[Bucco]

Originally Posted by Barefoot

Cautiously applauding JP's post ....

A word of caution.....most, if not all, reports and studies I have read use words like "appears", "may have", "tends to mean", "strong possibly".

We, in todays age, seem to want to make this entire thing absolute. We have means to go back a long long time and make "assumptions", and show "strong possiblities"....NOT facts and I cannot believe that the strongest advocate for climate change would state it any other way.

Just keep that in mind when you talk of this....of course there is no ABSOLUTE for that many years ago.....that is what makes this entire debate very difficult.

[billethkid]

Originally Posted by Arctic Fox

Post away - I am happy to read everyone's opinion. It may not tally with mine, but that's exactly what makes TOTV an interesting place to hang out.

I have isolated part of Arctic Fox's quote to make my point. I agree 100% having no problem reading other's opinions/beliefs. And there will always be on any given subject those who agree or disagree or have a totally different view/belief/opinion.

The majority of posters on TOTV respect other positions/views. I also believe that political, real, perceived or other can in fact be discussed with the same respect for other's posts.

The problem, just as it was in the political forum, leading to it's demise......is when some few combat ANY non alignment or acceptance of their position.
A civil majority over time usually outweighs the bias.

I personally have enjoyed this thread. I always learn something from other viewpoints. And have learned a long time ago to ignore the labeling and name assignments (most of the time anyway).

[2BNTV]

Lou Lou Lou, I've had my morning coffee so here goes.

I believe there is a global warming, but it is so far away, we will be all gone. Each generation has been practicing recycling, etc, and is taking this seriously.

I am not the prophet of doom, or cyncical enough, to think it just around the corner but that's just me.

Someone likes to stir the pot.

Don't worry, be happy.

[B&C47]

The Earth Has Been Changing Since The Beginning. Nothing remains the same.

[Arctic Fox]

Just to clarify the "800,000 years ago" issue:

The current atmospheric level of carbon dioxide is 400 parts per million, and climbing.

The furthest back that scientists have currently gone, using ice cores, is 800,000 years, at which time the level was 300 ppm.

So today's level is not only the highest in 800,000 years, but is also considerably higher than it was 800,000 years ago.

In fact, it is believed that the last time the level was at 400 ppm was more than three million years ago.


May not change your thinking, but thought you should know.

[JP]

Originally Posted by Arctic Fox

Just to clarify the "800,000 years ago" issue:

The current atmospheric level of carbon dioxide is 400 parts per million, and climbing.

The furthest back that scientists have currently gone, using ice cores, is 800,000 years, at which time the level was 300 ppm.

So today's level is not only the highest in 800,000 years, but is also considerably higher than it was 800,000 years ago.

In fact, it is believed that the last time the level was at 400 ppm was more than three million years ago.


May not change your thinking, but thought you should know.

This doesn't really change my opinion.

Ok. Why was CO2 at such 'high' levels 3 million years ago and man wasn't even around to "cause" it?

I know. The Earth caused it.

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by TexaninVA

I'm afraid you totally missed the point of my post. I am not talking about bonafide ecological issues, clean water and such. No one that I know is opposed to that. I would also disagree that corporations are inherently the bad guys as you seem to imply. State it more clearly if I have misconstrued what you said.

What I am saying is there is a certain faddishness, largely on the left, to "climate change" ... it was originally global cooling years ago, then global warming and now climate change. That word seems to sell better. Do you deny that "fixing" climate change will require a much more intrusive government intervention? Do you deny that there is a huge political agenda that goes with it?

I also note that the latest technique is to dismiss all counter arguments by saying climate change is now settled science. It is not.

The hypocrisy also is bothersome. The leading proponents (well know politicians) of this movement tend to live in huge mansions, burn electricity by the bundle, fly around the world in private jets, make gazillions off the credulous, and then lecture the common man/woman about how they should cut back. It's beyond a joke ... it's a racket.

Methinks your political slip is showing. I never said or implied that corporations are the "bad guys". Corporations are in the business of making profit for their shareholders and are not charged with an interest in the greater good of mankind. Democracies have elected and appointed representatives that are charged with the authority and responsibility to look after the greater good of the people they represent. When corporations use their resources to influence those representatives in their favor it is not the corporations that are the bad guys - they are simply doing what they are chartered to do, it is the representatives who allow themselves to be bought who are the "bad guys".

[TexaninVA]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

Methinks your political slip is showing. I never said or implied that corporations are the "bad guys". Corporations are in the business of making profit for their shareholders and are not charged with an interest in the greater good of mankind. Democracies have elected and appointed representatives that are charged with the authority and responsibility to look after the greater good of the people they represent. When corporations use their resources to influence those representatives in their favor it is not the corporations that are the bad guys - they are simply doing what they are chartered to do, it is the representatives who allow themselves to be bought who are the "bad guys".

"... makes me believe the right wing propoganda machine is working. ...The same goes for air pollution, and asbestos and any number of pesky problems that corporations fought because they didn't want to have to spend any money to fix them, despite the human cost."

Uh, I would say you are showing more than a bit of leg of your own.

[Bonanza]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

Is NBC an unbiased source? Isn't that like calling the Pope to find out if God exists?

Regardless of whether NBC is biased or not,
some things are based on substantiated facts and evidence and some things are based on blind faith.

[Bonanza]

Okay -- just a couple of questions . . . . .

The icebergs are melting and seriously threaten the future of the polar bears (and I fear many other things). If it isn't climate change, global warming, or whatever you want to call it, then what is the cause???

All the bombings from all the wars, going back to WWI, all bomb testing, etc. While I am not a scientist, do the nay sayers really believe that the gasses emitted from all this really don't affect the atmosphere and don't really create long range (bad) issues?

Do people really think that you can really fool around with Mother Nature and NOT pay the price?

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by 2BNTV

Lou Lou Lou, I've had my morning coffee so here goes.

I believe there is a global warming, but it is so far away, we will be all gone. Each generation has been practicing recycling, etc, and is taking this seriously.

I am not the prophet of doom, or cyncical enough, to think it just around the corner but that's just me.

Someone likes to stir the pot.

Don't worry, be happy.

Me too, folgers classic. I trimmed my bushes yesterday and still was able to hold my coffee cup this morning without pain. Can artheritus be reversed with age? For my blood preasure, I will try to accept what I presceive as sarcastic attacks as an attempt to help educate me. Nothing wrong with getting smarter. I will start a controversial thread this moring and sincerely view all posts as well meaning to see how it affects my BP.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

Me too, folgers classic. I trimmed my bushes yesterday and still was able to hold my coffee cup this morning without pain. Can artheritus be reversed with age? For my blood preasure, I will try to accept what I presceive as sarcastic attacks as an attempt to help educate me. Nothing wrong with getting smarter. I will start a controversial thread this moring and sincerely view all posts as well meaning to see how it affects my BP.

PLEASE don't start a controversial thread and then be hurt by folks.


I hate when people hurt each other ONLY because they each passionately believe a certain thing. We can't all agree and we can't get hurt or mad if someone doesn't agree with us. We are the sum total of all of the things that have happened to us over time. We all can't have had the same experiences.


I am writing this to YOU and need to take my own advice.


Unfortunately or fortunately we are all humans with very deep feelings and sensitive hearts.


I just can't resist to add my two cents when things get political and sometimes I get all mad. BUT I have few redeeming features and one of them is that I don't stay mad long and am almost always sorry and ashamed I said something in the heat of the moment that probably hurt someone or made them mad.


I have had my mind changed on this forum over time with diplomatic people and excellent arguments. So there is hope for the most stubborn...like me.

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

PLEASE don't start a controversial thread and then be hurt by folks.


I hate when people hurt each other ONLY because they each passionately believe a certain thing. We can't all agree and we can't get hurt or mad if someone doesn't agree with us. We are the sum total of all of the things that have happened to us over time. We all can't have had the same experiences.


I am writing this to YOU and need to take my own advice.


Unfortunately or fortunately we are all humans with very deep feelings and sensitive hearts.


I just can't resist to add my two cents when things get political and sometimes I get all mad. BUT I have few redeeming features and one of them is that I don't stay mad long and am almost always sorry and ashamed I said something in the heat of the moment that probably hurt someone or made them mad.


I have had my mind changed on this forum over time with diplomatic people and excellent arguments. So there is hope for the most stubborn...like me.

I know and you are so wise. I find sincerity as a wonderful thing yet I have such a problem with mean spirited sarcasm. I have already started a new thread with the utmost sincerity. I am going to ignore sarcasm and look for the good on every post. Read my link in the thread and I feel it us right up your alley. I too have changed my opinions on issues through conversation on this site, but my mind closes to Shakespeare style of writing when it is laced with sarcasm and insults. Have a blessed day Gracie.

[Arctic Fox]

Originally Posted by JP

Why was CO2 at such 'high' levels 3 million years ago and man wasn't even around to "cause" it? I know. The Earth caused it.

Indeed, the Earth did cause it. And if you go back 500 million years you might find CO2 levels at ten times today's concentration, but you wouldn't want to live in that climate.

For virtually the whole time that Homo Sapiens has been in existence, CO2 has varied between 200 and 300 ppm.

In the mid-18th century (the start of the Industrial Revolution) the level was 280 ppm, and in the past 260 years it has increased to 400 ppm. In the past fifty years alone it has increased 25% (from 320 to 400 ppm).

Apart from cataclysmic events (which tend to cause mass extinctions) the Earth has never before witnessed such a rapid increase. So, while no-one is denying that Earth contributes to the CO2 cycle, it seems more than likely that Man is now playing a significant role.

Even if he is not, and the Earth has suddenly decided to ramp up CO2 concentrations by itself, it is in Man's interest to try to keep the increase as small as possible. Aside from the damage from more violent storms and rising sea levels, plants cannot adapt to rapid changes in their environment. Think crop failure and the death of native forests.

It may take decades for such problems to truly manifest themselves (although the evidence is already out there) but it will take many more decades to slow the increase and, hopefully, get the concentration back below the desired maximum of 350 ppm.

That is if we don't pass a tipping point beyond which Earth just cannot cope. It is comforting to think of Gaia - Earth taking care of itself and compensating for anything Man throws at it - but the reality is proving otherwise. Earth really doesn't care whether Mankind is here or not.

[TOTV Team]

We have posted in the site guidelines what a political post is. The site rules are available in the upper left navigation box.

Best Regards,