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  #16  
Old 02-09-2015, 09:31 AM
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Have lived in ten different neighborhoods in Md, Va and here in TV(2). All on public water systems. Have never had water quality problems in dishwasher, suds, washing machine or anyof the stories we see here. Virtually all of my shirts are non wrinkle and come out of washer and dryer looking great.

What am I missing (other than a lot of unecessary costs)?
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  #17  
Old 02-09-2015, 09:40 AM
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Not to beat a dead horse, but I regularly test our water, for among other things, salt, and our water softener does not add any measureable amount of salt to the house water. I am sure that a misoperating water softener can do this, but I have had water softeners (all Sears) for over 30 years, and outside of the units reaching end of life around 10 years each, I have never had a leak or salt issue.

I agree with above comments, do your research, talk to your neighbors, and listen to the water filter sales people very carefully. In my personal experience the people that came to the house took at lot of information OUT OF CONTEXT and used the rather outrageous headlines to support their view, so be careful.
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  #18  
Old 02-09-2015, 10:03 AM
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Some people like the feel of soft water and it will eliminate the white residue on faucets and prevent glass from becoming etched. There will also be less build up on the heating elements in the hot water heater although the builder-grade hot water heaters may fail before that becomes a significant issue. You can generally get by with less soap.

Water softening (for hardness) and filtering (for sediment and chlorine) are two different things. The water in The Villages is pretty heavily chlorinated and a carbon filter will remove the chlorine and your water will taste better. Sediment is really not an issue. The real reason for using a sediment filter is to extend the life of the carbon filter because without a sediment filter in front of the carbon filter the carbon filter can become clogged with sediment before it is depleted from removing chlorine. The minor amount of sediment in the water, the magnesium and calcium ions that make water hard, and the chlorine (added by the water department to kill microbes in the water during delivery to your house) do not make the water unsafe. If you have a water softener, a carbon filter (either an external carbon filter in an enclosure or an included carbon filter in a "hybrid water softener") will extend the life of the water softener because chlorine will attack the resin used for ion exchange in the water softener. We do lots of things is life because we like the end result and not because they are "necessary".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Challenger View Post
Have lived in ten different neighborhoods in Md, Va and here in TV(2). All on public water systems. Have never had water quality problems in dishwasher, suds, washing machine or anyof the stories we see here. Virtually all of my shirts are non wrinkle and come out of washer and dryer looking great.

What am I missing (other than a lot of unecessary costs)?
  #19  
Old 02-09-2015, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuccillo View Post
Some people like the feel of soft water and it will eliminate the white residue on faucets and prevent glass from becoming etched. There will also be less build up on the heating elements in the hot water heater although the builder-grade hot water heaters may fail before that becomes a significant issue. You can generally get by with less soap.

Water softening (for hardness) and filtering (for sediment and chlorine) are two different things. The water in The Villages is pretty heavily chlorinated and a carbon filter will remove the chlorine and your water will taste better. Sediment is really not an issue. The real reason for using a sediment filter is to extend the life of the carbon filter because without a sediment filter in front of the carbon filter the carbon filter can become clogged with sediment before it is depleted from removing chlorine. The minor amount of sediment in the water, the magnesium and calcium ions that make water hard, and the chlorine (added by the water department to kill microbes in the water during delivery to your house) do not make the water unsafe. If you have a water softener, a carbon filter (either an external carbon filter in an enclosure or an included carbon filter in a "hybrid water softener") will extend the life of the water softener because chlorine will attack the resin used for ion exchange in the water softener. We do lots of things is life because we like the end result and not because they are "necessary".
Thanks for an enlightening response. As for me , I can't see a cost/ benefit reason to use these systems. Don't regularly buy bottled water either- same reason.
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  #20  
Old 02-09-2015, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuccillo View Post
The minor amount of sediment in the water,
I'm going disagree with that statement. I guess you don't have a sediment filter, if you had one and you looked at your jaw would drop with the amount a Nova filter removes.

The Villages Florida

without a good sediment/carbon filter you're drinking, bathing, cooking and washing dishes in dirty or muddy water



Quote:
If you have a water softener, a carbon filter (either an external carbon filter in an enclosure or an included carbon filter in a "hybrid water softener") will extend the life of the water softener because chlorine will attack the resin used for ion exchange in the water softener.
That is called a backwards incorrect instal, carbon should be placed after NOT before the softener.

Reason is the salt added is sacrificial (extending it's life is foolish) , it's inexpensive.

The correct install is as follows softener, sediment then carbon.

But the other factor is the type of carbon, and size of the carbon containers, that's another story.

.
  #21  
Old 02-09-2015, 01:22 PM
baustgen baustgen is offline
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For dishes try Cascade Premium soap packets. They are expensive but do a great job on glasses. A lot cheaper than buying a softener.
  #22  
Old 02-09-2015, 02:12 PM
tuccillo tuccillo is offline
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Sure there is some sediment in the water but there is nothing to suggest it poses a health issue. People have been drinking water from municipal water supplies for a very long time. If it floats your boat then filter it out.

You are incorrect about the placement of a sediment and carbon filter relative to a water softener. I am not sure you understand how a water softener works. Magnesium and calcium ions are exchanged with sodium or potassium ions in the resin tank. The regeneration phase uses sodium chloride or potassium chloride as a source for sodium or potassium ions on the surface of the resin beads (to replace the accumulated magnesium and calcium ions). The chloride is thrown away. You are not extending the life of the sodium chloride or the potassium chloride with a carbon filter. The amount of sodium chloride or potassium chloride consumed in the regeneration phase is a function of the hardness of the water - the more magnesium and calcium ions in the water the more sodium chloride or potassium chloride you will consume via the need for more frequent regenerations. You absolutely want any filters before the water softener. You want to filter out chlorine because it will attack the resin and shorten it's lifespan. "Hybrid water softeners" are appliances that contains a carbon filter (granulated) before the resin tank to both protect the resin by removing chlorine and to also make the water taste better. The order is sediment filter, carbon filter, and lastly a water softener. In a "hybrid water softener", the granulated carbon filter in front of the resin tank is backflushed during the resin regeneration to remove sediment and "fluff it back up" to eliminate any channels that may have formed. The granulated carbon will require eventual replacement as it becomes "overloaded" with chlorine - how soon is a function of the chlorine levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo2012 View Post
I'm going disagree with that statement. I guess you don't have a sediment filter, if you had one and you looked at your jaw would drop with the amount a Nova filter removes.

The Villages Florida

without a good sediment/carbon filter you're drinking, bathing, cooking and washing dishes in dirty or muddy water





That is called a backwards incorrect instal, carbon should be placed after NOT before the softener.

Reason is the salt added is sacrificial (extending it's life is foolish) , it's inexpensive.

The correct install is as follows softener, sediment then carbon.

But the other factor is the type of carbon, and size of the carbon containers, that's another story.

.
  #23  
Old 02-09-2015, 03:24 PM
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TRY CALGON PLATINUM DISHWASHER DETERGENT AND LEMISHINE RINSE AGENT.
Refrigerator has a filter and my water tastes fine.
  #24  
Old 02-09-2015, 04:06 PM
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When we moved here, we brought our water system with us. We have an ECO System which is about the best water system you can buy, although expensive. However, once you own it, you own it. We have not installed our system and do have find a need to do so.

I don't care where you live; after a few days you get used to the taste of the water. When using a water softener, I hate taking a shower or washing my hands and face, because you always feel slimey. And don't forget, it is salt that is used in a water softener and salt is not the greatest thing for your skin.

If you are using a liquid dishwashing detergent, get rid of it! You silverware may be ruined from it. Those liquid detergents are the worst things you can use because they are so caustic. Buy either Cascade or Finish powder or tablets and use Jet Dry liquid in the liquid dispenser in the door. These are the detergents that dishwasher manufacturers recommend. We use the Finish tablets and Jet Dry and everything in the d/w comes out spotless. We do rinse off very dirty dishes before we put them in and only use the eco (short) cycle for wash and dry. We also crack open the door a little as soon as the cycle is finished and the result is perfect when all is dry.
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  #25  
Old 02-09-2015, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Challenger View Post
Thanks for an enlightening response. As for me , I can't see a cost/ benefit reason to use these systems. Don't regularly buy bottled water either- same reason.
I'm with you 100%. People here seem to make a mountain out of a molehill about everything here, whether it be the water, the circles, pest control, dog poop, etc.

There is nothing wrong with the taste of the water here. It's just that it isn't what people are used to, that's all!

I guess this is what you have to listen to when you live in an "adult" community!
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  #26  
Old 02-09-2015, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuccillo View Post
Sure there is some sediment in the water but there is nothing to suggest it poses a health issue.
There's not some, there's a significant amount here, do you have any knowledge of what is in this so called sediment?
Sand, silt, lose scale, clay, organic materiel, suspended Iron & manganese to mention a few. this is the materiel that collects in water heaters, toilet tanks, faucet screens - shower heads, toilet mechanizes, valves etc

Quote:
You are incorrect about the placement of a sediment and carbon filter relative to a water softener.
Wrong again, not sure where you get your info from, carbon is always last in any filtration system.

As far as salt added thru softening the amount is directly calculated by the hardness of the water there is not one single value.

But not much sense in debating that point with you.

Quote:
The granulated carbon will require eventual replacement as it becomes "overloaded" with chlorine - how soon is a function of the chlorine levels.
Granulated carbon is not the right type to use, in fact Granular Activated Carbon does not remove sediment / particulate material.

With all due respect you are regurgitating miss information to readers herein.

I prefer not to debate this point further with you since you are hell bent on softeners and how you believe they work.

I have 40 years experience with water filtration!


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  #27  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:08 PM
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Oh, this gets tiring. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own set of facts. If you read my posts you would see that I indicated that some people prefer soft water - not everyone. I don't peddle this stuff so I don't care what people do.

You should go back and reread my posts as I explicitly state the order of filters if they are used with a water softener: sediment, carbon, and then a water softener. You state that "carbon is always last in any filtration system". Yes, that is true and I already stated that in my previous post but water softeners are not a filtration system. I don't think you understand what they do. Water softeners replace magnesium and calcium ions with sodium or potassium ions. Magnesium and calcium ions are what give water it's "hardness". The water softening process is not filtration but a "hybrid water softener" contains a carbon filter to remove chlorine before the ion exchange takes place (as well as trapping some sediment which is cleaned out during the resin regeneration via a backflush). Take a minute and look how "hybrid water softeners" are designed: the included carbon filter is before the resin tank. For a regular water softener (no included carbon filter), you would want to place a carbon filter, with or without an additional sediment filter, before the regular water softener. A sediment filter may extend the life of the carbon filter by trapping sediment that may clog the carbon filter before it's chlorine removal capabilities are exhausted and is worthwhile, particularly if it is a pleated filter that can be rinsed and reused for low cost. Granulated carbon is fine for removing chlorine and is used in "hybrid water softeners" because it can be backflushed. Canister based, replaceable carbon filters are typically carbon-block and cannot be backflushed. Standalone, backflush carbon filters also use granulated carbon and are backflushed to remove sediment. They can be more cost effective than canister carbon block filters. Granulated carbon will remove sediment but probably not as well as a carbon block filter or a fine sediment filter. However, it can do double duty and remove some sediment and chlorine. Anything that uses granulated carbon will eventually need to have the carbon replaced when it's ability to remove chlorine is exhausted. There is no reason to place a carbon filter after a water softener because it is then too late to protect the resin from the degenerative effects of chlorine. Here is the important point: you want a carbon filter before a water softener so you can remove chlorine which will shorten the life of the resin beads that perform the ion exchange.

Regarding sediment in the municipal water of The Villages, I will state again that the water is safe to drink. If you were pumping water from a well you might see more sediment and perhaps it would be worth filtering. It varies. Most homes on municipal water don't have any filtration and the houses and people are just fine. Essentially you are fear mongering.

Salt is not added to the water through softening. What is added is sodium, and sodium and salt are not the same thing. The amount of sodium added is proportional to the hardness of the water and I gave a typical value based on the hardness of the water in The Villages - about 20+ mgs per cup of water. I guess you didn't figure that out.

Everything I have stated is factual and easily verified. By the way, I have a dual canister 20" BB sediment and carbon block filter in front of my water softener. I have nice soft, chlorine free water and hopefully the resin tank in my water softener will last 10 years because I remove the chlorine before the water softener. I use a pleated sediment filter that can be cleaned as a way to extend the life of the chlorine filter, which is pretty expensive. Any sediment in the water in the Villages doesn't bother me and I am more than willing to drink unfiltered water at my neighbors' houses, although it doesn't taste very good from the chlorine.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova Filtration View Post
There's not some, there's a significant amount here, do you have any knowledge of what is in this so called sediment?
Sand, silt, lose scale, clay, organic materiel, suspended Iron & manganese to mention a few. this is the materiel that collects in water heaters, toilet tanks, faucet screens - shower heads, toilet mechanizes, valves etc



Wrong again, not sure where you get your info from, carbon is always last in any filtration system.

As far as salt added thru softening the amount is directly calculated by the hardness of the water there is not one single value.

But not much sense in debating that point with you.



Granulated carbon is not the right type to use, in fact Granular Activated Carbon does not remove sediment / particulate material.

With all due respect you are regurgitating miss information to readers herein.

I prefer not to debate this point further with you since you are hell bent on softeners and how you believe they work.

I have 40 years experience with water filtration!


.

Last edited by tuccillo; 02-09-2015 at 07:01 PM.
  #28  
Old 02-16-2015, 04:05 PM
LSchaef2 LSchaef2 is offline
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Your best bet is a carbon water filter for taste and to remove chemicals that disinfect the water that are not good for you (Chlorine and Chloramines) with a water softener. Then when you soften the water with a softener you save your applicances from scale and they last longer. Mike Scott Plumbing sells and installs the best SALT FREE technology available. It is called Enviro Water Products and once you install it is guaranteed softening for life and the carbon only needs to be replaced every five years. It is the best value for the money. I have one in my home and I did not drink the water until it was put in. We no longer buy bottled water for every day. We are drinking out of the tap and loving it. Mike Scott Plumbing also has a show room across from Brownwood just as you cross over route 44.
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Old 02-17-2015, 04:59 AM
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I now use a tablespoon of Lemi Shine in the bottom of my dishwasher and have clean shiny silverware again. Still researching water filters. Thanks for all the posts.
  #30  
Old 02-17-2015, 08:29 AM
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I had looked into the salt-free "water softeners". They are not really water softeners as they do not remove the calcium and magnesium ions that create the "hardness". Some people refer to them as "water conditioners". They do, however, show the ability to reduce scale built-up under some conditions. However, it appears that scale may still develop when water is mostly stagnant, such as in hot water heaters. Some people prefer the feel and other benefits of soft water and I do not believe the salt-free systems will deliver a "soft feel" as they do not remove calcium and magnesium ions. If your interest is in reducing scale build-up they may be worthwhile. I use a true water softener and it cost about $80/year for potassium chloride. If I switched to sodium chloride the cost would be less.

Carbon filters are effective at removing chlorine and have a substantial impact on the taste of water. The replaceable carbon-block filter I use lasts about a year and cost $60.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LSchaef2 View Post
Your best bet is a carbon water filter for taste and to remove chemicals that disinfect the water that are not good for you (Chlorine and Chloramines) with a water softener. Then when you soften the water with a softener you save your applicances from scale and they last longer. Mike Scott Plumbing sells and installs the best SALT FREE technology available. It is called Enviro Water Products and once you install it is guaranteed softening for life and the carbon only needs to be replaced every five years. It is the best value for the money. I have one in my home and I did not drink the water until it was put in. We no longer buy bottled water for every day. We are drinking out of the tap and loving it. Mike Scott Plumbing also has a show room across from Brownwood just as you cross over route 44.
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