[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

1. People DO dispute the term, there are people (and media "sources") that insist that Climate Change is a hoax, and isn't happening at all.

2. That is not "the" debate. There is no singular debate. There are a couple of debates going on:
a) whether climate change is a concern at all (see #1 - climate deniers)
b) whether humans have *contributed* to it (not whether we are responsible for it).
c) if a) and b) are true, then what, if anything, can we do to slow down OUR part in it?

The first step in fixing any problem is to identify the problem and confirm that it is, in fact, a problem.

Climate change is a problem.
Human civilization is a contributing factor to the problem.
Humans -can- make changes to reduce their contribution.

Those are things that some folks consider factual. Others consider a global conspiracy. When the two come together and agree on the truth of the matter, then the human race will be able to do something, if something is necessary or even possible.

In the meantime, those of us who DO believe that it's a problem, that we are contributing to it, and that we /can/ make changes to reduce our contribution, should at least try to make some changes.

Here we go again.

1) In the long term, "climate change" is a problem----after all, in 25,000 years NY City will be under 400 feet of water, and 50,000 years after that it will be under 2 miles of ice. So yes, it is a problem, assuming humans aren't extinct in that time frame, in which case it might be a problem for cockroaches to deal with.

2) IF, and it's a big IF human civilization is a contributing factor, it is miniscule at best. This is not withstanding the assertion by another climate change "believer" that cow farts are the biggest problem. Maybe cows will still be around in 25,000 years. To those who "believe", in anthropomorphic global warming (along with Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy), explain how human civilization has caused 23,000 years of global warming to the tune of approximately 8 degrees F. Did we use the wrong kind of wood fire to cook our mastodon and saber tooth tiger meat in our caves???? Did Fred Flintstone's SUV only get 8 mpg??? Or do they just want to harp on how the ONE latest hurricane reflects 100,000 years of climate change? Give us a break from delusional thinking.

3) Of course we can reduce our "contribution", but keep in mind half of nothing is still nothing. But by all means let's spend the proposed 100 TRILLION dollars to try.

[B-flat]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Here we go again.

1) In the long term, "climate change" is a problem----after all, in 25,000 years NY City will be under 400 feet of water, and 50,000 years after that it will be under 2 miles of ice. So yes, it is a problem, assuming humans aren't extinct in that time frame, in which case it might be a problem for cockroaches to deal with.

2) IF, and it's a big IF human civilization is a contributing factor, it is miniscule at best. This is not withstanding the assertion by another climate change "believer" that cow farts are the biggest problem. Maybe cows will still be around in 25,000 years. To those who "believe", in anthropomorphic global warming (along with Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy), explain how human civilization has caused 23,000 years of global warming to the tune of approximately 8 degrees F. Did we use the wrong kind of wood fire to cook our mastodon and saber tooth tiger meat in our caves???? Did Fred Flintstone's SUV only get 8 mpg??? Or do they just want to harp on how the ONE latest hurricane reflects 100,000 years of climate change? Give us a break from delusional thinking.

3) Of course we can reduce our "contribution", but keep in mind half of nothing is still nothing. But by all means let's spend the proposed 100 TRILLION dollars to try.

Well said!

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

Will we get Dragons back? Because I really want a dragon...

You can buy a Dragon Ship today and find some friends to row REAL fast around Lake Sumter. Maybe even use a natural gas tank to shoot fire out of its mouth. happy trails, happy lake trails.
.........Maybe that puppy dog could swim in front on a rope and provide some needed propulsion. But, watch out for alligators without a sense of humor.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by JRcorvette

Climate Change is all Hogwash! It is all about your MONEY!

Hogwash....one of my FAV modern terminologies.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

I think the last several posts may be longer than the speech they refer to

Some people's "facts" are just flat out wrong, as well as exhibiting faulty cause-effect reasoning. Using ONE, yes a SINGLE storm (weather event) as an example does not reflect a 100,000 year CLIMATE change cycle.

And yes, ocean levels are rising, they have been rising for the last 23,000 years, again, showing that human beings have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with it. In the last 120 years ocean levels have risen 6-8 inches. Actually, the biggest rise occurred between 21,000 BC and 11,000 BC-----432 feet, yes FEET, not INCHES. But before those easily panicked get frightened, Florida won't be partially underwater for another 25,000 years. Also, remember that the 432 foot rise followed a similar fall in ocean levels during the last period of glaciation due to water getting sequestered in glaciers and ice caps.

Bottom line: I think I'll have a thick juicy steak tonight, comforted by the FACT that one less cow is farting.

Please, please DON'T eat while thinking about flatulence - it is bad for the digestive tract. And I see that we ALL are in agreement about the FACT that ocean level is RISING - a step in the right direction, baby steps are GOOD. Now, to EXPAND a little on that fact, scientists that measure the YEARLY rise (we are talking about MAN'S pollution forming an upper atmospheric blanket.......in the time period of recent years, NOT geological time)......These SCIENTISTS are WORRIED by the RAPID RISE in just the last 2 YEARS.

We all know the popular song.......It takes a WORRIED scientist to sing a WORRIED Global Warming song
.......I'm worried NOW, but I might be dead soon....like the planet

Incidentally, in the Milwaukee Centinel Newspaper recently scientists are WORRIED that ONLY 3% of the lake is frozen.......the least in DECADES. This is expected to cause a large disruption in the lake and land ecosystem there !

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

1. People DO dispute the term, there are people (and media "sources") that insist that Climate Change is a hoax, and isn't happening at all.

2. That is not "the" debate. There is no singular debate. There are a couple of debates going on:
a) whether climate change is a concern at all (see #1 - climate deniers)
b) whether humans have *contributed* to it (not whether we are responsible for it).
c) if a) and b) are true, then what, if anything, can we do to slow down OUR part in it?

The first step in fixing any problem is to identify the problem and confirm that it is, in fact, a problem.

Climate change is a problem.
Human civilization is a contributing factor to the problem.
Humans -can- make changes to reduce their contribution.

Those are things that some folks consider factual. Others consider a global conspiracy. When the two come together and agree on the truth of the matter, then the human race will be able to do something, if something is necessary or even possible.

In the meantime, those of us who DO believe that it's a problem, that we are contributing to it, and that we /can/ make changes to reduce our contribution, should at least try to make some changes.

OK, yes, good post. The 1st step in SOLVING a problem IS to identify clearly what that problem IS. I would like people to realize the PROBLEM happens each time the ignition KEY to a Infernal Combustion Engine is turned on. Or a gas lawn mower is STARTED. Now I know that people, especially older folks that are set in their ways, will NOT immediately trade their ICE engine vehicle (car, truck, or golf cart) on an E-VEHICLE.

I know that ! But I SIMPLY would like more people to realize that for people and animal species to continue to live on this planet Earth in a civilized and peaceful manner in the FUTURE - that today we must, (AT LEAST) recognize the correlation between fossil fuel vehicles and a deteriorating planet and SOME potentially really BAD outcomes for HUMANS !!!!!!

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Here we go again.

1) In the long term, "climate change" is a problem----after all, in 25,000 years NY City will be under 400 feet of water, and 50,000 years after that it will be under 2 miles of ice. So yes, it is a problem, assuming humans aren't extinct in that time frame, in which case it might be a problem for cockroaches to deal with.

2) IF, and it's a big IF human civilization is a contributing factor, it is miniscule at best. This is not withstanding the assertion by another climate change "believer" that cow farts are the biggest problem. Maybe cows will still be around in 25,000 years. To those who "believe", in anthropomorphic global warming (along with Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy), explain how human civilization has caused 23,000 years of global warming to the tune of approximately 8 degrees F. Did we use the wrong kind of wood fire to cook our mastodon and saber tooth tiger meat in our caves???? Did Fred Flintstone's SUV only get 8 mpg??? Or do they just want to harp on how the ONE latest hurricane reflects 100,000 years of climate change? Give us a break from delusional thinking.

3) Of course we can reduce our "contribution", but keep in mind half of nothing is still nothing. But by all means let's spend the proposed 100 TRILLION dollars to try.

Some folks missed their calling and would make wonderful lobbyists for my fav.......the oil and gas industries.

And did I mention that a couple of days ago Oliver Stone was at Davos trying to help out planet Earth by pointing out that Nuclear Power Plants are NOT dangerous like the oil and gas industry has spent the BIG BUCKS to convince Americans of that. I may have forgotten to mention that ?

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Some folks missed their calling and would make wonderful lobbyists for my fav.......the oil and gas industries.

And did I mention that a couple of days ago Oliver Stone was at Davos trying to help out planet Earth by pointing out that Nuclear Power Plants are NOT dangerous like the oil and gas industry has spent the BIG BUCKS to convince Americans of that. I may have forgotten to mention that ?

I pretty much also remembering commenting that Oliver Stone was my go to guy for factual, unbiased information (not) :1rotfl;

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Please, please DON'T eat while thinking about flatulence - it is bad for the digestive tract. And I see that we ALL are in agreement about the FACT that ocean level is RISING - a step in the right direction, baby steps are GOOD. Now, to EXPAND a little on that fact, scientists that measure the YEARLY rise (we are talking about MAN'S pollution forming an upper atmospheric blanket.......in the time period of recent years, NOT geological time)......These SCIENTISTS are WORRIED by the RAPID RISE in just the last 2 YEARS.

We all know the popular song.......It takes a WORRIED scientist to sing a WORRIED Global Warming song
.......I'm worried NOW, but I might be dead soon....like the planet

Incidentally, in the Milwaukee Centinel Newspaper recently scientists are WORRIED that ONLY 3% of the lake is frozen.......the least in DECADES. This is expected to cause a large disruption in the lake and land ecosystem there !

Oh, yes---that "rapid" rise of 3.9 mm. Get your kayak out
Now, if you can show me year by year data for the last 23,000 years and that the last 2 years are the largest rise in that time, then you'd have something. Unfortunately, Fred Flintstone didn't have an accurate ruler and the clay tablet he inscribed those numbers upon have crumbled. But since ocean levels rose 432 feet from 21,000 to 11,000 BC, I'd bet there were many, many years with an ocean rise of greater than 3.9 mm, again, all without the internal combustion engine.

BTW, which scientists????? Would those be the ones dependent upon government grants, journal acceptance of their articles, and university tenure to survive???? Yep, I thought so.

And I assume that the Milwaukee paper is referring to Lake Michigan having the lowest percentage freeze in decades. Which means there were previous decades with even less freezing.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Oh, yes---that "rapid" rise of 3.9 mm. Get your kayak out
Now, if you can show me year by year data for the last 23,000 years and that the last 2 years are the largest rise in that time, then you'd have something. Unfortunately, Fred Flintstone didn't have an accurate ruler and the clay tablet he inscribed those numbers upon have crumbled. But since ocean levels rose 432 feet from 21,000 to 11,000 BC, I'd bet there were many, many years with an ocean rise of greater than 3.9 mm, again, all without the internal combustion engine.

BTW, which scientists????? Would those be the ones dependent upon government grants, journal acceptance of their articles, and university tenure to survive???? Yep, I thought so.

And I assume that the Milwaukee paper is referring to Lake Michigan having the lowest percentage freeze in decades. Which means there were previous decades with even less freezing.

Well one of us is going to be correct and the other, NOT so correct. I HOPE that I am the NOT CORRECT person, because that would be better for humanity. But, who is correct will probably RESOLVE itself in about 10 years - I hope I live that long. Next summer is NOT that far away and should shed some light on this potential dilemma. .........Last summer had fires ALL over the West and 2 VERY large, costly, and deadly hurricanes here in Fl. I am betting that this coming summer will bring more hurricanes to Fl. and BIG problems to other parts of the US. Ca. got some needed snowpack recently, but I believe that I saw that some parts of Ca. are still in a drought. Lots of peeps in Ca. are going to be needing water and A/C this coming summer. And since the mudslides washed away many plants needed for grown cover, can new grown cover grow up this spring enough to hold the soil on hills and
topsoil needed for crops.....I would be CURIOUS to know what someone of great stature thinks would be the OPTIMUM population of the US. Have we PAST it? Is 360 million people about right? Or there is NO OPTIMUM, just whatever? Just let it KEEP climbing?

[jimjamuser]

The important part of the Milwaukee Article IS that their state scientists are WORRIED about the effect of a WARMER winter on the area ecosystem. The small % of ice only confirms the warmer problem. Just like here in Fl. and worldwide the dying coral confirms the WARMER problem. Also, the high and going higher levels of CO2 in the ocean water. There are a lot of RECENT trends and that IS what I am concerned about.

[jimjamuser]

When Googling "ice cover on the Great Lakes", a person can find that Jan 2023 will have a record LOW amount of ICE. This will lead to increased evaporation and falling water levels. The record low ice is a measure of Global Warming and could lead to problems with the fish population of the great lakes and other ecologically bad changes.

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Some folks missed their calling and would make wonderful lobbyists for my fav.......the oil and gas industries.

And did I mention that a couple of days ago Oliver Stone was at Davos trying to help out planet Earth by pointing out that Nuclear Power Plants are NOT dangerous like the oil and gas industry has spent the BIG BUCKS to convince Americans of that. I may have forgotten to mention that ?

IIRC, the "No Nukes" protests, trying to stop nuclear energy were NOT funded by oil & gas corporations... It was the "peace, love and granola" lobbyists... And that is still true, to this day...

BTW, I've been touting the new "safe" nuclear power plants for some time now. They are the only way we'll be able to power your beloved "E-(insert every single mode of transportation here) vehicles"...

That, or we all get one of these:

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

When Googling "ice cover on the Great Lakes", a person can find that Jan 2023 will have a record LOW amount of ICE. This will lead to increased evaporation and falling water levels. The record low ice is a measure of Global Warming and could lead to problems with the fish population of the great lakes and other ecologically bad changes.

Actually, it said "near" the lowest level, but why quibble over facts?

[rsimpson]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

When Googling "ice cover on the Great Lakes", a person can find that Jan 2023 will have a record LOW amount of ICE. This will lead to increased evaporation and falling water levels. The record low ice is a measure of Global Warming and could lead to problems with the fish population of the great lakes and other ecologically bad changes.

Were you measuring ice back 11,600 years ago, too?