[janmcn]

What happens in the not too distant future when whites are the minority race? Will whites be begging for an affirmative action-like policy? Whites recently became the minority in California.

[looneycat]

Originally Posted by BarryRX

Perhaps, it would give us a little more clarity if we looked at the question another way. What if we asked the question "have you ever benefited from racism?" I think most of us would very quickly say a resounding NO! But is it true? My grandparents emigrated here from Europe about 100 years ago. I doubt if they would have been allowed to emigrate here if they were black. Remember for how many years we had the "Chinese Exclusion Act" which prohibited any Chinese people from coming here. How about getting an education? Did any of your ancestors benefit from an education that was totally unavailable to black people? Remember, the integration of most schools just happened about 50 years ago. How about getting a job? Did any of your ancestors get a job based on superior education and training that was unavailable to black people? How many black people did any of us work alongside in the 60's? (Military service excepted). So, my point is that in many ways we have all benefited from racism. First in being allowed to come to the land of opportunity when others were not based on the color of their skin. Next in being allowed to pursue an education when others were not based on the color of their skin. Next, in being considered for a job based on the color of their skin. The question is not whether or not affirmative action was EVER needed to correct past injustices. The question we should now be asking is whether or not affirmative action has accomplished its purpose and should now be discarded. What I say next may surprise you, but I believe that with the election of a black President, that affirmative action has done its job and we should now return to a strictly merit based system. But, I will never agree that it wasn't necessary in the first place.

hmmm, let's see, my father couldn't get a job because his name was too ethnic (Jewish), he changed his name and had a job within a week, because jewish isn't a color. I went to college on both my and my father's hard work. There were black people in my classes then.
I held a bunch of miserable jobs until I re-educated myself in the 'new' (well at that time) world of computers and never looked back from there. If affirmative action was to succeed then by now those people helped would have instilled a respect for education and job skills in their children and the problem would have solved itself, but freebies don't create workers they create takers who don't connect financial gains with work or careers but rather just putting their hands out and saying pity poor me.affirmative action? screw affirmative action, what truly works is work itself.

[twinklesweep]

Originally Posted by looneycat

hmmm, let's see, my father couldn't get a job because his name was too ethnic (Jewish), he changed his name and had a job within a week, because jewish isn't a color. I went to college on both my and my father's hard work. There were black people in my classes then.
I held a bunch of miserable jobs until I re-educated myself in the 'new' (well at that time) world of computers and never looked back from there. If affirmative action was to succeed then by now those people helped would have instilled a respect for education and job skills in their children and the problem would have solved itself, but freebies don't create workers they create takers who don't connect financial gains with work or careers but rather just putting their hands out and saying pity poor me.affirmative action? screw affirmative action, what truly works is work itself.

My college education was a freebie in that admission was based solely on academics, that is, one’s high school grade point average. Absolutely nothing else was considered—not race, not religion, not gender, not legal status, not the connotation of one’s surname, not community involvement—strictly by the numbers. The cutoff for admission versus non-admission was also determined strictly by the numbers; that is, one year the cutoff might have been a GPA of 91, while the following year 87, depending on the number of students applying and what their GPAs were.

First, I disagree with the premise above [bold emphasis mine] that “freebies don't create workers they create takers who don't connect financial gains with work or careers but rather just putting their hands out and saying pity poor me.” I cannot even speculate on the source of such an attitude (though several thoughts come to mind…). This college consistently produced a disproportionate number of award-winning, extraordinarily successful achievers, some with accomplishments that resulted in worldwide benefits to others. These awards and achievements would not have happened otherwise, which would have been a great loss from local community to universal.

Second, there are drawbacks—some not terribly important, some quite potentially serious—to the manner of selection based solely on academics, which is what some posters are suggesting. Using myself as an example, I went through high school without giving an iota of time to citizenship, community service, extracurricular activities, school service, and so forth. To be honest, there were legitimate reasons for my poor performance (or “non performance” is more accurate) in these ways: There were serious family health and economic issues that necessitated my working as soon as I was legally old enough to do so while arranging a school schedule that got me out as early as possible during the school day. However, I had classmates who were totally lacking in any sense of community, voluntarism, service, yet they had access to a free college education based on academics! One alleged psychopath (later diagnosed by a professional) was arrested and subsequently convicted for rape and violent assault—but his grades were great!

What potentially viable students missed out on a college education because their GPAs were a hundredth of a point less, who were beaten out (no pun intended) by, among others, a psychopath? So, IMHO, many factors need to be considered, and determining which should be taken into account is no easy feat. But to glibly insist that we go solely by numbers rather than by the human individuals in the select pool, ostensibly in the interest of fairness (or possibly some other agenda) might benefit some but could end up detrimental overall, notwithstanding the successes of the college I attended in the manner that they employed back then. I might add that the college no longer follows the strictly rigid, “GPA-elitist” path but now looks at each potential student individually. At least the powers-that-be are able to recognize a wrong and make it as right as it possibly can be. This is not a simple issue….

[CFrance]

"but freebies don't create workers they create takers who don't connect financial gains with work or careers but rather just putting their hands out and saying pity poor me.affirmative action? screw affirmative action, what truly works is work itself."

It amazes me when bold statements are made that paint an entire segment of population with the same brush. I would love to see statistics backing up the above statement.

And then I would love to see them applied to my niece, whose free-ride to Washington University in St. Louis enabled her to now be working in the field of sustainable architecture. And I do mean working,the same way she worked diligently all through high school and college. Oh, and she's Jewish.

If they had affirmative action back when your father was looking for a job, he wouldn't have had to change his name. My hope is we will not slide backward.

[perrjojo]

If this subject really interests you I must recommend a book WHITE GUILT and Blacks and Whites Together Destroyed the Civil Rights Movement by Shelby Steele. Steele was born to a Black father and a white Mother. I think it gives a very interesting account of how think we're meant to be and how they are.

[looneycat]

Originally Posted by CFrance

"but freebies don't create workers they create takers who don't connect financial gains with work or careers but rather just putting their hands out and saying pity poor me.affirmative action? screw affirmative action, what truly works is work itself."

It amazes me when bold statements are made that paint an entire segment of population with the same brush. I would love to see statistics backing up the above statement.

And then I would love to see them applied to my niece, whose free-ride to Washington University in St. Louis enabled her to now be working in the field of sustainable architecture. And I do mean working,the same way she worked diligently all through high school and college. Oh, and she's Jewish.

If they had affirmative action back when your father was looking for a job, he wouldn't have had to change his name. My hope is we will not slide backward.

so you agree with me...they got to college based on a respect for education and hard work. I worked hard as well, I turned 20 a month after I graduated from NYU. A scholarship for academic achievement is not a freebie and you cheapen it by calling it one as did the prior poster. Oh and they had affirmative action then, they fought the big one, wwII, and marched in the streets and weren't all that clear on what their ideals were.

[looneycat]

Oh, I should clarify that my father couldn't find a job on his return from serving in wwII after enlisting for the war.

[CFrance]

No, it's pretty clear I do not agree with your blanket statement that freebies don't create workers. Nor do I agree with and all the rest of what's in that sentence.

[Indydealmaker]

Possibly you all should clarify your disdain for freebies (which I share). Qualify the freebies as unearned freebies. In other words not scholarships and grants for education which normally require some performance qualifiers.

It is always easy to point out the exception to the rule. The niece, granddaughter, son of a friend, etc. who get a break and climb out of the pit to excel. The reality is that hand outs are not hand ups. If this was invalid we would be buried in data showing the success of all of the welfare programs. Yet, no one trumpets a myriad of such success stories, only hit and miss anecdotes.

Those voting with their hearts have got to dig deep to realize that continued hand outs serve to enslave the recipients. We need to rework public assistance in such a manner that everyone can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

[BarryRX]

Originally Posted by looneycat

hmmm, let's see, my father couldn't get a job because his name was too ethnic (Jewish), he changed his name and had a job within a week, because jewish isn't a color. I went to college on both my and my father's hard work. There were black people in my classes then.
I held a bunch of miserable jobs until I re-educated myself in the 'new' (well at that time) world of computers and never looked back from there. If affirmative action was to succeed then by now those people helped would have instilled a respect for education and job skills in their children and the problem would have solved itself, but freebies don't create workers they create takers who don't connect financial gains with work or careers but rather just putting their hands out and saying pity poor me.affirmative action? screw affirmative action, what truly works is work itself.

I actually think that you've made my point. Your Dad couldn't get a job because his name was too ethnic, so he changed his name and had a job within a week. He experienced terrible discrimination and was denied employment he was qualified for because of his ethnicity. But he changed his name and got a job within a week. Now imagine if you will that your Dad was black. Changing his name wouldn't have helped, would it? He would have been denied employment and that just might have had a negative impact on the way your life turned out. According to historian David Oshinsky, on writing about Jonas Salk, "Most of the surrounding medical schools (Cornell, Columbia, Pennsylvania, and Yale) had rigid quotas in place. In 1935 Yale accepted 76 applicants from a pool of 501. About 200 of those applicants were Jewish and only five got in." He notes that the dean's instructions were remarkably precise: "Never admit more than five Jews, take only two Italian Catholics, and take no blacks at all." Jews and Catholics could hide their religion or change their names, but Blacks couldn't change anything. But to return to my original premise, I don't believe that the argument should be whether affirmative action should have ever existed to correct centuries of racial discrimination, but should be whether or not it has accomplished its goal and should now be ended. As I said before, I have seen no metrics that can measure its effectiveness, and I think its time for it to end.

[looneycat]

Originally Posted by Indydealmaker

Possibly you all should clarify your disdain for freebies (which I share). Qualify the freebies as unearned freebies. In other words not scholarships and grants for education which normally require some performance qualifiers.

It is always easy to point out the exception to the rule. The niece, granddaughter, son of a friend, etc. who get a break and climb out of the pit to excel. The reality is that hand outs are not hand ups. If this was invalid we would be buried in data showing the success of all of the welfare programs. Yet, no one trumpets a myriad of such success stories, only hit and miss anecdotes.

Those voting with their hearts have got to dig deep to realize that continued hand outs serve to enslave the recipients. We need to rework public assistance in such a manner that everyone can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

amen....

[looneycat]

Originally Posted by BarryRX

I actually think that you've made my point. Your Dad couldn't get a job because his name was too ethnic, so he changed his name and had a job within a week. He experienced terrible discrimination and was denied employment he was qualified for because of his ethnicity. But he changed his name and got a job within a week. Now imagine if you will that your Dad was black. Changing his name wouldn't have helped, would it? He would have been denied employment and that just might have had a negative impact on the way your life turned out. According to historian David Oshinsky, on writing about Jonas Salk, "Most of the surrounding medical schools (Cornell, Columbia, Pennsylvania, and Yale) had rigid quotas in place. In 1935 Yale accepted 76 applicants from a pool of 501. About 200 of those applicants were Jewish and only five got in." He notes that the dean's instructions were remarkably precise: "Never admit more than five Jews, take only two Italian Catholics, and take no blacks at all." Jews and Catholics could hide their religion or change their names, but Blacks couldn't change anything. But to return to my original premise, I don't believe that the argument should be whether affirmative action should have ever existed to correct centuries of racial discrimination, but should be whether or not it has accomplished its goal and should now be ended. As I said before, I have seen no metrics that can measure its effectiveness, and I think its time for it to end.

yup...I did say, you did quote me after all, because jewish is not a color, so don't get offended if I ignore that part of your statement,as to affirmative action, you are agreeing with me...so...great!