[VT2TV]

Originally Posted by redwitch

1. Why would you assume the child has no interaction with other children? There are pre-schools, schools, day care, all kinds of activities for children in and out of TV, other children visit their grandparents in this neighborhood. This little one is very active in activities from preschool to gymnastics to dance -- all of which ensure playtime with other children.

I assumed that the child had no interaction with other children because you yourself posted that the child was not using any TV facilities.


2. I truly doubt TV is aware this child is living here. I know that when my daughter lived with me, someone reported that I had a 17 YO living with me. She had to show her driver's license to Community Watch to prove she was 22 not once but twice. If TV knew, there is no doubt in my mind that the grandparents would have to come up with another solution.

If they could have come up with another solutions they should have-it is called being respectful of others and doing what is right.


3. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter how much anyone here objects to this child living here. You don't know where the child lives and, thus, you cannot report it to anyone. It is up to the neighbors to do what they deem is appropriate -- no one else can. You can rail about the grandparents breaking the rules until you're blue in the face. Doesn't matter -- the child will still be here until the mother returns.

Are your fingers in your ears going "naw, naw naw naw naw naw" What a very "I don't care about anyone except me and my friends" even if we are wrong.



While the grandparents love their grandchild and their daughter, they want their lives back, too. They bought into TV lock, stock and barrel. There is no way that the mother or child would be here a day longer than necessary -- two years was the maximum time. Should something happen to the mother, I'm sure the grandparents would find another solution. It is one thing for a pre-schooler (or younger) to live in TV for a set period of time, it is another for a child in school with friends visiting, etc. to live here. The grandparents know and understand this.

When the rules are broken for one they are subject to being broken by anyone. Who are you to decide which rules are ok to break and which ones are not?

4. If a rule is being broken and you object to that rule being broken, you do have recourse -- contact Community Watch. It will be checked out and proper steps will be taken.

The only point I was trying to make was that rules are broken. We ALL have choices, especially when it comes to rules -- follow them, ignore them, deliberately break them, move to another locale if you don't like those rules. We also have choices when we see a rule is broken -- explain to the individual what the rule is and hope they quit breaking it; go along with the offender by allowing the rule to be broken; call an authority to stop the breaking of the rule. You do have recourse if you choose to take them. The choice really is up to you.

When the rules broken do not affect anyone except you, that is one thing. But the rules you have chosen to break afffect many more people, and goes against the rules/policies YOU CHOSE to abide by when you moved here.


I don't want to get into a discussion about the morality of breaking a rule or condoning the breaking of a rule. It is an individual choice. In this case, I choose to stand with the grandparents and the neighbors who have opted to let the child stay. Yes, we are all culpable but I can live with my choice and, obviously, so can the neighbors. I could not live with forcing these loving people to choose between their dream (TV) or their grandchild.

Your way of thinking is part of what is wrong with the world today. Everyone is trying to make up their own rules, and want everything to revolve around themselves and their wishes and wants. Morality is not a choice of the individual. It is doing what is best for the majority. It is about what is right and wrong, and not delibertly doing what you know to be wrong. It is not up to you and/or your neigbors to go against rules you agreed to abide by. I could go on, but I don't think you would understand.



Everyone breaks rules of some sort -- sometimes knowingly, sometimes out of ignorance. Some rules are truly important (not murdering someone is a pretty rule); some are minor (no jaywalking in my mind); some are downright silly (showering in the nude). Regardless, we all decide which rules we choose to follow and which ones we choose to break. But I doubt there is one person who can say (and honestly believe) that they follow every rule every time (think of the small piece of paper you threw on the ground; the time you drove a little too fast; ....). So far as we know, only one person has been perfect and even He had a heck of temper and knowingly broke some rules (He was arrested, tried and crucified).

Of course everyone breaks some small rules at times. That should just involve yourself though and not anybody else. And if you break the rules, hopefully you are caught and corrected, and learn what you did wrong as a lesson.



Having written this, I will not be participating in this thread anymore. You and/or others certainly may continue it, but don't expect a response from me. You and your thoughts will never be changed, and I feel we will never agree. This is my first experience with the boards, and actually my first interaction with any of the residents of TV, and I have to say that I am very disappointed. Regardless of what I have said (and I still stand by what I have said), I am not as upset by the child living here as much as the attitudes I have experienced on the boards. It makes me question whether I really want to move to TV. When we visited and toured, it truely looked like Mayberry with everyone happy and living their dream. What I have discovered on this board is that people not only disregard the rules and regulation, but have no guilt in doing so. I wanted to move to a retirement, over 55 community. I honestly have to wonder not only how many children live in TV, but am very sad to discover that there are so many people sneaking around, lying and happily doing things they have agreed not to do. For RedWitch, I feel sure you are only one of many that are hiding children. Maybe next time a goup of teen boys will move beside you-will you keep that secret? Would it conversley be ok to have a Meth lab in the neighborhood as long as everyone agrees it is ok. If people are breaking one rule, you can bet there are many, many more secrets than even you know. Remember that what goes around, comes around. And if you remeber Abe Lincoln's comment that "A house divided against itself cannot stand" When everyone starts doing their own "thing" in such a large place, many problems will ensue.
My last comment will be to be careful. When you go against the rules, you could be inviting problems. Imagine this scenerio: a fire breaks out at the g-parents house at night or when all the people who know "the little secret" are gone. Suppose the g-parents are unresponsive from smoke, or have a heart attack trying to fight the fire. The child is hiding because he is afraid-maybe he even started the fire playng with matches. The fire dept comes and the only person around is ignorant of the child. The firemen get the g-parents out as the fire becomes hotter. They ask the neighbor if anyone else lives there and they say No because that is the rules. So the firemen do not go back into the house, and the child dies. Don't say it could not happen. I have spent many years on rescue squads, and emergency services. IT CAN HAPPEN. I have seen it.
OK, that's all, like I said, I will not respond anymore.

[Annabelle]

Some excellent points have been made by PT, VT and Gracie. You Go Girls!

A retirement community is no place for a child to reside on a permanent basis. The argument that those of us who oppose the child's residency lack compassion is ridiculously weak.

As a former educator I have seen similar cases whereby a grandchild and grandparents have bonded to the point that the grandparents have sued for custody when the absentee parent has returned. So all those "faux" aunties and uncles today, could possibly find themselves permanent members of this child's extended family in a few years.

I have no grievance with the grandparents raising the child, but since they made that choice, they should also make the move to a place outside TV and either rent or sell their home.

I think this family has selfishly shown an utter lack of regard for their neighbors by involving them in their little scheme. I agree with the person who posted that some of the neighbors may have reluctantly gone along with this venture perhaps because they didn't want to be "ostracized" or for the sake of living peacefully amongst their neighbors.

If I were shopping for a home in TV I would never buy any home on a street that had children as permanent residents. I dare say I am the only one who feels this way.

Thank goodness for TOTV, I am learning new things every time I visit this site.

Annabelle

[Bryan]

Twice, maybe three times, in all these posts the questions have been asked about the fines, how much, who imposes them, what is the process. No where did an answer ever come up. Someone gave the district gov link, which I went to, and could not find the info.

Fines imply some sort of penalty. In this country, you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. If anyone is fining me, they have to go to court (civil or criminal) and prove their case. I get a chance to confront my accusers and present my side. Then there is a ruling. You can't just add a fine to my Amenity Fees because you feel like it.

Like Talk Host, I sure would like to know the process, the fines, and the system to this.

On a slightly related subject, someone said Community Watch checked the ID of a guest for their age twice. Details were lacking. Community Watch has no policing powers so if they checked the ID "on the street" or at the home, you should have refused to even speak to them, kicked them off your property. If they checked it at a pool or rec center, that is different - that is one of their duties. But all they can check for is the Guest Pass or Village ID - not an ID for age proof.

Way too often I think the "squeaking wheel" approach is used to address deed and covenant violations. No complaint equals no enforcement. Complaints equals action (most of the time). What we need is evenhanded, consistent enforcement of the rules - not spotty enforcement on a whim.

Furthermore, times change. What made sense five or ten years ago may not make sense today. That is why googling "silly laws" gets so many hits. We never go back and repeal invalid or outdated rules. Maybe that is what we need today - a review and rewriting of some of our rules to reflect current times. Get rid of outdated or useless rules, repeal them, trash them, or change them to fit today's world.

[cometgirl]

we are new to TV but also believe in following the "rules". if i knew of a similar situation i would report it.

we did ask about such a posibility when we were searching for a house in TV and were told of a similar situation. could it be the same one being referenced?? we were told TV was award of the issue, and it was being addressed. the grandparents were going to move and had agreed to a time frame.

i am sure there is more then one child living in TV, and if were aware of one, so would the powers that be in TV.

[dillywho]

Originally Posted by Bryan

Twice, maybe three times, in all these posts the questions have been asked about the fines, how much, who imposes them, what is the process. No where did an answer ever come up. Someone gave the district gov link, which I went to, and could not find the info.

Fines imply some sort of penalty. In this country, you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. If anyone is fining me, they have to go to court (civil or criminal) and prove their case. I get a chance to confront my accusers and present my side. Then there is a ruling. You can't just add a fine to my Amenity Fees because you feel like it.

Like Talk Host, I sure would like to know the process, the fines, and the system to this.

On a slightly related subject, someone said Community Watch checked the ID of a guest for their age twice. Details were lacking. Community Watch has no policing powers so if they checked the ID "on the street" or at the home, you should have refused to even speak to them, kicked them off your property. If they checked it at a pool or rec center, that is different - that is one of their duties. But all they can check for is the Guest Pass or Village ID - not an ID for age proof.

Way too often I think the "squeaking wheel" approach is used to address deed and covenant violations. No complaint equals no enforcement. Complaints equals action (most of the time). What we need is evenhanded, consistent enforcement of the rules - not spotty enforcement on a whim.

Furthermore, times change. What made sense five or ten years ago may not make sense today. That is why googling "silly laws" gets so many hits. We never go back and repeal invalid or outdated rules. Maybe that is what we need today - a review and rewriting of some of our rules to reflect current times. Get rid of outdated or useless rules, repeal them, trash them, or change them to fit today's world.

Bryan, guests must not only present their guest card but their picture ID as well. That is stated right on the pass. The person checking ID's can do the math. CW does have the power to ask them to leave the facility. Children under 19 are not allowed at the facilities alone and, in most instances, will not have a picture ID; they must be accompanied by an adult (someone over 19 with proper ID). For instance, you cannot drop the grandkids off at the pool and return for them later.

There is a "family section" in TV. It is the Village of Spring Arbor. They are allowed to have children there but do not get the ammenity privileges (at least the kids don't). I don't know all the particulars, but maybe the grandparents in question could check that out.

[KayakerNC]

Originally Posted by Annabelle

**snip**
If I were shopping for a home in TV I would never buy any home on a street that had children as permanent residents.
Annabelle

And would a seller have to disclose that information?

[graciegirl]

I am afraid that this thread is giving the impression that this sort of thing occurs frequently in The Villages.

I believe that it does not.

[The Shadow]

Let me put a new twist on the child in TV question.

When you buy a house in TV it is your house. You can choose to sell it when you wish. You can sell it to whomever your wish regardless of age. What if a financial stable young couple buys a resale home and a year later has a child? Does the child get deported or is he grandfathered in seeing he arrived after the purchase of the home?

[BobKat1]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I am afraid that this thread is giving the impression that this sort of thing occurs frequently in The Villages.

I believe that it does not.

GG you are probably correct. It's also probably at the point of not going anywhere...

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by The Shadow

Let me put a new twist on the child in TV question.

When you buy a house in TV it is your house. You can choose to sell it when you wish. You can sell it to whomever your wish regardless of age. What if a financial stable young couple buys a resale home and a year later has a child? Does the child get deported or is he grandfathered in seeing he arrived after the purchase of the home?

The restrictions are on the DEED. They transfer.

[The Shadow]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

The restrictions are on the DEED. They transfer.

I have talked to a homeowner on the historic side that is far short of being a senior citizen. I would guess that the lesser price houses on the historic side would be a selling feature for first time home buyers.

[dillywho]

Originally Posted by The Shadow

Let me put a new twist on the child in TV question.

When you buy a house in TV it is your house. You can choose to sell it when you wish. You can sell it to whomever your wish regardless of age. What if a financial stable young couple buys a resale home and a year later has a child? Does the child get deported or is he grandfathered in seeing he arrived after the purchase of the home?

They are called covenants and everyone has to abide because they are legal contracts. Yes, there are some younger ones here and not all on the "historic" side. Up to 20% are permitted by law. They do have to sign the covenant contract which does not include children younger than 19.

[BUC]

So what have we learned? If you think that a kid has over stayed there time limited or if a dog pees on the right of way in front of your house, no ,I remember the dog can stay over 30 days and the kid can pee on your yard for 30 days a year, wait Oh I give up "CAN"T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG" to quote Roddy King ( the drunk driver that started the L.A. Roits several years ago)

[Annabelle]

Newbee,
I could not agree more. If the residents of the Villages don't band together and see to it that the rules and restrictions in their deeds are enforced then those few with their "I am above the rules" mentality can be damaging to he entire community and not just the street on which they live. We all know that "it only takes a few bad apples to spoil the barrel."

Kayacker,
Before purchasing a home, I would have the seller sign a statement that they have no "knowledge" whatsoever of children residing on their street or village. I would also go to all the neighbors, introduce myself, ask the same question..."do any children live on this street." Finally, I would ask the same information from the real estate agent. If I moved in and found that children do indeed live full time on my street or in my village, my next step would be to consult with an attorney.

Annabelle

[redwitch]

Newbee, kids living here full time is few and far between. However, kids visiting grandparents is very common. So, there will be children of one age or another in TV on almost year round -- you'll see them in the Town Squares, etc. -- the same is true of any retirement community. The 80/20 rule is also true of any retirement community -- it is federal law.

I really wouldn't go asking about kids living in a village -- I think it would just make the neighbors wonder if you're going to complain when their grandkids come to visit and make you seem a little less friendly than you probably are. There are covenants to prevent children living here. You can ensure these covenants are enforced (the developer is very pro-active in keeping people in compliance when it is known that someone is breaking a restriction) by simply notifying the developer of the facts.

Do check out the village -- visit at different times of the day; look carefully at the lawn maintenance; find out how many on your block are snowbirds, frogs, rental properties; if you like block parties and the like, find out if your mini-community has them. These are actually things that will much more affect you than full-time children.