continue as a group or let others join you?

But if you insist upon only playing with your 4some, it would be a great idea to be able to divide the line by 4, so nobody realizes what you are doing to the integrity of the game where folks can just show up and meet great people (except your exclusive 4 some).

And then you said, you are an un-rated advanced beginner. I think the beginner pickleball classes recommend you play at beginner or advanced beginner times.

But even if you play at open court time, and hopefully not where 4.0 and above tend to play, you are still wrong if you are unwilling to play with others that may challenge your game or you challenge their game.

Folks all the time, create situations where they can play one game together. Ladies do it. Men do it. Couples do it. And that is perfectly fine. But I don’t believe they are as exclusive as your described group that wants to play all morning as an exclusive group.

And folks preparing for a tournament play continuously as a 2some to prepare for the tournament. And everyone appreciates that exclusivity. (But not an exclusive 4some).

Many players are friendly enough that they will play at least one game with anyone before they start counting to 4 to not play every game with somebody out of their league – either the other person is too good a player or not.

Now as far as the infuriated man. He was wrong – he should not yell at you. And you were right not to escalate the encounter. Wouldn’t it be nice if we had somebody watching over us like at recess when we were kids. None of this would have ever happened.

And finally, you asked if what you are doing to the game by having an exclusive 4som all morning is permissible. Technically yes, but I hope it doesn’t catch on and ruin the game for most of us who just like to play and meet new friends.

I hope, in the future, you allow others to play with you at open court times.

[Michael 61]

Originally Posted by Bruce3055

Michael, Usually your comments are well liked and you have a loyal following, me included.

However this time, I think you were wrong on many fronts.

First pickleball is a great game where you can play anywhere by just showing up. You don’t need to bring a group with you and you meet a lot of nice folks playing with different players. And with the Villages – it’s the world’s most friendly place.

If you want to have an exclusive 4some from 7am to 8:30am at open court time you are in the wrong place. What if there were 6 exclusive 4somes? It would tend to destroy what makes the game great for other players that just show up to play.

It sounds like you don’t even break your group up when one other person shows up to play. Do you continue as a group or let others join you?

But if you insist upon only playing with your 4some, it would be a great idea to be able to divide the line by 4, so nobody realizes what you are doing to the integrity of the game where folks can just show up and meet great people (except your exclusive 4 some).

And then you said, you are an un-rated advanced beginner. I think the beginner pickleball classes recommend you play at beginner or advanced beginner times.

But even if you play at open court time, and hopefully not where 4.0 and above tend to play, you are still wrong if you are unwilling to play with others that may challenge your game or you challenge their game.

Folks all the time, create situations where they can play one game together. Ladies do it. Men do it. Couples do it. And that is perfectly fine. But I don’t believe they are as exclusive as your described group that wants to play all morning as an exclusive group.

And folks preparing for a tournament play continuously as a 2some to prepare for the tournament. And everyone appreciates that exclusivity. (But not an exclusive 4some).

Many players are friendly enough that they will play at least one game with anyone before they start counting to 4 to not play every game with somebody out of their league – either the other person is too good a player or not.

Now as far as the infuriated man. He was wrong – he should not yell at you. And you were right not to escalate the encounter. Wouldn’t it be nice if we had somebody watching over us like at recess when we were kids. None of this would have ever happened.

And finally, you asked if what you are doing to the game by having an exclusive 4som all morning is permissible. Technically yes, but I hope it doesn’t catch on and ruin the game for most of us who just like to play and meet new friends.

I hope, in the future, you allow others to play with you at open court times.

Bruce, thank you for your well-thought out reply - I sure appreciate your insight, as I’m still getting the hang of how pickleball works, and trust me, I don’t want to intentionally offend anyone, and very willing to change anything I’ve done wrong, thus the reason for my initial post.

From this last summer through Christmas, the 4 of us would show up at the courts the first thing once a week, and were always the only one’s there for the first 30-45 minutes. Then other 4-somes would show up and take their places on the other courts. I honestly don’t ever remember seeing a “single” player show up, and a line never, ever formed. Everyone came as a “group of 4”. The line is some thing that just started a few weeks ago. Our group was taking a cue from other groups of 4, who also stayed together in line and played, so it appears this is wide-spread (but again if it is wrong, I don’t want to do something just because everyone else does).

Honestly, I am getting mixed feedback from so many people, and it appears there are no “set rules” on this. I was thinking of talking to the person at the rec center next week to get their input.

I really just want to have fun, and not take this too seriously, and “get along’ with as many people as I can. I’m usually willing to yield to someone else, for the sake of avoiding unnecessary conflict and drama.

Luckily, in a few months, this probably won’t be an issue again for awhile, as the courts will return to being mostly empty that early in the morning.

Thanks again for your input. Retirement if great!

[Laker14]

Originally Posted by Bruce3055

Michael, Usually your comments are well liked and you have a loyal following, me included.

However this time, I think you were wrong on many fronts.

First pickleball is a great game where you can play anywhere by just showing up. You don’t need to bring a group with you and you meet a lot of nice folks playing with different players. And with the Villages – it’s the world’s most friendly place.

If you want to have an exclusive 4some from 7am to 8:30am at open court time you are in the wrong place. What if there were 6 exclusive 4somes? It would tend to destroy what makes the game great for other players that just show up to play.

It sounds like you don’t even break your group up when one other person shows up to play. Do you continue as a group or let others join you?

But if you insist upon only playing with your 4some, it would be a great idea to be able to divide the line by 4, so nobody realizes what you are doing to the integrity of the game where folks can just show up and meet great people (except your exclusive 4 some).

And then you said, you are an un-rated advanced beginner. I think the beginner pickleball classes recommend you play at beginner or advanced beginner times.

But even if you play at open court time, and hopefully not where 4.0 and above tend to play, you are still wrong if you are unwilling to play with others that may challenge your game or you challenge their game.

Folks all the time, create situations where they can play one game together. Ladies do it. Men do it. Couples do it. And that is perfectly fine. But I don’t believe they are as exclusive as your described group that wants to play all morning as an exclusive group.

And folks preparing for a tournament play continuously as a 2some to prepare for the tournament. And everyone appreciates that exclusivity. (But not an exclusive 4some).

Many players are friendly enough that they will play at least one game with anyone before they start counting to 4 to not play every game with somebody out of their league – either the other person is too good a player or not.

Now as far as the infuriated man. He was wrong – he should not yell at you. And you were right not to escalate the encounter. Wouldn’t it be nice if we had somebody watching over us like at recess when we were kids. None of this would have ever happened.

And finally, you asked if what you are doing to the game by having an exclusive 4som all morning is permissible. Technically yes, but I hope it doesn’t catch on and ruin the game for most of us who just like to play and meet new friends.

I hope, in the future, you allow others to play with you at open court times.

Some good points there, BUT....OP is not "wrong" to do it the way his group does it. It may not fit YOUR agenda, but that doesn't make it wrong.

I agree that the OP and his group might well have a richer experience by branching out and playing with other players. The "skill" designations generally apply from 10AM to noon. Other Open Play times are not skill designated, for the most part. If you do show up where the 4.0s play, they may well appreciate you having your own group so they can play their game with their similarly skilled players. It can get awkward for everybody when the single player shows up at a court generally populated by much stronger players. If you have your own group you should be able to grab a court as 4 players when a game finishes, if courts are in short supply.

If the players call for "TWO" and don't relinquish a court to a waiting 4-some they are in the wrong. I wouldn't be shocked if this happens, though.

As far as checking with the person at the desk of the rec center, what they tell you is not gospel, They will very likely pass on their opinion of how things should work as "law". It isn't necessarily backed up with knowledge or authority.

[npwalters]

Originally Posted by Topspinmo

Depends on what rec center, some only two leave court while winners play 2 games in row before they get back in line. Some play rally score but most don’t.

Really proper etiquette is get back in line and play your turn. What happens some don’t want play with lower level players cause they think it will ruin their game. Which IMO not that good if the can’t deal with lower skilled player’s. And there are just snobs that want only play with their little group at open times. Which they have open play and group reserved times.

Huumm, I've played at quite a few of the courts in TV and all of them use 4 off and four on during open play. I also agree that the OP did nothing wrong.

[npwalters]

Originally Posted by Pugchief

In most cases, open play is designated to a specific ability. Clearly posted on the board adjacent to the courts and also on The Villages app. In some cases, it's not specified, but most rec centers have a "reputation" for level of play. You can ask one of the folks in line, or get into a game and find out the hard way.

Actually no court is designated for a specific ability before 10 am (open play). It is open to anyone. There are times after open play that are designated for a specific skill level.

[npwalters]

Originally Posted by Altavia

What's the definition/rating of an Advanced Beginner and Intermediate player?

You can go to USA Pickleball and there is a description of the expected skills for each level of player. They use a numerical rating system but generally speaking a 2.0 is a beginner and a 2.5 is an advanced beginner. There is a lot of flex in that generalization.

[Pugchief]

Originally Posted by npwalters

Actually no court is designated for a specific ability before 10 am (open play). It is open to anyone. There are times after open play that are designated for a specific skill level.

While this is technically true, most of the rec centers have "reputations" for level of play. What this really comes down to is: Why would you want to play with people who are not near your ability, up or down, and spoil the game for everyone? It's more fun to play with people at your same level. And it is not the responsibility of better players to dumb-down their game to accommodate weaker players during open play. That's for social pickleball groups.

[Bruce3055]

Originally Posted by Michael 61

I’m in a weekly 4-some of pickleball players who play each week during open play at the Rec Center. We’re on the courts at the crack of dawn and usually play until about 830 AM or so. Up until January, there has been no waiting to get onto a court. Now that we’re in snowbird season, a line starts forming around 745AM, which is understandable for this busy time of year. Our group is probably at an “advanced beginner” stage, but none of us are rated, as we are just out to have fun and get some exercise.

Question - while waiting our turn in line, a group of 3 in front of us who’s turn it was to go onto the court needed a 4th person, we allowed a single person behind us in line to go in front of our group of 4, so that we could wait and play together when a court became available for us. This infuriated a man further back in line who yelled out at us to split up and for one of us to join the group of 3 ahead of us. The man was pretty belligerent and wouldn’t let it drop, even after the fact. We just smiled at him and didn’t respond to his outburst. I noticed a group of 4 ladies playing together did the same thing, as they wanted to play as a group. If we were in error, we surely want to be corrected, and play by the rules, but I never remember in pickleball class this particular issue ever being brought up. Was hoping someone from the pickleball community could chime in whether what we did is permissible or not. Thank you for your replies.

Please check your private messages

[npwalters]

Originally Posted by Pugchief

While this is technically true, most of the rec centers have "reputations" for level of play. What this really comes down to is: Why would you want to play with people who are not near your ability, up or down, and spoil the game for everyone? It's more fun to play with people at your same level. And it is not the responsibility of better players to dumb-down their game to accommodate weaker players during open play. That's for social pickleball groups.

I agree with everything you said in this post. It is not what you said in your original post. Thanks for clarifying.

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by Bruce3055

Michael, Usually your comments are well liked and you have a loyal following, me included.

However this time, I think you were wrong on many fronts.

First pickleball is a great game where you can play anywhere by just showing up. You don’t need to bring a group with you and you meet a lot of nice folks playing with different players. And with the Villages – it’s the world’s most friendly place.

If you want to have an exclusive 4some from 7am to 8:30am at open court time you are in the wrong place. What if there were 6 exclusive 4somes? It would tend to destroy what makes the game great for other players that just show up to play.

It sounds like you don’t even break your group up when one other person shows up to play. Do you continue as a group or let others join you?

But if you insist upon only playing with your 4some, it would be a great idea to be able to divide the line by 4, so nobody realizes what you are doing to the integrity of the game where folks can just show up and meet great people (except your exclusive 4 some).

And then you said, you are an un-rated advanced beginner. I think the beginner pickleball classes recommend you play at beginner or advanced beginner times.

But even if you play at open court time, and hopefully not where 4.0 and above tend to play, you are still wrong if you are unwilling to play with others that may challenge your game or you challenge their game.

Folks all the time, create situations where they can play one game together. Ladies do it. Men do it. Couples do it. And that is perfectly fine. But I don’t believe they are as exclusive as your described group that wants to play all morning as an exclusive group.

And folks preparing for a tournament play continuously as a 2some to prepare for the tournament. And everyone appreciates that exclusivity. (But not an exclusive 4some).

Many players are friendly enough that they will play at least one game with anyone before they start counting to 4 to not play every game with somebody out of their league – either the other person is too good a player or not.

Now as far as the infuriated man. He was wrong – he should not yell at you. And you were right not to escalate the encounter. Wouldn’t it be nice if we had somebody watching over us like at recess when we were kids. None of this would have ever happened.

And finally, you asked if what you are doing to the game by having an exclusive 4som all morning is permissible. Technically yes, but I hope it doesn’t catch on and ruin the game for most of us who just like to play and meet new friends.

I hope, in the future, you allow others to play with you at open court times.

I totally agree with you, Bruce, and with the way you presented your opinion. Since 2011, when Pickleball 101, 102, and 103 was offered, that was the idea. You went to open play, lined up, and played with whoever when it was your turn. If we wanted to play exclusively with a certain group of people, we formed a club and got a court reservation. These are only available from noon on in the winter months, and from ten on in the summer.
Back then, there used to be more designated levels in the morning hours. Different courts had different levels, and you went to the level you felt suited to. Meeting other people by playing with them often led to forming groups to play at reserved times.
I miss the way it used to be. Nobody back then stayed in their own little group during open play. You took the court when it was your turn, with whomever was next in line.
We stopped playing in open play because the 7 o'clockers frequently wouldn't give up the court to us lesser players and would change around in line so as to only play with each other. Frequently their games were so long that we lesser beings were standing in line for too long. Not worth it.But we were able to find enough like players to form a group and get a court reservation.

[Laker14]

Originally Posted by CFrance

I totally agree with you, Bruce, and with the way you presented your opinion. Since 2011, when Pickleball 101, 102, and 103 was offered, that was the idea. You went to open play, lined up, and played with whoever when it was your turn. If we wanted to play exclusively with a certain group of people, we formed a club and got a court reservation. These are only available from noon on in the winter months, and from ten on in the summer.
Back then, there used to be more designated levels in the morning hours. Different courts had different levels, and you went to the level you felt suited to. Meeting other people by playing with them often led to forming groups to play at reserved times.
I miss the way it used to be. Nobody back then stayed in their own little group during open play. You took the court when it was your turn, with whomever was next in line.
We stopped playing in open play because the 7 o'clockers frequently wouldn't give up the court to us lesser players and would change around in line so as to only play with each other. Frequently their games were so long that we lesser beings were standing in line for too long. Not worth it.But we were able to find enough like players to form a group and get a court reservation.

First of all, not giving up the court when your game is over, played to 11, and people are waiting, is wrong. We all agree on that.

Beyond that what you describe is nothing more than different people wanting different things during their pickleball play. You and your chums want to mix it up, meet other people etc. The other players you describe want something different. They want to play close competitive PB with similarly skilled players.

Why do you think their games "were so long"? It's because their points are long, and that is a product of not only some reasonable degree of skill, but compatibility of skill level. But if you put one 3.0 player in that group of 4.0 or 4.5 players, that all goes away because every time the ball goes to the 3.0 player with any level of difficulty, more often than not they are either unable to return the ball, or they return a set-up high ball that gets their partner a plastic sandwich. NOT FUN!

Those "7 O'Clockers" got up early just like you did, and they have a right to have an enjoyable time on the courts for which they pay an amenity fee, just as you do.

There may be many reasons why the afternoon reservation time doesn't work for them. For one thing you have to reserve the same time, same number of courts for the exact same time slot, EACH AND EVERY WEEK. That may be great for a group of 20, but for a group of 4, or 6, or 7, who maybe can't make every week, it is an inefficient use of the courts. Many of those courts get reserved and then don't get used.

Also, not everyone who lives in TV is retired. Many of the earlybirds are trying to get a few decent games in before work, or some other obligation, and don't have the afternoon available to do so.

It sounds like you and your like-minded friends found a solution that works for you, and by leaving the "7 O'Oclockers" to their own, you allowed them to do what works for them, so everyone should be happy.

That sounds like a good thing to me.

One other point to make: You don't know that those "7 O'Clockers" don't spend some other hours of the week playing just the way you describe. Many good players who like to play a few hours of close, and highly skilled, PB also have friends and/or spouses who aren't as skilled, and will play a more social "mix and match" game at other times. I am among them, playing with players who aren't as good, softening my game up, trying to hit the ball with some degree of challenge, yet not overwhelming or smacking anybody with the ball. Sometimes I miss a shot trying to ease up, that I wouldn't have missed if I'd been more competitively minded. But in this type of play, I don't mind that.

So when you look at those players keeping to themselves, let them have their fun. You go have your fun, playing with your like-minded players. Just let them have their fun, too.