[MandoMan]

Originally Posted by Pachine58

Hi, I am new homeowner in the historic side of villages. I bought a house that was built 4 years ago.

Yesterday the man who owned property next door came over to tell me my survey stakes were wrong and he owned the land. He informed me he pulled them out and removed my flags for my dog fence. Went on to tell me Lake county called him to say when house was built the villages made a mistake on property line and he owned the property..( WTH).

I looked up on county site for info and found nothing. I just paid for a survey 3 months ago which included maps.

What can I do? I’m ****ed he took my stakes and destroyed my flags. Help!

Here is the relevant Florida statute:
“ 177.121 Misdemeanor to molest monument or deface or destroy map or plat.—It is a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083, for any person to molest any monuments established according to this part or to deface or destroy any map or plat placed on public record.”

What is meant by a monument in this law?
Section 177.031, Definitions:
“ 13) “P.C.P.” means permanent control point and shall be considered a reference monument.
(a) “P.C.P.s” set in impervious surfaces must:
1. Be composed of a metal marker with a point of reference.
2. Have a metal cap or disk bearing either the Florida registration number of the professional surveyor and mapper in responsible charge or the certificate of authorization number of the legal entity, which number shall be preceded by LS or LB as applicable and the letters “P.C.P.”
(b) “P.C.P.s” set in pervious surfaces must:
1. Consist of a metal rod having a minimum length of 18 inches and a minimum cross-section area of material of 0.2 square inches. In certain materials, encasement in concrete is optional for stability of the rod. When used, the concrete shall have a minimum cross-section area of 12.25 square inches and be a minimum of 24 inches long.
2. Be identified with a durable marker or cap with the point of reference marked thereon bearing either the Florida registration number of the professional surveyor and mapper in responsible charge or the certificate of authorization number of the legal entity, which number shall be preceded by LS or LB as applicable and the letters “P.C.P.”
(c) “P.C.P.s” must be detectable with conventional instruments for locating ferrous or magnetic objects.”

“ 15) “P.R.M.” means a permanent reference monument which must:
(a) Consist of a metal rod having a minimum length of 18 inches and a minimum cross-section area of material of 0.2 square inches. In certain materials, encasement in concrete is optional for stability of the rod. When used, the concrete shall have a minimum cross-section area of 12.25 square inches and be a minimum of 24 inches long.
(b) Be identified with a durable marker or cap with the point of reference marked thereon bearing either the Florida registration number of the professional surveyor and mapper in responsible charge or the certificate of authorization number of the legal entity, which number shall be preceded by LS or LB as applicable and the letters “P.R.M.”
(c) Be detectable with conventional instruments for locating ferrous or magnetic objects.”

These quotes are from Florida Statutes Chapter 177. Chapter 177 - 2012 Florida Statutes - The Florida Senate

I don’t think it is illegal to pull up wooden surveying stakes with ribbons on them used as temporary references, but it is definitely illegal to remove or move a Permanent Control Point or a Permanent Reference Monument. I would suggest that you call Law Enforcement, get through to the chief, and ask what you should do if a permanent marker has in fact been moved. These permanent reference markers are indeed the basis of civilized society, or one of them. The ancient Sumerian law code, written way before the Bible, includes laws about moving property corner stones. As I recall, the punishment was death. There are also laws in the Bible against doing that.

If a permanent marker was indeed moved, a full survey isn’t necessary. The company just looks at the survey map, finds the permanent markers on both sides, measures, and puts in a new one. But the police should insist that your neighbor agree to pay for this or be arrested for a misdemeanor.

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by NoMo50

Not so. Title insurance is not required for the property owner. An owner's policy is optional, but a lender's policy is typically required if there is a mortgage on the property. This will be a requirement set forth by the lender, not by statute.

Also, a title policy merely warranties clear title to the property involved. It does not warrant the veracity of an individual survey.

Correct, an owner's title insurance policy is optional. But, even if you had a policy, I don't think it would cover a property line dispute like this. Title insurance guarantees a clear title, which is not really at issue in this situation.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

Correct, an owner's title insurance policy is optional. But, even if you had a policy, I don't think it would cover a property line dispute like this. Title insurance guarantees a clear title, which is not really at issue in this situation.

Property owners with a border disagreement due to survey errors can protect themselves with a very good title insurance. Title insurance helps protecting defects in the claim that may be because of poor surveying.

[Mrfriendly]

I’m in the title insurance business in NJ. We insure surveys of properties. Any discrepancy with your neighbor should be directed to your settlement company and surveyor for a possible claim. Try and stay cool with your neighbor as you would also like to see his survey.

Originally Posted by Pachine58

Hi, I am new homeowner in the historic side of villages. I bought a house that was built 4 years ago.

Yesterday the man who owned property next door came over to tell me my survey stakes were wrong and he owned the land. He informed me he pulled them out and removed my flags for my dog fence. Went on to tell me Lake county called him to say when house was built the villages made a mistake on property line and he owned the property..( WTH).

I looked up on county site for info and found nothing. I just paid for a survey 3 months ago which included maps.

What can I do? I’m ****ed he took my stakes and destroyed my flags. Help!

[BEETHOVENMIKEY]

We moved into the Villas LaCresenta a little over a year ago and found property lines run smack dab In-between the Villas, yet you are responsible for care of your neighbors property.
Being new, we started asking neighbors and found there were different interpretations of property rights and responsibilities in caring for greenery on adjoining property.
Reading through the Covenants and it says nothing, only referring to common property and right-of-ways.
I called TV-CDD and was transferred to appropriate department. She stated how the property lines are calculated and who's responsible for what. I asked for it in writing and she told me that there is nothing in writing, and they won't.
So... good luck

[Kelevision]

Originally Posted by Thaxxx

"Florida's friendliest home town"
He must be from the NE.

[Gizemo33]

Contact the sheriff and get a written report of in incident. If necessary go the lady lake courthouse and make them aware of the confusion and ask for their guidance.

Welcome to the villages America’s friendliest hometown, yeah really.

[Orvil]

As a retired appraiser and buyer of many homes in a number of different states, let me opine on the situation.

It sucks to be sued by your neighbor. I've been through that. It really sucks and no one wins. Usually, it's a standoff. Only the lawyers win.

Developers are famous for screwing up the boundaries of a subdivision. They put fences and driveways in willy nilly with no thought of correct boundaries. This makes homeowners think something is theirs when it is not. And, a reasonable person looking at the parcel would assume the same thing as the poor homeowner. For some reason, probably being cheap, buyers don't order a survey at purchase. They could stop a lot of problems if they did.

I always order an updated survey when I buy a new home. I also pay to have the boundaries marked with stakes. This homeowner did the correct thing. Good for you.

Someone has been nice enough to point out the applicable Florida law. It is a misdemeanor to move the survey stakes. The owner/person who paid for it can remove them, but others may not.

Your neighbor is a piece of work. Obviously, social skills are lacking. You are going to have to find a way to get along with them.

My question for the new owner is did you file your new survey with the transfer of deed? If not, take a certified copy of the survey to the court house. As the clerk of court to attach the survey to the deed. There will be a fee of a few dollars for this filing. This is the legal record.

Call the surveyor and tell them what has happened. It won't be the first time they have encountered this situation. Ask for a referral to a real estate attorney. They will know a good one. Arrange a consultation with the attorney. Bring your deed, survey and pictures of the disputed area. A letter from the attorney to the neighbor advising them of the law and that the survey was certified will probably put a stop to things.

The surveyor needs to return to put the stakes back up. Ask them to use metal pipe with marking tape this time to mark the corners. Temporary wooden stakes are too easy to remove. Pipe requires a lot of effort.

Then, tell the geezer that these are the property lines. Get over it. If he wants to make an issue of it, he needs to pay for his own survey or shut up. It's time for him to put up or shut up.

Depending on the letter from the attorney, you may need to inform him that if he bothers your family, dog or property you will promptly call the police and have him arrested for menacing. If his less than neighborly behavior escalates, ask for a restraining order.

I have an old neighbor with more money than God. She has had her property surveyed 5 times. Three different surveyors with the same result. She never bothered me because I had my property surveyed when I purchased. Her other neighbors weren't so lucky. With GPS surveyors don't make big mistakes.

Good luck. It sucks to have sucky neighbors.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Couple of things MIGHT be happening, but the OP won't know until he communicates with his neighbor.

1. Neighbor said they got a CALL from Lake county saying the survey was wrong and the property is his? This is suspicious. Do counties do that here? Don't they always put this stuff in writing?

1a. Is it possible that the neighbor was being scammed by someone looking to make money with a new survey? Is it possible the guy made it up because he didn't like the stakes and just wanted an excuse to take them out himself?

2. Is it possible he did get something in writing, and forgot to mention that/thought it was junk mail and never actually opened it?

2a. That's something the neighbor would need to check on himself.

3. Regardless of WHY he took the stakes out, they were your stakes. Even if it turns out they were on his property, you didn't place them there maliciously, it was in error. That doesn't give him the right to remove it without at least giving you the opportunity to remove it yourself. EVEN if he is right, and even if that really is his property.

Possible solution:

Go to your neighbor, reach out to him. Tell him that now that the stakes are gone, you need to know where to put them back, and your survey company is the one who put them there in the first place, so now you'll need to have him tell you who he spoke with at the County office, so you can follow up and get it straightened out.

He'll either a) give you the information or b) not give you the information.

If he gives it to you, then you'll know who to talk to. If he doesn't, you'll probably end up being transferred a few more times before you get answers.

You want to get in touch with Lake county and find out what THEY say about this. And you want the answer in writing. Whether he's right or you're right, you want that information in writing.

Currently, the only thing the two neighbors combined have, in writing, is the survey which shows the OP is correct. It's technically up to the neighbor to PROVE that that survey is wrong, but as a gesture, you could just make some phone calls and see what you can find out BEFORE you become confrontational.

If there was no such phone call from the county to the neighbor, then get a lawyer.

[Walker1990]

Did you submit application to the Cdd for the fence. If so, go back to them

[banjobob]

One would assume the surveyor was correct , report the neighbor and replace the stakes as close as remembered and tell neighbor to resurvey or buzz off

[airstreamingypsy]

Whoa, what a mess. Your neighbor is clearly off the rails..... he sounds like he's either crazy or has dementia. Either way, it could be a dangerous situation. Your problem is way more serious that the property line. It sounds like the voices in his head told him the property is his.

[Spalumbos62]

Originally Posted by Pachine58

Yes invisible fence just installed and was training the dogs. That’s why flags

Very interesting because usually with an invisible fence those trsining flags are placed a few feet inside the actual property line. So if this neighbor pulled them out from there..well he really has a bee in his bonnet.
What kind of dogs?

[KRMACK55]

Originally Posted by patfla06

He had absolutely no right to pull up your survey stakes.
Sounds like he’s going to be a joy to live next door to.

He’s probably from the NE !! They’re very territorial ! He should get a specialist attorney and get a legal resolution. When the new owner of my house puts in his pool on my oversized lot who knows what he encounters?

[KRMACK55]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Hopefully he didn't destroy the wire for the invisible fence

Of course he will ! That’s why the person needs a lawyer and get a hearing. Once the house I sold you’re on your own.