Does anyone know where to get this data? It may be a clue as to what the silent majority thinks - either way. This is intended to be a constructive request - please let's not get into who is more qualified to make the decision.

"WE" do not make decisions here. Thank Goodness. Every day someone would have a wonderful idea to change things until the prices rise and the essence of what it is now is lost.

Did you read the report that said that 12 accidents occurred at night under circumstances that "varied widely"? Most of us Girl Scouts are pretty sure of the "wide variations" of many of those accidents at night or could make a pretty good guess.

I'm not so sure there is a MMP expert in the whole country. In this case, I would compare the TV MMPs with 50,000 golf carts worth of traffic to safety measures commonly used for roads such as stripes, stop/yield signs, etc. As a retired engineer, I have conducted a study of the CCD4 center stripe and have concluded it adds some level of safety. Where do I send my invoice?

Our elected representatives do. Ergo the striped MMP in CCD4.

If you can't drink and drive safely, stay home!

Do you mean 8?

"Expert" is relative - he is someone who knows more than others. Soliciting the advice of an expert and then deciding not to follow it is hard to fathom. Feel free to send your invoice to anyone who will pay it.

District 4 already did it last year. Take a ride up on the cart paths by Nancy Lopez golf course and see. The district did the centerline stripe. I am not down in The Villages at the moment and I can't remember if they also striped the sides. As mentioned here recently darkness, rain, and tinted windshields are a perfect storm. My own opinion is side striping may be the way to go. It's about be able to see where the path is especially when being blinded by an oncoming cart. My natural tendency is to momentarily look at the side in this situation to limit the blinding. Also I would suspect the side stripes would last longer - less tire contact then the centerline stripe.

You got that right, outlaw. I've mentioned that several times before. The only thing I disagree with in your statement is the "not so sure" part. I'm sure.

Compared to roadways and other ubiquitous forms of transportation, there are no experts on MMP's. Transportation engineers, which I am one, may study MMP's and have some knowledge others do not, but MMP's have not been around long enough or in enough quantity for experts to exist. There is simply not enough history, experience or data.

I would agree with you except that I am not sure that this expert is an expert on golf cart multi-modal paths by this definition of “ having or showing special skill or knowledge because of what you have been taught or what you have experienced”. How many hours has this expert driven stripped multi-modal trails at night? Was this expert taught golf cart multi-modal design in school? Where is the data to back up what he is saying? I believe that data on golf cart multi-modal trail design at present is too abstract to say yes or no with any authority. So, what should we do now?

Most people living in The Villages live on a fixed income. Even though the cost would not effect my standard of living, even a minimal cost might be a problem for others. Perfectly understandable! As the years go by, retirement income does not go as far, so adding a dollar here and a dollar there to living expenses adds up.

It is interesting that in all of the discussions, I see lots of comments about money, safety, and none regarding the engineer's letter, where he commented about consistency in the golf cart lane marking, and possibility liability for NOT following the engineers study.. So my take on the situation is that with CDD4 and possibly CDD8 going rogue, they are creating a worse situation for ALL of the residents of these CDDs while providing a potentially limited safety improvement for the end users. Also, consider the situation where someone not real familiar with the golf cart paths goes from one of the MARKED areas to an UNMARKED area under less than optimal driving conditions. These locations maybe accidents waiting to happen.
I see both arguements, for and against striping, and I have no personal opinion, however, I am very concerned about the possibility of INCONSISTANT markings.
I hope all of the parties can get together and agree to a consistent solution for all of the paths.
Please do not shoot the messenger, thank you.

Again, "expert" is a relative term; someone who knows more than others. You presumably want to make decisions based on input from people who have a greater probability of being correct, in the absence of definitive data. This is actually pretty common; being asked to render an opinion when definitive information is lacking. Otherwise, you may as well just flip a coin. Presumably, the CDDs had some reasons to consider that the engineering firm they retained possessed some level of expertise in this area. The real question you should be asking is "why did the rogue CDDs decide that they know more than the engineering firm they retained"?

4 - center striped for months, now. Try it, you'll like it.

I don't put much credence in this engineer's conclusion. I believe he was giving the customer the answer they were looking for. Before attacking me, this is just my feeling. I personally witnessed many studies written to support what the customer was looking for. To me, it is common sense to safely drive on a cart path with a striped line down the middle. If someone is so confused then they should not be driving, period.

No side stripes on CCD4 MMPs. Just centerline. I like it.

So now you are accusing the engineer of unprofessional behavior? What is your basis for these accusations? Probably none. You should be careful about slandering someone.

and then maybe the accident rate will go down from 12 every 3 years to something less!! :smiley:

Almost everything we have discussed on this forum is being considered by my District 10 supervisors as recorded in the minutes of their September 10th meeting starting on page 8 of the PDF -> VCDD Meetings/Agendas

I don't believe the engineering company was unprofessional and no one is making this accusation. They just looked a a very narrow set of data, Reported accidents and Florida statuorty requirements. This may be all they were reqested to do by the PWAC. They said striping was not warrented by the State of Florida and the accident data did not support side striping. They also said if The Villages chose to do side striping how it should be done and the materials.

I am a proponent of striping, but I agree it should be in all districts. I am bothered seeing district 8 going rogue. It is not making the situation any better.

I would like to see a more comprehensive traffic study conducted on the MMPs by a different firm specializing in traffic flow surveys. Kindof like a second doctor's opinion.

As found of the District gov web site and I quote:

Richard Busche of Kimley-Horn & Associates clarified that as a Professional Engineer, his final recommendation included within the design study is that edge line markings are not warranted and are not recommended and it is his recommendation that the edge lines striping not be installed. Mr. Busche stated the reference on page 7 is stated in response to a specific option included for in the Manual of Uniform of Traffic Devices (MUTCD) but is not the final conclusion.

see Page 7 http://districtgov.org/PDFView/PDFMe...20150720pa0301

I would also like to see a more comprehensive traffic study !

I don't believe they acted unprofessionally either but it was suggested, without any supporting evidence, that they did. Go back a few posts and reread.

I have to admit I have no experience with this issue and hence, no opinion. My golf cart is not yet built, I've driven less than 10 miles on the MMPs and probably less than 1 mile at night. Therefore , I was going to keep my big yap shut. :1rotfl: But......
I then thought of looking at the issue from a much broader perspective, not getting bogged down in engineering reports, which district did what, or how much bang for the buck would be realized from striping.
Are we a community---"America's Friendliest Hometown", or are we starting to gravitate toward the national trend of "what's good for me as an individual" or a "me first" attitude. Clearly, after 142 posts, there are those who favor and those who oppose striping. There are those that feel they can drive safely with MMPs as is, and those who would like enhanced visibility.
The question , as a community, is how far to go to accommodate those who need the extra help--literally a cost-benefit analysis. Even if you can drive without problems as is, enhanced visibility doesn't hurt you. It may, however greatly help your neighbor, even prevent injury.
There is a cost issue which runs through this thread. But we pay for plenty of "stuff" that does not directly benefit the individual. How many of us have children in the school district, yet we pay school tax. How many of us use food stamps, yet I don't believe any of us want children to starve. Certain spending is shared by all because it benefits the community as a whole, not necessarily every individual. The suggestion that someone should not drive a cart if they are having visibility issues that could be improved is absurd. Just because I can drive I-95 at 100 mph doesn't mean everyone who can't should be home watching TV.
I also have the sense that if some great philanthropist came along to pay for any enhancement to MMPs we want, there would be side and center striping, with reflectors, bright streetlights, computer lane departure and front collision alarms, electronic direction and traffic flow signs. Who would object?
I would hate to see the following news interview with a new widow
Interviewer: What happened here?
Widow: My husband was driving but couldn't see the path well---he drove us into a ditch and was killed. I wish they would have striped the paths

How often have we all seen nothing done until tragedy strikes?

I'm sure my position will "evolve" with more experience. For now please forgive my uncharacteristic foray into the world of somewhat liberal thought. I will now retreat back to republican politics and fox news

I like this guy! Well said. I am a little disappointed that you state that you'll now retreat back to ....

Unfortunately, logic, caring and good ole common sense are sometimes hard to find.

Xavier

This is one of the top ten stupid ideas discussed on this site. What good would side stripping really do? Isn't it enough that if your tires hit the grass along side the path you know you're off the path? You're not going to fall of the edge of the earth. Some say that an MMP is the same as a highway which have stripping. Highways also have guard rails. Should we also install guard rails? If we did then we could put side bumpers on our carts and we could bounce off the rails. I would not be opposed to center striping nut side striping is a waste of time and money. Pay attention to your driving instead of depending on a white stripe to keep you safe. :confused:

What about those little speed bump reflectors? They never need servicing.

And if you drift because you are on the cell phone [big mistake], falling asleep [big mistake], in a rainstorm [act of God], very dark outside and the driver has poor vision [fact of life], daydreaming [little mistake], drank too much[big mistake], overtaking a bicycle [no harm done] ----you would get a little reminder [thump,thump,thump].

:BigApplause: Well said!

Never mind.

Your entire post seems to be all about golf cart driving on the Multi Model Paths. When you are here full time and using the MMPs, you will quickly discover that walkers, joggers, runners, bikers, trikers, elliptical riders, etc use these paths along with golf carts. And that is the point of the engineers and those with experience in transportation and public safety.
In their opinion based on their education and work experience, the MMP'S will become "less" safe for anyone using the MMPS who is not operating a golf cart. Especially with center striping, a golf cart highway mentality will be enhanced. That mentality exists already with many cart operators. In their opinion, side striping would not make the MMPs safer, especially for the above mentioned, in fact it could make travel more dangerous.
So do we want to stripe or line the paths for the benefit of a very small minority of golf cart drivers, and forsake the safety of all other users? All of the pro striping advocates opinions are based solely on their personal preference, and what they think is best for the MMPs. Not based on any research or past education or professional experience.
Relating to your past experience, would it be a good idea for a patient to get your diagnosis and course of treatment, only to go home and follow the next door neighbors recommendation who happens to be a mailman? Regardless of what happens, you'll still love being here.

well the engineer did say the accidents aren't due to lack of striping but rather are due to us all being drunk, stupid and inattentive. not exactly a confidence builder as far as the value of the study in which they set out to prove their prior recommendations were correct.

If we were talking about lowering the temperature in the pools by 10 degrees because 20 residents think it is better for ones health.

How long would it take for the majority to squash the idea?

The numbers which too many seem readily willing to ignore.......speak loudly and clearly the issue is not about improving the safety of TV residents. It is all about the wants of a few. The statistics do not support the arguments in favor of the striping. Nobody is saying these folks do not have a personal issue. But we do not operate a population on the basis of emotion and individuals.

On a second note. Let's assume some how or other the powers that be (what ever and who ever that means) agree the sritping should be done.
They agree to the $300-$400,000 to do the intial job and $100,000 annual maintenance (put any number you want in here that makes you happy).

The first order of business is to find the funding. This action is not currently a line item in the budget. To move forward the powers that be have a choice of going over budget (a no no in any well run entity), raise revenue (should be a no no for most of us) or not do something else that is in the budget to allow the striping project. What are we willing to give up that is currently in the budget?

Do not be lulled into the trap of it is only pennies a day per person. This turns into hundreds of dollars increase of resident fees SOMEWHERE down the line. Hence, once again, in my opinion, the numbers just do not support doing this project.

I haven't seen the engineering report, and my first inclination would be to defer to the experts (quid pro quo). Was their conclusion really that golf cart drivers of average ability and eyesight who respect their obligation to share the paths with pedestrians and bikers will all of a sudden transform into reckless road hogs indiscriminately plowing into others because someone painted a center stipe to aid visibility and safety due to some new found "highway mentality"? If so, God help us when we drive our cars on public highways.
Also, I have no idea of how many are in the "very small minority" of golf cart drivers. Apparently there were enough that district 4 did it and district 8 is considering it. Yes, the district representatives may be on some sort of egomaniacal power trip following their own agenda rather than the will of their constituency, but I thought that privilege was reserved for the US Congress.
Again, with more experience, I may change my position

Being drunk, stupid, and inattentive is probably the cause of many car accidents. Perhaps it is also true with golf carts ;-)

Stop!!! It is unfair to use logical, common sense analysis on this thread.:BigApplause:

You don't happen to work with Jeff Dunham do you?

So it is about the money! Are you a softball player? $500,000 to upgrade softball facilities. Your ok with this? This benefits maybe 5% of the population where as striping the paths would improve safety for all Villagers. Maybe there sould be a cost benefit analysis done on all projects. What is the benefit and return on flowers in the roundabouts? As the districts make up their budgets, striping would be a continuing line item, just like flowers.

Streets are for motorized vehicles, but there are walkers, bicycles, tricycles, etc on the streets as well. I have yet to see one complaint or objection about side stripes on the streets.

The MMPs are used mainly by golf carts. The striping, as proposed, will take up 6 inches on either side of the path. I don't see walkers, bicycles, tricycles operating this close to the edge.

I am a biker and I do not ride on the MMPs. I would much rather ride in the streets. I feel much safer.

Sort of my point in my rather verbose post above. Not every expense benefits every individual in the community. But overall the goal, within financial constraints, is to provide as wide a variety of services and infrastructure to as many as feasible---kind of a community service quid pro quo---you pay for mine and I'll pay for yours.

5% of 100,000 population is 5,000 people!

From the Engineering Evaluation:

2011 thru 2014

340 total reported accidents
65 of the 340 occured on MMP's (all others on streets and parking lots)
12 of the 65 occured at night

65 accidents on MMPs over 3 years....average 22 per year = .022%

.022% (22 MMP accidents in one year) compared to 5.0% (5000 woodshop users).

Not a good comparison.

Assuming it was passed for a moment. Yes it would become a line item in the budget. That does not change the three options for finding the funding.
>Eliminate something else that provides the funds.
>Raise the revenues i.e. fees/assessments etc. to allow the striping funding without giving up anything.
>based on priorities, like it or not; anything that affects .022% would not earn a spot in the budget....hence do nothing.

Since the striping will be either a numbers decision, one of the above must happen.
Or an emotional and or political decision neither of which changes the method of finding the funding.

We have the luxury of the developer being involved in much of what we enjoy in our Villages life style. So budgets, fees, adding projects or increasing costs are not readily apparent to us......as long as our fees stay the same....eh?


Budgeting is not a very popular subject because of the disciplines required to do it right.

Ya just cannot do everything EVERYBODY wants.

22 divided by 100,000 = .022 %