[ehendersonjr]

Originally Posted by JohnN

My daughter is a university professor of microbiology. I asked her about AI and she said 11 of 47 students in her class this year used AI on their writing assignment. I was shocked it was that high!

I asked how she discovered and responded, I liked her approach (old man's DNA)
She said first, it's very obvious the student has not displayed that level of knowledge in class, previous writings, etc. She sits them in her office (one at a time of course) and asked if they used AI to plagarize, and that their response would factor into the punishment. All 11 pled guilty, 2 of them started crying. The one young man who thought he might challenge her, she replied "I liked what you wrote about genetic platicizing, can you expound on that a bit? - and he caved.

Punishment was to write a new paper, topic of her choosing, and graded one grade down - or take a zero. Without admitting guily, but proven guilty, the grade would be an F in the class and being reported to the Dean.

Our generation would not even think to do this, but times change and AI is finding it's place through trial and error. Let the college kids in your life know that scamming the university has a high degree of failure.
PS - Happy Mother's Day to all the moms

The need for artificial intelligence is inversely proportional to the availability of natural intelligence.

[Indydealmaker]

AI has to be taught. The devil is in the details...who was the teacher and what checks and balances were used during the teaching process.

[Nell57]

Originally Posted by spinner1001

Writing is an act of thinking. Using AI for writing assignments is avoiding thinking, one of the hardest parts of learning. This professor gave these 11 students a second chance at the assignment without failing them and another opportunity to develop their ability of thinking. Good for her. (They did get a penalty for cheating.) And maybe these students learned from their experience of cheating on the professor's requirements.

In general, USA students are not taught how to think critically now. It starts in schools before university. Most schools largely teach students to take and pass exams.




But there is hope for giving students a real education. There is a small but growing movement trying to push students, parents, and schools back to giving students an education for critical thinking. It looks like a classical education that has been around for centuries but mostly fallen out of favor in the USA for multiple reasons.

For example:

Classic Learning Test (CLT) - Assessments for Grades 3-12 and

CLT in Florida | CLT

Here is another perspective.
I retired from teaching 2nd grade in ‘08.
Since 2000 we had been teaching critical thinking skills to our students.
We had a lecturer instruct us that…”these students will have 10 jobs in their lives. Five of them haven’t been invented yet.” The only teaching that mattered was inductive and deductive reasoning and technology.
I also had to teach these 7 year olds the three R’s. Reading Riting and Rithmatic.
So we did multilevel teaching, just as the kids learned on many levels.
AI is a great tool to have in the toolbelt. . Teachers and students will both learn how to best use it.
And I’m sure these students will also go on to have 10 jobs, five of which haven’t been invented yet.

[SHIBUMI]

Did you know the Pope gets 33,000$ a month in pay and has no expenses and no taxes. What would Jesus say?

Originally Posted by tophcfa

The new Pope has identified AI as one of the most critical challenges facing humanity.

[SHIBUMI]

AI is no different than an open book test................as long as student is reading the material they are getting educated. There is no room for creativity but they still get knowledge and thats the bottom line.

Originally Posted by JohnN

My daughter is a university professor of microbiology. I asked her about AI and she said 11 of 47 students in her class this year used AI on their writing assignment. I was shocked it was that high!

I asked how she discovered and responded, I liked her approach (old man's DNA)
She said first, it's very obvious the student has not displayed that level of knowledge in class, previous writings, etc. She sits them in her office (one at a time of course) and asked if they used AI to plagarize, and that their response would factor into the punishment. All 11 pled guilty, 2 of them started crying. The one young man who thought he might challenge her, she replied "I liked what you wrote about genetic platicizing, can you expound on that a bit? - and he caved.

Punishment was to write a new paper, topic of her choosing, and graded one grade down - or take a zero. Without admitting guily, but proven guilty, the grade would be an F in the class and being reported to the Dean.

Our generation would not even think to do this, but times change and AI is finding it's place through trial and error. Let the college kids in your life know that scamming the university has a high degree of failure.
PS - Happy Mother's Day to all the moms

[TeresaE]

Originally Posted by Rainger99

From what I have seen, AI does a lot of things better than many humans. One of them is writing.

Would you rather have a lawyer write the closing argument or have AI write it?

Would you rather have your minister draft the sermon or have AI draft it?

I read that the average pastor reported spending 11 hours and 30 minutes in sermon preparation per week.

Unless the minister is a phenomenal writer (very few are) I think that the 11.5 hours could be better used doing something more useful. He could be counseling people, visiting the sick, etc.

I would prefer quality - whether it is written by a man or by AI.

That’s like saying it’s okay for students to just use a calculator for simple math, but that doesn’t teach them what the numbers actually mean. I want people who think and understand, not just regurgitate.

[Velvet]

Yes, but I used the calculator to teach my children in grade 3 multiplication. They made their calculation and then checked to see if they got it right. A calculator can be used just like a book, you can use it to learn and my students knew their multiplication (and as a result their division) tables orally up to 12 X 12 before they entered grade 4. Today I would teach them how to use AI.

Part of the motivation was teaching them the love of learning and the pride of achievement, not just to score on a test. Just like, I suppose a robot could be made which we could program to hit perfect hole in ones every time on the golf course - but it would not be as much fun as when we do it ourselves.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Nell57

Here is another perspective.
I retired from teaching 2nd grade in ‘08.
Since 2000 we had been teaching critical thinking skills to our students.
We had a lecturer instruct us that…”these students will have 10 jobs in their lives. Five of them haven’t been invented yet.” The only teaching that mattered was inductive and deductive reasoning and technology.
I also had to teach these 7 year olds the three R’s. Reading Riting and Rithmatic.
So we did multilevel teaching, just as the kids learned on many levels.
AI is a great tool to have in the toolbelt. . Teachers and students will both learn how to best use it.
And I’m sure these students will also go on to have 10 jobs, five of which haven’t been invented yet.

An example of how AI is being abused by kids who are clever AND lazy enough to do so. Teacher gives students an assignment. "Read Act IV and Act V of Hamlet, and write two pages, single-spaced, analyzing the dynamic between Horatio and Claudius."

Kid types into the google AI buffer: "Give me two pages, single space, analyzing the dynamic between Horatio and Claudius in Hamlet's Act 4 and 5."

Presses the enter key.
3.5 seconds later, student gets exactly that, perfectly typed, spell- and grammar- checked.

Prints it out, hands it in, gets an A.

Never learns anything about Hamlet. But who cares? The assignment was to submit an analysis, and the teacher got an analysis.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Velvet

Yes, but I used the calculator to teach my children in grade 3 multiplication. They made their calculation and then checked to see if they got it right. A calculator can be used just like a book, you can use it to learn and my students knew their multiplication (and as a result their division) tables orally up to 12 X 12 before they entered grade 4. Today I would teach them how to use AI.

We didn't have calculators. We had to learn the actual math. My mom wasn't good at math. My dad was VERY good at it. He's the one who taught me how to understand it. No calculator, none needed. I learned to add and subtract on an abacus, and with coin and paper currency as my tools.

Dad taught me the "trick" to memorizing the 9 table. 9 18 27 36 45 54 63 72 81 90 99 108 117 126 135 144 The right-most digits go 0 through 9, the digit next to them will go 9 through 0, the digit next to that one will go zero through nine, and so on into infinity. - and when you add each digit of the multiple up, and keep adding until there's only one digit, the answer is always 9. That's how you can check your math to see if you're correct. Example - 9*4782=43,038. 4+3+0+3+8=18, 1+8=9.

[Velvet]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

We didn't have calculators. We had to learn the actual math.

Yes, we used slide rulers in engineering because calculators were not invented yet. And I remember a visiting student from India who had the sin and cosine tables in his head and could finish the equations before anyone else. We challenged each other, and had fun. The poor students who just tried to get by on tests etc never enjoyed learning and probably never enjoyed their work later either. I bet Sam Altman, and Elon Musk loved what they were doing, not just trying to get an A.

OBB, you sound like you had a brilliant father. I learned my love of math from my dad too.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Velvet

Yes, we used slide rulers in engineering because calculators were not invented yet. And I remember a visiting student from India who had the sin and cosine tables in his head and could finish the equations before anyone else. We challenged each other, and had fun. The poor students who just tried to get by on tests etc never enjoyed learning and probably never enjoyed their work later either. I bet Sam Altman, and Elon Musk loved what they were doing, not just trying to get an A.

I never did well on tests, and never got past Algebra 1, even when we DID have calculators (they showed up when I got into High School). When we got those calculators, my dad would quiz me on the understanding of the math, to make sure I was actually learning the algebraic rules. I didn't learn them. I could plug the info into the calculator and it'd spit out the answer, but I never did learn HOW it worked. I could never apply it.
UNTIL I learned to code. It wasn't until then, that it finally made sense. And that was all done using physical templates, like this one: Univac Remington Rand Flowcharting Template | National Museum of American History

The visual application of algorithmic expression was the only way I was able to learn it. A calculator spitting out the answer taught me nothing, ever.

[Sandabern]

No offense to your daughter, but the actual number was probably closer to 46… And that’s a low estimate… Kids use AI like they drink water…
I don’t know whether it’s good or bad, but it’s a little similar to when math teachers let us (or didn’t let us) use calculators…

Originally Posted by JohnN

My daughter is a university professor of microbiology. I asked her about AI and she said 11 of 47 students in her class this year used AI on their writing assignment. I was shocked it was that high!

I asked how she discovered and responded, I liked her approach (old man's DNA)
She said first, it's very obvious the student has not displayed that level of knowledge in class, previous writings, etc. She sits them in her office (one at a time of course) and asked if they used AI to plagarize, and that their response would factor into the punishment. All 11 pled guilty, 2 of them started crying. The one young man who thought he might challenge her, she replied "I liked what you wrote about genetic platicizing, can you expound on that a bit? - and he caved.

Punishment was to write a new paper, topic of her choosing, and graded one grade down - or take a zero. Without admitting guily, but proven guilty, the grade would be an F in the class and being reported to the Dean.

Our generation would not even think to do this, but times change and AI is finding it's place through trial and error. Let the college kids in your life know that scamming the university has a high degree of failure.
PS - Happy Mother's Day to all the moms

[Velvet]

Yes, because of how you, OBB, used it. I taught my students how to calculate the answer and the only thing the calculator was used for was to check if their answer was correct. In grades one and two, addition and subtraction can be taught the same way (with beautiful large kindergarten calculators). However, I have to admit that in later grades I never memorized, say the logarithmic tables.

I think what you say is interesting. I taught many children successfully, but I could not get my own daughter to learn. She was simply not interested. In grades 10 she was still working at grade 3 math level. But, then, she got a job later where she needed to apply higher math skills. She loved her work and was determined to do it. She hired her own private tutor and went through each year of math she missed so that she could do her job. Finally, she had the motivation.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Velvet

Yes, because of how you, OBB, used it. I taught my students how to calculate the answer and the only thing the calculator was used for was to check if their answer was correct. In grades one and two, addition and subtraction can be taught the same way (with beautiful large kindergarten calculators). However, I have to admit that in later grades I never memorized, say the logarithmic tables.

I think what you say is interesting. I taught many children successfully, but I could not get my own daughter to learn. She was simply not interested. In grades 10 she was still working at grade 3 math level. But, then, she got a job later where she needed to apply higher math skills. She loved her work and was determined to do it. She hired her own private tutor and went through each year of math she missed so that she could do her job. Finally, she had the motivation.

It's a matter of brain wiring. Some people (such as myself) are visual and verbal thinkers. Numeric concepts don't really mean anything to us. We need to see those concepts applied to something tangible, or it goes right over our heads. Now, years later thanks to my dad and my computer programming class, I can spit out percentages without really thinking about them much at all. You give me a bunch of numbers, and I can figure out an approximate average within a few seconds, no calculator, pen or paper needed. I won't always be spot-on but I'll be pretty close to correct. I can now do it in my head. It is a visual process in my head. I imagine the numbers, I imagine writing it on paper, I imagine doing the "long math" and "long division." But it happens instantly. Because I learned the MEANING of the numbers, how they fit into the universe and their significance.

It's why, to me, kids who can't count change back should sue their teachers and their parents for not teaching them. If the total at check-out is $14.29 and you pull out a $20 bill and they plug in $20 on their cash register and open the drawer - then you say "oh wait I have four pennies!" they have no idea what they're supposed to do with that information. Their cash register has already instructed them to give them $5.71, and they've already pulled out the change (yes, I did that in my head too). You tell them you wanted quarters, not dimes. And that confuses them even more. So you have to tell them:

Subtract 4 from $14.29, since I just gave you the 4 pennies. That makes it $14.25. I give you a $20. Give me 3 quarters to make $15, and then another $5 to make $20. I mean HOW HARD IS THIS?

It's hard for them because they were never taught how to COUNT. Simple math, simple addition and subtraction. They have absolutely no idea how to do it. You can thank calculators for that.

[Velvet]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

It's a matter of brain wiring.

It's hard for them because they were never taught how to COUNT. Simple math, simple addition and subtraction. They have absolutely no idea how to do it. You can thank calculators for that.

Yes, they were taught to use the calculator as a crutch not as a reference item. My young students could do that too, but there was no pride or fun in doing it. Many games, chess, poker etc are built on math. People enjoy using their skills if you encourage it. And that is what I tried to do.

When it came to money, I asked the parents to give a small allowance to each one of my grade one child, so they could go to the store and buy gum, ice cream whatever. The students learned how much they could afford, to budget and to make change. We practiced with play money in the class.