Casey - Innocent until proven guilty?

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  #76  
Old 06-03-2011, 12:51 PM
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What's amazing is that the defense, of course, had seen all of the jail videos that were shown today, well in advance of the trial, and knew that the jury would see them too, and they obviously nevertheless have a plan to offer Casey's drowning/sexual abuse scenario into evidence. I cannot imagine any way other than through Casey testifying that this could come in; it would have to be from someone who witnessed these things, and presumably she is the only one other than George (who has already denied both).

Unless she just throws in the towel, I can't think of anything that Casey could say other than, I assume(??!!), that she and her dad couldn't talk about the 'real' truth (the drowning) in front of Cindy, plus they knew that the jailhouse conversations would become evidence, and so that she and her dad were still 'playacting ' to bolster their concocted account that the nanny had abducted Caylee. ( I did not believe that alot of George's trial testimony was credible, but his demeanor on the jail videotapes certainly makes him seem totally noncomplicit; if he was 'acting' he sure convinced me). Casey will probably also have to say that that is why she chose George for the one visitor she was allowed to see 'off the record', ie, so that they could talk in confidence about what had 'really' happened. I think if/when she says this at trial it will be amazing to watch. Unfortunately for her, she has gotten herself into a place, as much as she has undeniably lied about all sorts of things, that I doubt anything she will testify to would be believed (even if some of it is the truth). But - if other evidence might in some way support her testimony, she still has a chance.

What the jail videotapes did do for Casey is show that both of her parents, and apparently many other people according to what the parents were telling Casey, found Casey loveable, and thought she was a great mother.

After seeing some of this morning's jail videotapes, I still have doubt that Casey intentionally murdered Caylee, although it's certainly possible, because she apparently is at least somewhat crazy and is a diabolical liar (how else could she bear to put her mother - and father, if he actually was noncomplicit, as he claims - through the torment that she did in those jail conversations, pulling every heartstring and guilt trip she could to make them work harder to get her out of jail on bail, and professing over and over how she could just 'feel in her heart' that Caylee was nearby and would be found soon, knowing all along that Caylee was dead) and I don't know much about the subject of craziness. But I'm thinking it's still more probable that Casey - because she seems to at least think (narcissisticly? - is this the correct term that I'm searching for here?) - that she is very smart, and probably she is to some degree, because her family and friends had bought her lies about her job and nanny, etc., for years; and so she probably thought she could outsmart the system - made up an outrageous web of lies, which is now backfiring on her, trying to get out of responsibility for having in some way, probably by oversedating her, accidently killed Caylee. If that's the case, the huge web of lies to cover that up do not turn it into murder 1, but a lesser murder conviction or a manslaughter conviction would be appropriate.
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Last edited by Freeda; 06-05-2011 at 07:30 AM.
  #77  
Old 06-03-2011, 01:16 PM
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In order to understand Casey (and OJ as well) you should read "The Sociopath Next Door" by Harvard Professor and psycotherapist Martha Stout. One in 25 people are sociopaths. It may well change the way you think about behavior. You can order it from Amazon.com.
  #78  
Old 06-03-2011, 03:03 PM
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OK the defense has convinced me that Casey is innocent and she should be allowed to get right up from her chair and walk right out of that courtroom
  #79  
Old 06-05-2011, 05:54 AM
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Default What is your opinion of Baez?

I know his job is to give Casey "due process"...BUT I've got to tell you, his technique for cross-examining makes me NUTS!....Most of the witnesses, I find credible....Why did he find it necessary to dig in the FBI witnesses past in 2000 and tell the jury that she failed some stupid test...Sure wish someone could ask him HOW MANY TIMES HE HAD TO RETAKE HIS BOARDS!
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:58 AM
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This is someone's opinion that I read on Facebook and it could be a possibility'

"Okay, I've been watching this sad case about the little girl in Florida. Here's what I think: I think she accidentally drowned but, the mom was so narsicistic and didn't want anyone to think she let it happen so she tried to cover it up. i do think she's a pathelogical liar and I think she is surprised that her family won't go along with the web of lies she started."

I haven't been watching the trial closely...just the cliff-notes version during the news. It's enough for me as it's a nauseating situation at best, to think about. I cannot imagine a mother doing that then lying about it PLUS the fact she could go for over a month (and beyond) "acting" as though nothing is wrong. It's just beyond me!!!!!
  #81  
Old 06-05-2011, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by JenAjd View Post
This is someone's opinion that I read on Facebook and it could be a possibility'

"Okay, I've been watching this sad case about the little girl in Florida. Here's what I think: I think she accidentally drowned but, the mom was so narsicistic and didn't want anyone to think she let it happen so she tried to cover it up. i do think she's a pathelogical liar and I think she is surprised that her family won't go along with the web of lies she started."

I haven't been watching the trial closely...just the cliff-notes version during the news. It's enough for me as it's a nauseating situation at best, to think about. I cannot imagine a mother doing that then lying about it PLUS the fact she could go for over a month (and beyond) "acting" as though nothing is wrong. It's just beyond me!!!!!
I just don't believe that there would have been a need to put duct tape on Caylee's mouth had she drowned. Absolutely no need whatsoever. She would have already been dead!! In my mind the prosecution's case is going to come down to the duct tape and chloroform. Caylee was going to be silenced one way or another, whether she was having a tantrum and Casey couldn't stand it or whether she wanted to go out to a club and Caylee was in her way of a good time. The whole "drowning in the pool" theory makes no sense based on the evidence found on Caylee's body and the internet searches that were done on chloroform, neck-breaking, etc. They will prove that this WAS premeditated murder in one degree or another. I think that some of Casey's lying behavior has rubbed off on Mr. Baez.....the drowning story reeks of another big lie. I can't imagine this lawyer coming up with such a stupid defense in light of the evidence in this case. Any credibility he may have had with me drowned the day he presented this outrageous story to the jury.
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  #82  
Old 06-05-2011, 10:48 AM
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I just don't believe that there would have been a need to put duct tape on Caylee's mouth had she drowned. Absolutely no need whatsoever. She would have already been dead!! In my mind the prosecution's case is going to come down to the duct tape and chloroform. Caylee was going to be silenced one way or another, whether she was having a tantrum and Casey couldn't stand it or whether she wanted to go out to a club and Caylee was in her way of a good time. The whole "drowning in the pool" theory makes no sense based on the evidence found on Caylee's body and the internet searches that were done on chloroform, neck-breaking, etc. They will prove that this WAS premeditated murder in one degree or another. I think that some of Casey's lying behavior has rubbed off on Mr. Baez.....the drowning story reeks of another big lie. I can't imagine this lawyer coming up with such a stupid defense in light of the evidence in this case. Any credibility he may have had with me drowned the day he presented this outrageous story to the jury.
The only other reason for the duct tape that I can see would be to support the kidnapping story if and when the body was found. Unless it can be proved that she was still alive when it was applied, it very likely was not the cause of death. After autopsy, the medical examiner said in her press conference that the exact cause of death could not be determined but that it was homicide.

I've not only been following this on TV but on Tony Pipitone's blog. He puts out a lot of good information. He seems to be the only reporter without bias either way. (One poster on the blog pointed this out by saying that a reporter on one of the other channels had basically already called her guilty.) One thing he brought out is that in Florida, homicide is not always murder. That surprised me because I thought that that was just another word for murder. Apparently not so.

Another thing he cleared up was the information put out there that it took Baez 8 tries to pass the bar. Not true. He had background issues which had to be resolved which were not very pretty. That is what kept him from getting his license for a long time. A couple of the issues had to do with deliquent child support and bad checks. That was just two mentioned but that there were others as well.

He also pointed out that an attorney cannot "dump" a client just because that attorney finds out the client is guilty. They still have to provide a defense. Dunno and kinda fuzzy as to how that works. What I don't understand is why he didn't just convince her to plead out to a lesser charge concerning accidental death a long time ago unless there really is something else. Someone else (on here, I think) mentioned the lip reader's saying something about Casey telling one of the attorneys that her mother was lying in her testimony to protect George. (Not an exact quote, but that was the gist of the post.) Found it...see Freeda's post, it's #65 on here.

Regardless of how this child died, I do think Casey is at the very core of it. That being said, I think her whole family shares some portion of the why in some way.
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Last edited by dillywho; 06-05-2011 at 10:52 AM. Reason: additional info
  #83  
Old 06-05-2011, 12:36 PM
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The only other reason for the duct tape that I can see would be to support the kidnapping story if and when the body was found. Unless it can be proved that she was still alive when it was applied, it very likely was not the cause of death. After autopsy, the medical examiner said in her press conference that the exact cause of death could not be determined but that it was homicide.

I've not only been following this on TV but on Tony Pipitone's blog. He puts out a lot of good information. He seems to be the only reporter without bias either way. (One poster on the blog pointed this out by saying that a reporter on one of the other channels had basically already called her guilty.) One thing he brought out is that in Florida, homicide is not always murder. That surprised me because I thought that that was just another word for murder. Apparently not so.

Another thing he cleared up was the information put out there that it took Baez 8 tries to pass the bar. Not true. He had background issues which had to be resolved which were not very pretty. That is what kept him from getting his license for a long time. A couple of the issues had to do with deliquent child support and bad checks. That was just two mentioned but that there were others as well.

He also pointed out that an attorney cannot "dump" a client just because that attorney finds out the client is guilty. They still have to provide a defense. Dunno and kinda fuzzy as to how that works. What I don't understand is why he didn't just convince her to plead out to a lesser charge concerning accidental death a long time ago unless there really is something else. Someone else (on here, I think) mentioned the lip reader's saying something about Casey telling one of the attorneys that her mother was lying in her testimony to protect George. (Not an exact quote, but that was the gist of the post.) Found it...see Freeda's post, it's #65 on here.

Regardless of how this child died, I do think Casey is at the very core of it. That being said, I think her whole family shares some portion of the why in some way.
Thank you, Dillywho, for your thoughts and other information in your post. There are so many theories, so many allegations, so many lies. Unfortunately, Caylee's little body could not yield any clues as to how she died unless her skull shows some kind of trauma. I think that, while we all have our own ideas as to what may have happened, we will have to wait to see the whole case before the truth will be known. And, even then I doubt that we will ever know the whole story. As far as the lipreading of Casey's responses during the trial, how do we know that any of what she is saying is the truth? This girl doesn't know what the truth is. Even if Casey takes the stand at some point, who is going to believe anything that she says? I have not seen one sign in this girl that she truly misses her daughter. Most of her conversations from jail ended up with the focus on HER, not any wailing or lamenting over the loss of her child. The experts on many of the news programs are calling her a psychopath. Perhaps she belongs in a mental institution for the rest of her life?
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  #84  
Old 06-06-2011, 09:22 AM
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I listened to each jail visit tape with her brother, and parents. She knew her daughter was dead and was able to continue the lies. I listened to the taped interviews with the detectives. Why would a jury choose to believe Casey now, even if she did take the stand?

The woman is one of the best liars I have ever heard. I feel for her family, she and her attorney threw them under the bus to safe her own pathetic life! That is a callousness and lack of humanity that makes the Death Penalty reasonable for her fate. I pray there is justice given to Caylee.
Robert, I agree. Even if Casey takes the stand, how could the Jury ever decide to believe a habitual liar? It is frightening to see Casey's total indifference to the loss of her daughter and the suffering of her parents.
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  #85  
Old 06-06-2011, 11:49 AM
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Robert, I agree. Even if Casey takes the stand, how could the Jury ever decide to believe a habitual liar? It is frightening to see Casey's total indifference to the loss of her daughter and the suffering of her parents.
I think you're right, Bare. So sad. So very unusual to see someone without remorse over the death of their child.
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  #86  
Old 06-06-2011, 03:12 PM
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Is this going to be another surprise "O.J. verdict" ?
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  #87  
Old 06-06-2011, 04:01 PM
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It very well could be
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Old 06-06-2011, 05:00 PM
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Default I know that it is the defenses job

to discredit all state witnesses but hasn't Baez stepped over the line!
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:43 PM
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When Dr. Vass testified (all day!) today, why was he allowed to go on and on and on everytime he opened his mouth? Why was he not admonished to just answer the questions asked instead of all the rambling he did? Other witnesses have been very restricted in this respect. Baez did try to rein him in a couple of times by telling him to just answer "yes" or "no". Even then, he persisted. In his cross, Baez did score a point or two toward creating some doubt.

I also did not understand why he was not admonished for the extraneous remarks and laughing about "almost jumping backwards" when asked about the smell when he opened the can. By not just saying that there was an overwhelming smell of what he knows or recognizes as human decomposition, it came across as very prejudicial antics. Also by being so deeply technical, he could well have cost the prosecution some points just by wearing out the jury.

Jumping ahead, wouldn't it be more prudent for the state to take the death penalty off the table since it will be an automatic appeal? That is already a given. Right now, the prosecution are working their tails off to ward off an appeal and the defense are working theirs off building grounds for one. With appeals, this could go on forever.
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  #90  
Old 06-06-2011, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dillywho View Post
When Dr. Vass testified (all day!) today, why was he allowed to go on and on and on everytime he opened his mouth? Why was he not admonished to just answer the questions asked instead of all the rambling he did? Other witnesses have been very restricted in this respect. Baez did try to rein him in a couple of times by telling him to just answer "yes" or "no". Even then, he persisted. In his cross, Baez did score a point or two toward creating some doubt.

I also did not understand why he was not admonished for the extraneous remarks and laughing about "almost jumping backwards" when asked about the smell when he opened the can. By not just saying that there was an overwhelming smell of what he knows or recognizes as human decomposition, it came across as very prejudicial antics. Also by being so deeply technical, he could well have cost the prosecution some points just by wearing out the jury.

Jumping ahead, wouldn't it be more prudent for the state to take the death penalty off the table since it will be an automatic appeal? That is already a given. Right now, the prosecution are working their tails off to ward off an appeal and the defense are working theirs off building grounds for one. With appeals, this could go on forever.
I actually thought Dr. Vass did a pretty good job today. I think his nervousness showed when he made a few extraneous remarks and laughed a few times which somehow seemed imappropriate because of the seriousness of the charges. Still, the man is the Director of the Body Farm, and I think he came across as a credible professional. I think Baez had his best day yet, but that isn't saying much. For the most part, I think that Baez is out of his depth. But he did manage to make a few good points today and cast a little doubt. I think that overall the day definitely went to the Prosecution. I noticed that Baez's objections were overruled quite often by the Judge. (I think that the Judge is doing an excellent job). Apparently they found a syringe in the trunk that we haven't heard about yet. It's a slow and tedious process to build a case on this type of evidence.

The interesting part will be to see if the Defence changes their story. I never thought I'd feel sorry for Casey's parents, but I do. I think that Casey has made up lie after lie to save her skin and thrown her dad under the bus in the process. Unbelievable. I still think that Casey is a demented woman and her daughter was just the sweetest little girl. It breaks my heart everytime I see her pictures, but I can't stop watching.
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