[mickey100]

Originally Posted by Cedwards38

Thanks Mikeod. I appreciate your response. That scenario is certainly a possibility that should be considered, but would the probability be high for us to be potentially liable for a cart driver's bad judgement and mistake? Wouldn't we actually decrease our liability by taking action to install safety lines? I don't see how a reasonable jury could determine that our actions of striping could have caused that accident. Couldn't you make just as valid an argument that not striping would subject us to liability? Cart is driving at night, doesn't realize where the edge of the path lies, drives off the side of the path, collides with a fence post or tree. Attorney takes us to court for not being proactive, thus causing a safety hazard?

Is Mikeod's scenario, and others like it the reason that the engineers recommend against them rather than for them?

Engineers, i.e., the EXPERTS, have determined that striping is not recommended, therefore liability is zilch.

[outlaw]

Originally Posted by mickey100

Engineers, i.e., the EXPERTS, have determined that striping is not recommended, therefore liability is zilch.

One engineer, not necessarily an expert in this rather unique field; there may be no experts in golf cart path/MMP safety issues. Maybe not even a professional engineer.

[outlaw]

Originally Posted by Mikeod

Well, just off the top of my head, what if someone driving the path at night gets confused and thinks the white side stripe is the center line. They think they are on the wrong side of the path and pull right, colliding with a fence post or tree. Their attorney discovers the CDD installed the stripes against the advice of an engineering firm hired to determine if the stripes were a good idea. Lawsuit.

With the frequency that the dividing posts on the paths are crumpled, I don't think that scenario is a stretch.

According to the news, the engineer stated at the meeting that the side stripes did not present any safety issues. I think there is a better chance of a lawsuit if there is a fatality or serious injury because of no stripes. But we shall see. Sooner or later there is going to be a head on collision between two golf carts or a walker is going to be taken out in a blind corner.... TV has deep pockets.

[Bogie Shooter]

Originally Posted by Carpe Diem

The cost of striping the paths is really a pittance. It is obvious that the study concluded that statistical analysis showed that - despite our feelings - the multi modal paths are safe and striping would not make them significantly safer - if safer at all. (I've never seen an accident in an area where striping would be done.) In any case, cost was not the reason for not doing this.

Finally, with respect to dog parks. I don't care for dogs much. But I think dog lovers have a legitimate request for dedicating one month of dog owners amenities fees towards creating a few more dog parks. The problem is - most of the land has been turned into housing. I was shocked when I saw that there wasn't more green space reserved for these types of things in the south. Just shocked.

Have you got over the shock?

[Happydaz]

Originally Posted by outlaw

According to the news, the engineer stated at the meeting that the side stripes did not present any safety issues. I think there is a better chance of a lawsuit if there is a fatality or serious injury because of no stripes. But we shall see. Sooner or later there is going to be a head on collision between two golf carts or a walker is going to be taken out in a blind corner.... TV has deep pockets.

Why does a walker need to be taken out in a blind curve? Maybe the golf carts should never pass or drive faster than they can see around curves. Why are walkers and bicyclists always thrown up as the problem? Lines in the road will make walking and bicycling more dangerous on "the golf cart path." Golf carts will hesitate to cross the center line. Maybe a compromise would be to use reflectors to denote the entrance to dividng paths and reflectors in the middle of the curves, and leave the straightaways unlined. I would be for that.

[mickey100]

Originally Posted by outlaw

One engineer, not necessarily an expert in this rather unique field; there may be no experts in golf cart path/MMP safety issues. Maybe not even a professional engineer.

Do your homework. Kimley-Horn is an award winning engineering firm in the U.S. It has been ranked one of the top engineering firms in the country for highway/roadway design. The study prepared for The Villages was done by Kimberly-Horn, and has the backing of the engineering firm and was completed and reviewed by licensed professional civil engineers. The firm is a large one and has specially subgroups that handle the various issues that come up like environmental, traffic engineering, roadway design, aviation, etc. There is no question these people are the experts. Why people with no engineering background think they are smarter than licensed professional engineers just amazes me.

[Polar Bear]

Originally Posted by mickey100

Do your homework. Kimberly-Horn is an award winning engineering firm in the U.S. It has been ranked one of the top engineering firms in the country for highway/roadway design. The study prepared for The Villages was done by Kimberly-Horn, and has the backing of the engineering firm and was completed and reviewed by licensed professional civil engineers. The firm is a large one and has specially subgroups that handle the various issues that come up like environmental, traffic engineering, roadway design, aviation, etc. There is no question these people are the experts. Why people with no engineering background think they are smarter than licensed professional engineers just amazes me.

Ooh. Can't resist this one. I normally don't pick on wording/spelling type errors. But such an attitude demands it this time...

If you did your homework, you'd know it is KIMLEY-Horn. And they are a very good firm. I dealt with them often in my 30+ years of being a Professional Engineer in the transportation sector. And they probably know as much about multi-modal paths as anybody.

But I will repeat something I've said a couple times before...there are no true experts in the field of MMP's as they exist in TV. There are those who know more than most, and I would put Kimley-Horn in that category. But enough relevant data simply do not exist for anybody to be considered an expert in the same way that an engineer would be an expert in "environment, traffic engineering, roadway design, aviation", or other similar fields. Large scale MMP path design...the type that intermingles seamlessly with a street system and serves significant population centers as a major transportation alternative, as in TV...is in its infancy.

[tuccillo]

"Expert" is usually a relative term at a particular point in time: they know more than others at a point in time. Information/knowledge in most fields is continually accumulated. Therefore, they, Kimley-Horn, are most likely "experts" in the field of MMP at this time. Whether the field is in is infancy is irrelevant. You obtain the best opinion at the present time from experts and make decisions based on that opinion.

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

Ooh. Can't resist this one. I normally don't pick on wording/spelling type errors. But such an attitude demands it this time...

If you did your homework, you'd know it is KIMLEY-Horn. And they are a very good firm. I dealt with them often in my 30+ years of being a Professional Engineer in the transportation sector. And they probably know as much about multi-modal paths as anybody.

But I will repeat something I've said a couple times before...there are no true experts in the field of MMP's as they exist in TV. There are those who know more than most, and I would put Kimley-Horn in that category. But enough relevant data simply do not exist for anybody to be considered an expert in the same way that an engineer would be an expert in "environment, traffic engineering, roadway design, aviation", or other similar fields. Large scale MMP path design...the type that intermingles seamlessly with a street system and serves significant population centers as a major transportation alternative, as in TV...is in its infancy.

[Polar Bear]

Originally Posted by tuccillo

...whether the field is in is infancy is irrelevant...

You say some things about "experts" I can agree with. But your statement above is not one of them.

It doesn't matter how long a field has been around or how much data are available? Come on! [emoji33]

[dbussone]

So right. Or we could all be MMP experts, as many on this thread apparently believe.

[tuccillo]

Reread my post. You missed the point - I will repeat. An expert can exist in a field in it's infancy. They are simply the ones with the best understanding at a point in time. Expert is not an absolute term in an involving discipline: today's experts may know far less than tomorrow's experts but today they are experts. This is not rocket science.

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

You say some things about "experts" I can agree with. But your statement above is not one of them.

It doesn't matter how long a field has been around or how much data are available? Come on! [emoji33]

[mickey100]

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

Ooh. Can't resist this one. I normally don't pick on wording/spelling type errors. But such an attitude demands it this time...

If you did your homework, you'd know it is KIMLEY-Horn. And they are a very good firm. I dealt with them often in my 30+ years of being a Professional Engineer in the transportation sector. And they probably know as much about multi-modal paths as anybody.

But I will repeat something I've said a couple times before...there are no true experts in the field of MMP's as they exist in TV. There are those who know more than most, and I would put Kimley-Horn in that category. But enough relevant data simply do not exist for anybody to be considered an expert in the same way that an engineer would be an expert in "environment, traffic engineering, roadway design, aviation", or other similar fields. Large scale MMP path design...the type that intermingles seamlessly with a street system and serves significant population centers as a major transportation alternative, as in TV...is in its infancy.

A typo. Wow. Good job. As far as "experts and knowledgeable people" go, what Tuccillo said. My opinion is based on my 30 years as a licensed Professional Civil Engineer.

[Polar Bear]

Originally Posted by mickey100

A typo. Wow...

A typo isn't usually repeated exactly the same. But whatever. Your "typo" didn't prompt my reply. Your attitude did. That was no typo.

Originally Posted by mickey100

...My opinion is based on my 30 years as a licensed Professional Civil Engineer.

As is mine.

[Topspinmo]

I'm self proclaimed expert and know-it-all (just ask my wife) nobody asked me

[tuccillo]

LOL.

For some silly reason that reminds me of the two paths you can go down. The first path is you become a specialist to the point where you know everything about nothing. The other path is you become a generalist to the point where you know nothing about everything.

Originally Posted by Topspinmo

I'm self proclaimed expert and know-it-all (just ask my wife) nobody asked me