[fdpaq0580]

Originally Posted by I'm Popeye!

Are we drowning yet....

Plymouth rock picture? High tide or low???

[Love2Swim]

Originally Posted by Byte1

Is it "Global Warming" or Climate Change that we are discussing? My point is that the climate is always changing and that there is no proof that any of the changing is caused by man. Or, that man has any control over changing the cyclic changes in the climate.

Of course climate is always changing. The scientists are alarmed because the rate of change is drastically different. And man DOES have control over the rate of change.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Love2Swim

Of course climate is always changing. The scientists are alarmed because the rate of change is drastically different. And man DOES have control over the rate of change.

The rate of change is drastically different????? Compared to WHAT?????

Compared to the last 150 years out of the last 4 million??? Yeah, right, that's meaningful

Man has control over the rate of change???? Do we???? How do we know since we don't even know what is causing "change" (if there is any). And how would we change the climate????? Alter Earth's axis or our orbit around the sun???? Which is what you would have to do since they are the causes of climate change. All this fossil fuel nonsense is just babbling unless and until we have real data for a long enough period of time. Of course, that's thousands of years. Meanwhile, don't worry about the sky falling

[Kerlampert]

Originally Posted by fdpaq0580

Any single event could easily be the first, or one of many heretofore unrecognized symptoms of climate change. Actually, global warming/climate change was a thing before the first brave politician ever mentioned it. Brave because he knew he was signing his political death warrant and would be subjected to ridicule.
The question, can man effect the climate?
Can an insect effect the life of a building?
I say "yes" to both questions.
The building may have an expected lifespan. A single insect can't do much. But hundreds of thousands of termites can certainly contribute to the early demise of that structure.
Likewise, earth with a smattering of humans probably wouldn't notice us. But with billions scouring the earth and destroying habitats and devouring resources. Yes! I do think human activity is definitely having an effect. And billions more to come from the billions here already.
Like lemmings who over populated and destroyed their island home, they jump in the sea and hope to find another home. We live on an island in space. How soon before we over populate and the planet can't cope? We are not yet able to, figuratively speaking, jump off this island and start swimming.

As we move to the Villages, now is a good time to reflect on this basic issue. How many persons can sustainably live in Florida?
Everyone wants the mild climate and proximity to the ocean.
But this is one of the most fragile ecospheres.
And the storm probability makes residing here an even riskier idea.

I guess The Villages and Babcock Ranch are examples of the most populated communities that are properly designed to handle these environmental stressers.

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by Kerlampert

As we move to the Villages, now is a good time to reflect on this basic issue. How many persons can sustainably live in Florida?
Everyone wants the mild climate and proximity to the ocean.
But this is one of the most fragile ecospheres.
And the storm probability makes residing here an even riskier idea.

I guess The Villages and Babcock Ranch are examples of the most populated communities that are properly designed to handle these environmental stressers.

Florida
We don't want the state to tip over and/or sink.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Let's jog the memory:

"The McKinsey report puts it bluntly. To achieve net zero emissions by 2050 would require substantial capital allocation by governments and the private sector to transform the global economy – approximately US$9.2 trillion in annual spending on physical assets in energy and land use systems over the next 28 years. The net zero scenario has been estimated to cost around 7.5 per cent of global gross domestic product, while the increase in spending required over current levels works out to around half of all corporate profits and one-quarter of all tax revenues in 2020!"

Let's see: 9.2 T x 28 years =257.6 TRILLION. I guess I underestimated. "Nothing over 1 trillion" is simply delusional

I would say that you can pay Mother Nature today or pay much more tomorrow. While I don't expect US net zero emissions by 2050 I DO expect that intelligent human beings will look at changes like the dying of reef coral and the rapid animal species extinction and move in the DIRECTION of zero emissions. There are some possible areas of improvement that can take place without undue cost or lifestyle changes for US Americans. In terms of electric vehicles, there have been recent discoveries of lithium in mining areas of Alaska. We may not be dependent on China for lithium batteries. The newest design of nuclear power generators has great improvements in safety and safe spent fuel disposal. The US can wean itself SLOWLY away from the internal combustion engine. California has plans for that and Finland is going to require 100% of all new car sales to be electric in one or two years. The Villages could make a similar requirement for golf carts in the future and add charging stations. It's all a matter of human willpower and a willingness to change. The technology IS CERTAINLY there. It is fixed-in-place mindsets that hold back innovation and progress, not science and technology. The younger 50 and 55-year-old Villagers arriving now may be more concerned about moving toward net zero emissions and be more flexible about the topic of climate change.

As to "the one-quarter of all tax revenues in 2020"..........let me turn that around........in order to get anything worthwhile accomplished in a country as BIG as the US, you need Federal and State Government support and DIRECTION leading to BIG ideas and projects - for example, the space program of the 1960s. It might be prudent at this juncture in history to raise the Corporate tax rate a SMALL amount in order to balance the budget and allow the US government to move more aggressively toward solving the problem of environmental degradation being caused by climate change.

Imagine the incredible costs of not doing anything. We will pay dearly if the oceans rise enough to threaten the FUNCTION of the Eastern Naval bases - as is predicted by 2050. What would be the cost of losing Miami to a warming ocean and stronger hurricanes? Most scientists say that this IS happening. A small % of scientists say that it is not. Why take that chance? Simple lifestyle changes can GUARANTEE that it doesn't happen and as a fringe benefit, US air and water quality will increase. And there will be increased jobs in environmental science and engineering. It is a win-win for everyone and Mother Nature can turn her frown into a smile!!!!!!!!

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

A few tangent to the subject, while we wait for his reply.

Planning for Changing Sea Levels

DOD, Navy Confront Climate Change Challenges in Southern Virginia > U.S. Department of Defense > Defense Department News

https://sgp.fas.org/crs/natsec/IF11275.pdf

‘Climate change is going to cost us’: How the US military is preparing for harsher environments

Great information there, thank you!

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

Sadly, I am going to be one of THOSE.

I do believe this to be a singleton event. So, I personally will not use it as "proof."

I think it is worth noting and adding to the growing evidence, but it is just one data point out of literally millions in the database.

However, I think it is a good example of secondary effects that can ripple through the economy. And not just the US economy, the world will be impacted, not the end of the world impacted, but a little and every little bit hurts. You recall "death by a thousand cuts."

Admittedly, a single event. That is why scientists use trend lines to determine CLIMATE change. They aggregate events like the cotton harvest with many others. The real proof is in the sea level increase measurements and the world's ice cap measurements of decrease.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC

While we do this other nations like China will laugh at us while they take over the markets we used to sell to. None of this will go toward modernizing factories to produce products competively.

Chinese people own DOUBLE the number of Electric cars and trucks per capita as the US. Chinese society has become more autocratic in recent years and their industrial growth and productivity have dropped. They FAILED to protect their citizens from Covid. The US has overtaken them as far as GNP. China is in a tailspin. They also produce the most total pollution in the world - adding to increased climate change, And they are overfishing the oceans to provide protein for their increasing middle-class and large population. And they are becoming more belligerent militarily.

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Chinese people own DOUBLE the number of Electric cars and trucks per capita as the US. Chinese society has become more autocratic in recent years and their industrial growth and productivity have dropped. They FAILED to protect their citizens from Covid. The US has overtaken them as far as GNP. China is in a tailspin. They also produce the most total pollution in the world - adding to increased climate change, And they are overfishing the oceans to provide protein for their increasing middle-class and large population. And they are becoming more belligerent militarily.

Man does not change the weather patterns. Pollution is a different thing. Climate is the weather pattern over a period of time, ie. 30 years span. Overfishing does not change the climate. Covid does not change the climate, etc.
Man can change the pollution element, but does not change the climate. The only way man can effect the cyclic changes would be to change the orbit of Earth from the Sun or maybe remove the moon so there would be no tide changes.
If folks want to make a big deal out of air pollution/air quality then they would have more credibility, but to constantly harp on "man made/caused" global warming, climate change, etc. is just folly. Start with a realistic agenda, AIR POLLUTION. You will get more folks to pay attention. It's no wonder there are so many folks challenging Climate Change/Control as a HOAX as an attempt to spend/extort money.
Oh, I guess man CAN effect the weather short term by causing a Nuclear Winter.

[fdpaq0580]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Man has control over the rate of change???? How do we know since we don't even know what is causing "change" (if there is any). And how would we change the climate????? Alter Earth's axis or our orbit around the sun???? Which is what you would have to do since they are the causes of climate change. All this fossil fuel nonsense is just babbling unless and until we have real data for a long enough period of time. Of course, that's thousands of years. Meanwhile, don't worry about the sky falling

We can effect the rate of change, in small ways, over time. One way is to "take your foot off the gas", in a manner of speaking. Use what we need in the most fuel efficient ways possible. Why go 75 when 60/65 might use 25 to 30 percent less fuel.

Changing the axis or orbit is not the only things that change climate. Heat absorption and reflection are also causes. These are affected by the make up of our atmosphere. The makeup of the atmosphere if affected by the health of our oceans and forests. Our oceans are not healthy partly due to human activity on a global scale. Our forests are being devastated, slashed and burned, at an alarming rate globally. Some of what used to be forest has been turned into tremendous cities and centers of industry. Concrete and asphalt soaking up the heat of the sun. The rest of the lost forests are being turned into farms and ranches, plantations for plants that have only a small percentage of the ability to change co2 into oxygen.
All of this contribute to climate change.
And, as to the recorded information, the records and charts are only a small part of recorded history of our planet. The geological record of our planet are easily read by those who know how. They tell of climates, of the atmosphere, of life and of the time before life. Evidence is there for those that care, really care, to see it.

To anyone who would respond with, "prove it" or "show me your reference", I say I have done my research and learned over a lifetime. Do your own research. Throw away your prejudices and pre-conceptions and search for truth, not confirmation of your old ideas.

[I'm Popeye!]

Originally Posted by fdpaq0580

Plymouth rock picture? High tide or low???

Still visible after 400 years, now in its protected environment. That's good enough to know we will not be drowning any time soon like some might think...

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by fdpaq0580

We can effect the rate of change, in small ways, over time. One way is to "take your foot off the gas", in a manner of speaking. Use what we need in the most fuel efficient ways possible. Why go 75 when 60/65 might use 25 to 30 percent less fuel.

Changing the axis or orbit is not the only things that change climate. Heat absorption and reflection are also causes. These are affected by the make up of our atmosphere. The makeup of the atmosphere if affected by the health of our oceans and forests. Our oceans are not healthy partly due to human activity on a global scale. Our forests are being devastated, slashed and burned, at an alarming rate globally. Some of what used to be forest has been turned into tremendous cities and centers of industry. Concrete and asphalt soaking up the heat of the sun. The rest of the lost forests are being turned into farms and ranches, plantations for plants that have only a small percentage of the ability to change co2 into oxygen.
All of this contribute to climate change.
And, as to the recorded information, the records and charts are only a small part of recorded history of our planet. The geological record of our planet are easily read by those who know how. They tell of climates, of the atmosphere, of life and of the time before life. Evidence is there for those that care, really care, to see it.

To anyone who would respond with, "prove it" or "show me your reference", I say I have done my research and learned over a lifetime. Do your own research. Throw away your prejudices and pre-conceptions and search for truth, not confirmation of your old ideas.

All true and VERY informative!

[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Chinese people own DOUBLE the number of Electric cars and trucks per capita as the US. Chinese society has become more autocratic in recent years and their industrial growth and productivity have dropped. They FAILED to protect their citizens from Covid. The US has overtaken them as far as GNP. China is in a tailspin. They also produce the most total pollution in the world - adding to increased climate change, And they are overfishing the oceans to provide protein for their increasing middle-class and large population. And they are becoming more belligerent militarily.

Our GNP has always been higher than China's Their growth rate has dropped but still higher than ours. They do protect their citizens from Covid but do it very heavenly handed by closing the city when there is a case and not allowing people to leave their homes other than say once a week one person goes out to shop.

If they go out otherwise off to prison they go.

[fdpaq0580]

Originally Posted by I'm Popeye!

Still visible after 400 years, now in its protected environment. That's good enough to know we will not be drowning any time soon like some might think...

Thanks! My mind is at ease now that I know we can enjoy the beaches next month.