[dkrhardy]

What I saw was a man firing most of his shots at fleeing criminals. Toward their backs, and very close to bystanders. If he wasn't good enough to hit the bad guys, he could have easily hit someone else whith what were obviously wild shots!
Don

[Indydealmaker]

Originally Posted by quirky3

Holy cow! I'm not really fond of our discussions about carrying concealed weapons, but check this out - - from Ocala!!
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
Fess up, Figmo!!

Something tells me that Figmo, in the event that he decided the situation called for drawing his weapon, would not have missed em.

[hulababy]

loved it. that's why we need to keep the "right to bear arms" What if he didn't have a gun??

[hulababy]

Figmo I'm ready to buy my gun??

[rp001]

Actually my understanding is he hit both of these guys...Probably should have used the good old 45 vs 380...I wouldn't want to be hit by either...Figmo can correct me but it is my understanding that the 45 auto was developed for the Marines in ww2 for use as a close in weapon..Seems you don't have to be a good shot, just hit em and they go down..I can easily see where a couple of crackheads running away could stop and return fire if they were not in fear of the geezer peppering them..I'd keep shootin..Not that I like her, but I did like what Sara P said..."Don't retreat, reload"

[ajbrown]

Originally Posted by Figmo Bohica

On this one I have to agree with you. No one was being threatened with immediate harm, especially the CWL holder from what the video clip shows. Once he fired one shot and then once the trio started running for the door the shooter and all the others where no longer under any threat and from the video evidence he chased them to the door and kept shooting. Stress and tunnel vision where in play. Under Florida law once the threat is no longer in your face and you keep shooting you can be charged with a felony crime. I really don't think that we have heard the last of this unless there is more to this that then the short clip shows, that has been posted. Have to wait for the full investigation to be completed.

Also unless you go to the range often, like more than once a year, doing what the old guy did could result in law suits from shooting bystanders. If you don't shoot under stress, and this situation would have been stressfull for sure, you develope tunnel vision and only see what is in front of you.

So, what would I have done. I would have carefully drawn my firearm, keeping it hidden from sight, then if the trio of bad guys started hurting anyone I would have then taken action, its the "stand in their shoes" rule. Google that, its interesting and tells a lot about self defense situations here in Florida.

On a side note, have you noticed that all the signs at Walmart, "No weapons allowed" have been removed. That stems from an incident in Albuquerque, NW, where a 70 plus year old gentleman killed an ex-husband of a Walmart employee who was in the act of stabbing her to death. He was justified in his actions, for if he would not have acted the women would have been killed. That is an example of "standing in their shoes" rule. It is the same as if it is happening to you, personally.

When you obtain a concealed carry permit it does not make you a "de facto" police officer. It is for your protection, the protection of your loved ones or someone who is actually being harmed, killed or likely to cause great body harm. Your best defense is aviodance, deterence and to be the best witness that you can. If you can safely grab your cell phone, call 911 and then video the incident, but be ready to protect yourself and those around you.

Now come take my class on self defense, join a shooting club and really learn how to shoot and when to shoot, then being able to actually hit the target is a benefit of all this training.

Have a happy day.

Nice post, articulated well, you should have been on half the talk shows that covered this. Thanks for taking the time.

[Disclaimer: not against guns, not currently an owner, just enjoyed the post]

[Figmo Bohica]

Originally Posted by rp001

Actually my understanding is he hit both of these guys...Probably should have used the good old 45 vs 380...I wouldn't want to be hit by either...Figmo can correct me but it is my understanding that the 45 auto was developed for the Marines in ww2 for use as a close in weapon..Seems you don't have to be a good shot, just hit em and they go down..I can easily see where a couple of crackheads running away could stop and return fire if they were not in fear of the geezer peppering them..I'd keep shootin..Not that I like her, but I did like what Sara P said..."Don't retreat, reload"

Actually the 45 ACP was developed during the Phillipine police action. Seems that the locals would drug up and the standard at the time .38 special did not have enough stopping power to put them down. So after many test calibers the 45ACP was adopted to replace the .38 revolver. Several reasons, one being the additional stopping power, 230 grain bullet, plus faster reloads. Magazine vs cylinder. The difference between been hit with a 45 vs a 38 is like being hit by sand (38) a bus (45). A great home defense weapon is a shotgun shooting slugs. At 25 yards a 1 oz slug has between 2500 and 3000 foot pounds of energy. It will knock you down no matter where it hits you. But it also will penatrate several walls so you have to be careful when using this type of home defense. Actually for here in the Villages if you wanted a good home defense weapon, pick a shotgun, loaded with 7 1/2 or 8 shot. Still have the 1 1/8 oz of lead but is you miss and it hits a wall, window or any solid object, it will not penatrate and keeping going, but at a range of 6 to 10 yards, it will take the bad guy down. BTW, you will still need to aim, no spray and pray.

Here is an interesting article concerning stopping power that is posted on our local IDPA website The Problem with Stopping Power It explains a lot and is educational to the non-shooter. Hollywood has really clouded the stopping power of firearms. It looks really good for the bad guy to be tossed across the room when shoot, but in real life this does not happen. There is only a couple shoulder fired weapons that will do that. The .50 cal has such hydrostatic shock that it does blow the body apart, 650 grains of lead hitting you is a terrible shock to the system. High speed rounds, like the 5.56mm NATO, AR15, M$4, etc., pass through the body quickly and unless it hits a bone or major organ, does little damage.

The 380 that was used in the video requires extreme shot placement to be effective. But, bigger is not always better. Carrying the huge Smith and Wesson 500 S&W hand cannon might seem good, but if you can't hit anything with it, you are better off with the puny 380. I have had husbands bring their wives to me for CWL training and leave them with a 45, 40 or a 9mm. Some of the ladies could handle these caliber very well, some where scared of the recoil and noise. Also I have had guys that think they can shoot the larger calibers but can't hit the inside of a paper sack whle inside that sack. They are afrid of the recoil but won't admit it. It does not matter what caliber you carry, if you can't hit the target, it best to carry a pocket full of rocks. Surprisingly enough, the caliber that kills more people, other than military calibers, is the overlooked 22 long rifle.

For some really good information on handguns and shooting opportunites please check out our local IDPA club at Eustis Gun Club - IDPA Then come join us once in a while and have fun learning how to properly handle a firearm, safely while having fun shooting. Who knows, you might find it enjoyable and fun.

[De Lis]

Originally Posted by k2at

That guy is crazy. If he had shot an innocent bystander he could lose all he has and maybe more. One does not just go ahead and spray the area with bullets. He should have let them run and called the cops. As they were fleeing, they presented no threat to him and therefore the use of deadly force was not justified. By the way, I am not a tree hugger, am a licensed concealed carry individual and I would not hesitate to use my handgun if I feared for my life. The one point stressed in class is the best defense is to run away.

OK, start flaming me.

My gosh, I saw this article in a British newspaper yesterday morning. No fanning of the flames from me as this will become the reimurgence of the Wild West. This incident will simply reinforce all the nut cases out there.

[quirky3]

Originally Posted by Figmo Bohica

On this one I have to agree with you. No one was being threatened with immediate harm, especially the CWL holder from what the video clip shows. Once he fired one shot and then once the trio started running for the door the shooter and all the others where no longer under any threat and from the video evidence he chased them to the door and kept shooting. Stress and tunnel vision where in play. Under Florida law once the threat is no longer in your face and you keep shooting you can be charged with a felony crime. I really don't think that we have heard the last of this unless there is more to this that then the short clip shows, that has been posted. Have to wait for the full investigation to be completed.

Also unless you go to the range often, like more than once a year, doing what the old guy did could result in law suits from shooting bystanders. If you don't shoot under stress, and this situation would have been stressfull for sure, you develope tunnel vision and only see what is in front of you.

So, what would I have done. I would have carefully drawn my firearm, keeping it hidden from sight, then if the trio of bad guys started hurting anyone I would have then taken action, its the "stand in their shoes" rule. Google that, its interesting and tells a lot about self defense situations here in Florida.

On a side note, have you noticed that all the signs at Walmart, "No weapons allowed" have been removed. That stems from an incident in Albuquerque, NW, where a 70 plus year old gentleman killed an ex-husband of a Walmart employee who was in the act of stabbing her to death. He was justified in his actions, for if he would not have acted the women would have been killed. That is an example of "standing in their shoes" rule. It is the same as if it is happening to you, personally.

When you obtain a concealed carry permit it does not make you a "de facto" police officer. It is for your protection, the protection of your loved ones or someone who is actually being harmed, killed or likely to cause great body harm. Your best defense is aviodance, deterence and to be the best witness that you can. If you can safely grab your cell phone, call 911 and then video the incident, but be ready to protect yourself and those around you.

Now come take my class on self defense, join a shooting club and really learn how to shoot and when to shoot, then being able to actually hit the target is a benefit of all this training.

Have a happy day.

Figmo, thank you for that post. I am impressed with your philosophy of moderation and restraint

[CaptJohn]

Originally Posted by Figmo Bohica

Actually the 45 ACP was developed during the Phillipine police action. Seems that the locals would drug up and the standard at the time .38 special did not have enough stopping power to put them down. So after many test calibers the 45ACP was adopted to replace the .38 revolver. Several reasons, one being the additional stopping power, 230 grain bullet, plus faster reloads. Magazine vs cylinder.

A little fine tuning, if you don't mind. The semi auto pistol was beginning development then but the 45 acp was not in reality until about 1907 and adopted by the army in 1911, navy and marines in 1913.
The Phillipine Insurrection was from 1899-1902. As stated, the 38 long Colt caliber (not special) in the Colt Model 1892 wasn't doing the job so the U. S. Army brought back the old standard Colt Single Action Army revolver in 45 long Colt caliber that was used from 1873 (Indian Wars and old west) til about 1895. This is the revolver you see on the old westerns. They were deemed obsolete but they worked! Before being sent to the Phillipines, they were reworked in the arsenal and barrels were cut down from 7.5 inches to 5.5 inches as they were being transformed from cavalry revolvers to infantry revolvers. They are some of the rarest to be found in collecting circles.
Also used was a Colt double action revolver from 1878 that was renamed the Model 1902 with an enlarged trigger and trigger guard, which was also in 45 long Colt caliber. Since those 45's proved themselves as sure stoppers the Army later adopted the John Browning developed 45 semi auto in the year 1911, hence the name Colt (which made them) Model 1911 Government semi auto 45 acp caliber (a short version of the 45 long Colt) which was used in WWI and WWII until the 1970's when the army went to the 9mm. To be a collector is to be a historian.

[Posh 08]

Bless his heart.

[buggyone]

Originally Posted by CaptJohn

A little fine tuning, if you don't mind. The semi auto pistol was beginning development then but the 45 acp was not in reality until about 1907 and adopted by the army in 1911, navy and marines in 1913.
The Phillipine Insurrection was from 1899-1902. As stated, the 38 long Colt caliber (not special) in the Colt Model 1892 wasn't doing the job so the U. S. Army brought back the old standard Colt Single Action Army revolver in 45 long Colt caliber that was used from 1873 (Indian Wars and old west) til about 1895. This is the revolver you see on the old westerns. They were deemed obsolete but they worked! Before being sent to the Phillipines, they were reworked in the arsenal and barrels were cut down from 7.5 inches to 5.5 inches as they were being transformed from cavalry revolvers to infantry revolvers. They are some of the rarest to be found in collecting circles.
Also used was a Colt double action revolver from 1878 that was renamed the Model 1902 with an enlarged trigger and trigger guard, which was also in 45 long Colt caliber. Since those 45's proved themselves as sure stoppers the Army later adopted the John Browning developed 45 semi auto in the year 1911, hence the name Colt (which made them) Model 1911 Government semi auto 45 acp caliber (a short version of the 45 long Colt) which was used in WWI and WWII until the 1970's when the army went to the 9mm. To be a collector is to be a historian.

Alright now - are you ready to R U M B L E?

Figmo vs Capt John in a furious flurry of fanatical facts at 10 paces.

[Figmo Bohica]

Nay, Buggy, the CPT J is right. My bad. Got the dates wrong, but the development of the 45 ACP was correct.

Here's how it came about:

455 Webley is a British handgun cartridge, most commonly used in the Webley top break revolvers Marks I through VI.

The .455 cartridge was a service revolver cartridge, featuring a rimmed cartridge firing a .45 bullet at the relatively low velocity of 650 ft/s (190 m/s). The result was a cartridge and handgun combination with relatively mild recoil, but with good penetration and excellent stopping power. It was rated superior to the .45 Colt in stopping power in the disputed United States Thompson-LaGarde Tests of 1904 that resulted in the adoption by the U.S. of the .45 ACP cartridge.

The development of military cartridges sometimes take quirky twists and turns, but Uncle Sam got it right on the 45 ACP. Lots of rumors that the military might be going back to the old 1911. Most of the special ops are armed with them as their sidearm. Some are even issued the M14 in 308 and a few M1 Garands are flowing around. Somethings never change.

CPT J, I don't collect them, I just shoot them, and rather well I must say.

[CaptJohn]

Originally Posted by Figmo Bohica

The development of military cartridges sometimes take quirky twists and turns, but Uncle Sam got it right on the 45 ACP. Lots of rumors that the military might be going back to the old 1911. Most of the special ops are armed with them as their sidearm. Some are even issued the M14 in 308 and a few M1 Garands are flowing around. Somethings never change.

CPT J, I don't collect them, I just shoot them, and rather well I must say.

Thanks Figmo. I shoot some also and would be proud to join you when I get there. My Father was a rifle coach in the USMC in CA during WWII before he went to Iwo Jima and Hiroshima. I was trained by him to shoot since the age of 6
and I dare not make a careless mistake in handling one! The 45's been my favorite since i was old enough to hold one. The 1911 is over 100 years old and still going strong! Not many things you can say that about these days.

Hope Buggy is not disappointed. No shootout! We'll leave that to the girl's posse. The facts are always the facts and the correct weaving helps keep them in order. I had forgotten about the 455 Webley.

Yes, some of the special units are going back to the 45 and many never left it. They KNOW what works! It was political to change to the 9mm. Good old PC crowd put some of our guys in danger again by being underpowered.
Now a 1911 38 Super I'd agree with!
36 years NRA Life.
Oh, and I can really appreciate the saying on the angel and flintlock! I shoot those also. Keep your powder dry!

[Figmo Bohica]

CPT John, I know that Buggyone will be broken hearted that we did not meet at high noon and blaze away. Sorry Buggy, but that movie has been played before and is old hat. But fact are facts and I should have look up the dates, knew why the 45 ACP was developed just got the timing out of timing.

I have a 1911 in 38 super. Expensive to shoot so rebarreled it to 9mm. A pleasure to shot and lots cheaper. Still have the 38 Super barrel so can convert back if and when they ever come down in price. It is a hot round, lots of folks call it a 9mm on steriods.

Will be looking forward to meeting you. Give a yell when you get down this way and I will take you out to the Eustis Gun Club and show you around. They have a really good range with lots of activities, from military rifle to 5 stand and everything in between.