[dewilson58]

Originally Posted by tomwed

I know I sound like a broken record but in 1970 NJ state college tuition was $350 a year and minimum wage was $1.60, so why not go to college. What did you have to loose? I discovered I wanted to teach. Back then, hardly anyone had their masters.

Today a masters is quite common and for some careers, it's entry level. We use to tell the kids [when I was a teacher] "to get a good job, get a good education". We forgot to tell them "just don't get conned into borrowing a hundred thousand dollars to do it".

I taught shop. They are dropping shop programs all over the country. Where do you think those trades people got their start? Not everyone's dad took them under their wing and taught them how to fix things and build things like mine did.

Answering the OP question............I say, "no".

Regarding your comment on Masters Degrees..............I think they are becoming less and less common...........students are finding out employers are seeing less value in a Masters Degree. (just my exposure and experience)

[sunnyatlast]

Originally Posted by justjim

It's only shameful when a child is not given the opportunity to reach their potential. That doesn't always mean a college education---sometimes it does. Reaching your potential may mean having the opportunity to be an automotive mechanic, electrician, nurse, artist, barber, house teck, teacher, truck driver, engineer or scientist. Enough to get my point.

Consider how many vital trades like automotive/truck mechanic, computer technology, electronics, medics, nursing assistants, electrical, plumbing, engineering assistants, and building trades are learned in the U.S. Armed Forces.

Then consider the condescension and utter disdain many in academia, Hollywood, and Washington have for our military……a bigger blow and insult to trades and vocational-technical education.

[rjm1cc]

Yes, most high school students should be able to succeed in college. But for some they maybe happier and more successful if they learn a trade. The opportunity to go either way should be there.

Unfortunately from talking to College professors a large number of students do not have a good educational foundation so that detracts from all college students when you have to teach at a lower level than you should be teaching.

[cavalier65]

Those who have no standards never understand what they mean. Exactly the case here.

[cavalier65]

EXactly.

[applesoffh]

Colleges are filled with people who have no idea what they want to do with their lives; yet, there are young people who want to work on cars, be electricians, etc., and they do not get the vocational help they need. Vocational High Schools have, for the most part, gone the way of black & white movies. There is a real need for these schools to exist, and teach future generations trades and skills that are, and will continue to be, needed. We have enough young people graduating with useless degrees. Yes, they spent 4 or 5 years to get them, but most have no marketable skills. They also think that starting salaries are $40,000 - $50,000 per year and are shocked to learn differently. Yes, some kids graduate with good jobs waiting for them. Most graduate with loan payments waiting for them.

[zonerboy]

The simple answer to the OP's question is No.
But that doesn't stop them from enrolling anyway. And accumulating tens of thousands of dollars of student loans in pursuit of degrees in mostly useless academic areas,
A college degree is not some sort of universal key to financial success.We are selling too many kids down the river who would be far better off attending technical or vocational schools.

[FlamingoFlo]

Originally Posted by CFrance

I think any student who can succeed in regular classes can also succeed in college. But to me, the more important factor is enabling each student to discover what it is that he/she really is interested in doing. Maybe it wouldn't involve going to college; maybe it would.

But if they're not studying something interesting to them, their chances of success are less. My opinion. I have no facts to back up that opinion. But I do have anecdotal experiences.

This was certainly true for me. I hated school and made it through two years of college courses but no degree. I got a job as a teller in a bank and fell in love with the work. The bank sent me to classes and within five years I was a manager. Retired as a VP. Loved most every minute. I started college having no idea what I wanted to do with my life.

[fred53]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Can all children who are in "regular" classes succeed in college?

Is it shameful not to? Why or why not?

why would it be shameful?...while the constitution may say "all men are created equal"...and women...it is the way of nature that some children just are not smart enough to pass college level courses...it doesn't make it any less possible to succeed if they have the drive, but again not all children are born with a drive strong enough to overcome difficulties into which they are born.

Then there are those children who just have no interest in higher education...there are other ways to measure success in life other than the bank account...unfortunately those qualities aren't as freely suggested as they once were....ie: hard work...honest labor...many aren't taught to dress for success or seek out ways to learn that schools can not offer...

[tedquick]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Can all children who are in "regular" classes succeed in college?

Is it shameful not to? Why or why not?

No, as not all in school have the intellect and/or desire to compete at the college level.

[blueash]

The purpose of a college education is NOT to get a job, it is to learn critical thinking, how to evaluate material, how to study and become skilled at ongoing education, to broaden your vistas and to explore the great and the forgotten ideas that have shaped our world. These are abilities that will be of benefit to anyone who gains them, whether in a specific field or for a person who never seeks out of home employment. In the best situations a higher education should be both broad and in some area deep. If you only think an education should be given to learn for a job, there is no reason to go to high school either. Most people didn't before the 1940's.

[sunnyatlast]

Originally Posted by blueash

The purpose of a college education is NOT to get a job, it is to learn critical thinking, how to evaluate material, how to study and become skilled at ongoing education, to broaden your vistas and to explore the great and the forgotten ideas that have shaped our world. These are abilities that will be of benefit to anyone who gains them, whether in a specific field or for a person who never seeks out of home employment. In the best situations a higher education should be both broad and in some area deep. If you only think an education should be given to learn for a job, there is no reason to go to high school either. Most people didn't before the 1940's.

I agree about the value of the liberal arts core curriculum in baccalaureate degree programs, teaching people how to learn about the Big Picture, but many young people don't have the money or interest in this coursework when they could do as the bank teller above and be happy working their way up in a "job" they enjoy and that gives them time off on weekends, holidays etc. to be with their growing family.

And yes, I do think "education should be given to learn a [specific] job", as in nursing, physician assistant, paralegal, engineer, lawyer and physician. While they are probably getting baccalaureate degrees in the process, once they become heavily invested in these "jobs" and the student debt it takes to get there, I don't think many take the plunge into a lower-paying job in which they use their liberal arts knowledge to explore broader horizons and the forgotten ideas that shaped our world.

They have to repay their own educational debts and save for that of their children who will hopefully aim toward "getting a JOB".

[Nightengale212]

I think all children if they have the interest can succeed in higher education, but some require different preparatory paths beyond high school giving them a better foundation to achieve the educational goals they desire. Joining the military can be one of those preparatory paths.

My hairdresser's husband is a stellar example of one of those individuals who achieved great success with the military being his foundation. He enlisted in the Navy right out of high school in 1964 and obtained his BA while on active duty. He continued his Navy career going to officer's candidate school, then got his MA, Phd, and retired as a Lt. Commander as well as became a full Professor at the Naval War College. Their son followed Dad's footsteps, except he went to Annapolis right out of high school.

[tomwed]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Can all children who are in "regular" classes succeed in college?

I'm not sure. It depends what you mean by regular.

The high school where I taught had 4 levels for students; special education, general, college prep and advanced placement. The 4 levels begin with 1 as the lowest level.

no for regular [[level 1 and 2] yes [college prep and advanced placement [level 3 and 4]]
If:
The teacher is professional.
The coursework is challenging.
The grading is honest.

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Is it shameful not to? Why or why not?

no for regular [[level 1 and 2] yes [college prep and advanced placement [level 3 and 4]]
It would be a shame to handicap a student by not providing a professional teacher who makes the curriculum relevant and challenging and grades the student's work honestly.
It's a shame when students are placed in level 3 and 4 courses but unwilling to do the work.

[CharTalk]

Whenever you start a sentence with "All people should . . . " you should probably stop. Very little in life is for everyone.

Personally, I think the reason for college goes far beyond career preparation. My father always told me, "College is not a trade school." I truly believe he was right. He was one of the brightest, most well read, thoughtful people I ever knew even though he only had an 8th grade education. He was born in 1894 - a time when a college degree was rare - and had to quit school to work to help support his mother and sisters. Not having a chance for a college education was his biggest regret in life and he planned for mine from the day I was born. Consequently, I grew up with a high regard for college and ended up being a college professor.

For me - college opened my mind and taught me to see the world from many different perspectives. I am a lifelong learner and even in retirement try to learn at least three new things a day. This has kept me young, and still feel a sense of wonder when I experience the world around me.

I am so grateful for my college education.

Is it for everyone? Of course, not. There are many kinds of intelligence. College primarily caters to people with high verbal and mathematical intelligence. I have those, but I can't carry a tune, paint a picture, design a building or find my car in the Publix parking lot. Those talents require a different way of thinking and often can be nurtured in institutions other than higher education.

From my experiencing teaching at the college level, any student of at least average intelligence with the right motivation can succeed in college if they pick the right college and the right major. It isn't always the brightest students who graduate at the top of their class. And it's not always the Harvard Valedictorians who succeeds in life.

No one should feel pressured into going, but everyone who wants the experience deserves the chance to have it.