[Russ_Boston]

Originally Posted by EdVinMass

Tony, you are correct. The basic design of the multi-lane roundabout creates numerous situations where two vehicles that have followed roundabout protocol will end up having to cross paths and that's where accidents or near misses and angered exchanges occur.

You are simply dead wrong Ed. If protocol (let's call it the law) is followed then there are no legal near misses (or hits). It simply can't happen when the rules are followed.

If you think you are correct then please give me a scenario where both drivers do the correct thing but bang into each other. If I'm wrong I'll gladly apologize.

It can, and does, happen in TV all the time but someone didn't understand the protocol.

[EdV]

Russ,

Picture this. Vehicle A is traveling from the north to the south and wants to go east and enters the roundabout from the left lane and gets into the inner lane (which he is allowed to do). Vehicle B is travelling straight through from south to north but enters from the right hand lane into the outer lane (which he is allowed to do) just as vehicle A is going by in the inner lane. Now as they approach the east exit with vehicle B slightly behind vehicle A, A has to cut across B’s lane (who is in A’s blind spot) to make the exit.

[BarbinNH]

They're gonna crash because vehicle B didn't yield. It doesn't matter that vehicle A is in the inside lane. Vehicle B is supposed to yield to all traffic, in both lanes. I think this part, not yielding to both lanes, is what gets people in trouble.

Also, if you look at the link that Russ provided, it says at least twice (and one of those times in red) that you are not supposed to change lanes while in the roundabout. So, logically, you must be able to exit from the inside lane.

[Russ_Boston]

Originally Posted by BarbinNH

They're gonna crash because vehicle B didn't yield. It doesn't matter that vehicle A is in the inside lane. Vehicle B is supposed to yield to all traffic, in both lanes. I think this part, not yielding to both lanes, is what gets people in trouble.

Also, if you look at the link that Russ provided, it says at least twice (and one of those times in red) that you are not supposed to change lanes while in the roundabout. So, logically, you must be able to exit from the inside lane.

Exactly Barb - I explained this in my answer earlier to Tony. I think this is the biggest confusion that people have that didn't deal with roundabouts in their earlier life. Yield in a rotary is not the same as yield elsewhere. Most of the time yield (realistically not legally) means: wait until the car has gone by you (as in Ed's story).

BUT

You are not supposed to even enter the rotary when other traffic is already IN the rotary. Now granted most people will enter if the other side has just entered. But as I mentioned that wouldn't be an issue since they are far enough apart to begin with even if one does a 3/4 or full turn.

It comes down to this: the rules of the road are made so that when an accident happens - at least ONE party is wrong. Both parties can be wrong but at least one person did something legally wrong that help cause the accident.

[downeaster]

Originally Posted by Russ_Boston

You are simply dead wrong Ed. If protocol (let's call it the law) is followed then there are no legal near misses (or hits). It simply can't happen when the rules are followed.

If you think you are correct then please give me a scenario where both drivers do the correct thing but bang into each other. If I'm wrong I'll gladly apologize.

It can, and does, happen in TV all the time but someone didn't understand the protocol.

You are absolutely right, Russ. People just don't take time to study the rules. If they take some time to do so it should make sense to them.

Here's an example. Car A proceeding south on Buena Vista intending to continue south after the roundabout correctly moves to the left lane. He enters the roundabout remaining in the left lane. Entering at the same time is car B in the right lane however he intends to do a 270 and exit onto El Camino Real. Car A stays in left lane and starts to exit and continue on Buena remaining in the left lane. Meanwhile car B stays in right lane and cuts in front of Car A. CAR B HAS IMPROPERLY CHANGED LANES CUTTING CAR A OFF.
Visualizing traffic flow one can see a smooth flow if people enter and exit properly.

[EdV]

The rules (as shown in the link that Russ provided) do not say that vehicle B is supposed to yield to all traffic. It only says that all vehicles entering the roundabout must yield to vehicles already in the roundabout. In my scenario, both vehicles are already in the roundabout as they approach the eastern exit. And the rules only say that “As you exit the roundabout, be aware of vehicles traveling on the outside of the circulatory roadway that may continue to circulate around the roundabout” but doesn’t state specifically which vehicle has the right of way. That's where problems occur.

Secondly, it is correct in stating that vehicle A is not supposed to change lanes while in the roundabout. So that in itself sets up the problem where vehicle A must cross over vehicle B’s lane in order to make the exit and remain in the left lane as it is supposed to.

I’m not trying to make excuses for smart courteous driving, just trying to say that this problem with multi-lane roundabouts is not quite as simple as some would have you believe.

[Russ_Boston]

Originally Posted by EdVinMass

And the rules only say that “As you exit the roundabout, be aware of vehicles traveling on the outside of the circulatory roadway that may continue to circulate around the roundabout” but doesn’t state specifically which vehicle has the right of way. That's where problems occur.

I agree with that Ed. I took that statement as meaning 'be careful when exiting'

Specifically it states: "Move up to the entrance line and wait for a gap in
traffic. DO NOT ENTER next to a vehicle in the roundabout, as that vehicle may be exiting at the next exit."

If people followed this you couldn't be close enough to an exiting vehicle to crash.

[EdV]

Originally Posted by Russ_Boston

....Specifically it states: "Move up to the entrance line and wait for a gap in traffic. DO NOT ENTER next to a vehicle in the roundabout, as that vehicle may be exiting at the next exit."

If people followed this you couldn't be close enough to an exiting vehicle to crash.

So as vehicle B approaches the roundabout and it has a clear outer lane, it should wait, because vehicle A in the inner lane might try to exit in front of you further in the roundabout. Give me a break.

As I said before, these multi-lane roundabouts are not as simple as one would have them believe.

My rules for negotiating a multi-lane roundabout are simple:

1. Assume that it's a free for all
2. Your job is to get through it without having an accident

[downeaster]

[QUOTE=EdVinMass;209684]
Secondly, it is correct in stating that vehicle A is not supposed to change lanes while in the roundabout. So that in itself sets up the problem where vehicle A must cross over vehicle B’s lane in order to make the exit and remain in the left lane as it is supposed to.

QUOTE]

Vehicle A, in my example, is not changing lanes. He is remaining in the left lane as he is supposed to. Vehicle B is, in fact, changing lanes and crossing in front of vehicle A. Vehicle B, by virtue of being in the right lane at that point, should be expected to turn onto Buena and stay in that lane.
Take a closer look at the pamphlet furnished by the SO.

[billethkid]

realities as well as hypothetical scenarios to promote understanding. The unfortunate reality is that tomorrow morning as we approach the roundabouts nothing will have changed. There will be those of us who will follow the rules as best we know and we will yield and we will be courteous. However please be careful as there will still be those who are in a hurry....do not care about the rules....who do not yield....and wouldn't know coutesy if it landed in their lap.

They are the daily inconsiderates who will be a hazard in the roudabouts and any other roadway in TV.

UNFORTUNATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

btk

[Russ_Boston]

Originally Posted by EdVinMass

So as vehicle B approaches the roundabout and it has a clear outer lane, it should wait, because vehicle A in the inner lane might try to exit in front of you further in the roundabout. Give me a break.

I don't think you understand but I'll try once more.

As VB approaches the roundabout it MUST wait for a gap in both lanes to enter. As VB approaches it needs to look to the left to make sure that the inner lane driver is indeed going straight and not round (as it has the right to do). If it is going straight then you can enter. If it is coming around then wait for it to pass and re look to the left for the next vehicle.

I think I understand now how accidents happen in this things. But you know what - during May I understood them very well based on what I'm used to up here in MASS. Every town square around here has one of these things and I guess I'm just used to the rules.

Hopefully my last word on the subject. I know I learned something.

[Yoda]

I really think that rotories are better driven than talked anout.

Yoda

[downeaster]

Originally Posted by billethkid

realities as well as hypothetical scenarios to promote understanding. The unfortunate reality is that tomorrow morning as we approach the roundabouts nothing will have changed. There will be those of us who will follow the rules as best we know and we will yield and we will be courteous. However please be careful as there will still be those who are in a hurry....do not care about the rules....who do not yield....and wouldn't know coutesy if it landed in their lap.

They are the daily inconsiderates who will be a hazard in the roudabouts and any other roadway in TV.

UNFORTUNATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

btk

You are correct, billie, but there is some hope. I think I have seen an improvement in roundabout navigation since it has received so much publicity. Then there are some that refuse to understand the rules (as evidenced by some of these posts). Then there are those you last mention and they know better but take great pride in thumbing their noses at the rules. They also run red lights, brush off bicyclists, refuse to give pedestrians their right of way, etc.
And I am with Russ, this is my last word on this thread.

[ABC]

Having driven for many years in Europe where roundabouts are prevalent and much quicker to get thru than stoplights i can only add this:

All the comments about a vehicle on the inside lane having to cross the path of one in the outside lane to exit are absolutely incorrect as the main principle of yield to traffic already circling negates this, the only reason a vehicle in the outside lane can end up parallel to one on the inside is if they failed to yield on entry, i.e wait for the vehicle already on the circle to completely pass you before entering the roundabout (regardless of which lane the other vehicle is traveling in). entering a roundabout is like entering any other road system in that vehicles already travelling on that road system have right of way!

The other thing i do notice in TV is how few drivers position their vehicle in the correct lane prior to entering the circle, as long as you know which exit you are going to take it is so simple to get into the correct lane long before reaching the roundabout (right or straight = right hand entry lane, left = left hand entry lane.

Roundabouts are simple, quick and efficient traffic junctions and can safely be navigated by following the 3 basic rules, 1. YIELD on entry 2. Enter from the correct lane position dependent on your planned exit. 3. remember that traffic that is already on the roundabout has right of way over traffic entering the roundabout.


Just as a footnote these rules are available from the Florida Department of Transport:

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/trafficop...Roundabout.pdf

[NJblue]

Originally Posted by ABC

the only reason a vehicle in the outside lane can end up parallel to one on the inside is if they failed to yield on entry, i.e wait for the vehicle already on the circle to completely pass you before entering the roundabout (regardless of which lane the other vehicle is traveling in).

This is not entirely correct since it is possible for two vehicles to enter the circle simultaneously from the same entry point (i.e. one from the left lane and the other from the right lane). This would put them both essentially parallel as they go around the circle. However, if the rules are followed, this should not cause a problem since they would either both be going straight (and hence migrate into the left and right lanes, respectively at the exit that is straight ahead) or the one in the right will be making a right. The problem comes when the person in the right hand (outer) lane wants to continue going around the circle when the person in the left (inner) wants to go straight. This is what creates a potential accident.

The other thing i do notice in TV is how few drivers position their vehicle in the correct lane prior to entering the circle, as long as you know which exit you are going to take it is so simple to get into the correct lane long before reaching the roundabout (right or straight = right hand entry lane, left = left hand entry lane.

While this may actually be a good practice to follow, it is not part of the "rules" of the road where you may be in the left lane if your intent is to go straight.