[PammyJ]

Auto correct made customer Vito Ed...lol! Do not see how... Oh well, customer!

[gomoho]

Pammy - when I say basics I am saying addition in first grade, subtraction in second, times tables memorized (backwards and forwards) in third and division in fourth. A good sound basic understanding of math skills before you move on to algebra etc. I'm hearing this is not happening in schools today. Am I wrong?

[manaboutown]

The problem as I see it is finding decent starting employees. If an employee is good and works hard the salary will come.

[mrfixit]

Originally Posted by manaboutown

The problem as I see it is finding decent starting employees. If an employee is good and works hard the salary will come.

Can we get an AMEN.

Even some of the Head Honchos at McDonalds Corporate started at Minimum wage.

My first job...
..................( picking fly crap off of black pepper)......
.................................................. .......... paid minimum.

OK.........(You caught me)....that was not my First job.

[twinklesweep]

How unfortunate once again to see one group of working people being pitted against another such group, where neither benefits but you can be sure someone else does.... And then there are the ignorant folk who buy into this, further fostering an �us versus them� mentality. In truth, what we need is a greater focus on simply �us� and quit the blame game! �We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.� There isn�t a time when Benjamin Franklin�s comment has not been relevant!

There are incompetents in every field, and it�s easy to say in the corporate world that it�s a matter of simply firing them, which is not possible in a public service-type job where one earns tenure or permanent status. Sadly, it�s often incompetents in this situation who are most often cited. I ask, where is the responsibility on the part of management insofar as weeding out these individuals prior to their being granted such protection under the law? If I were a betting person, I would wager that they didn�t become incompetent overnight�.

And then there�s the �Peter Principle,� of incompetents kicked upstairs. Reading through this thread, I�m reminded of the power of the ballot box and the ability�not always but often enough�to keep such persons out of certain jobs, even unpaid leadership/policy-making jobs such as on governing boards like those of school districts.

And why such hostility toward teachers in particular�and an appalling level of ignorance about the field by those whose focus is on nurturing the chip on their shoulder and strengthening their adversarial points of view? Jealousy or envy based on ignorance of what is actually involved in this field? These are the folks to whom we trust the education of our children, for goodness sake! Rest assured it was not decisions by teachers that eliminated spelling and times table memorization as well as subjects like geography (�Yes, Virginia, there really is a world out there!�) and civics (�The rights and responsibilities of being a citizen? Nah, they don�t need that! Besides, they�re easier to control without it!�)

OK, I�m off my soap box; let the flaming begin�.

[graciegirl]

Here is the first place I have lived and found bias against business. There is selfish small business, sheltered medium business and greedy big business who are all granted unethical tax shelters apparently in the minds of several posters. They are the enemy. Meanwhile all of those businesses provide jobs and sustain the economy. It appears that people who feel this way never entertain that the people who have climbed to the top, are climbing and are trying to gain a foothold at the bottom could be reasonable, fair, hard working and just as ethical as they are. Maybe they don't know anyone personally or no one has had business success in their families? There is class envy that I have never seen before. This country is festering hate, class envy and racial tension that appears to be escalating.

To me, being rich is having a little more, or a lot more than you need to survive. It is not wrong or sinful to be rich unless you stole it, or didn't work hard to earn it. Most of us were taught to save and to take care of ourselves and our families and that taking handouts that were not needed was shameful if you were able bodied and could work. It was called pride.

How did this all change?

I know that there exists everywhere horrible and unethical people like Bernie Madoff but I have heard Gary Morse compared to him on this forum.

I don't know Gary Morse and I doubt very much if anyone who posts on this forum knows one tiny thing about him personally; his character, his goals and his values. He was sued but I still am wondering why, and the folks who sued him seem to have gained a big hunk of money personally from that suit. A few of the SAME folks on this forum over and over love to bash the developer and the Morse family, and I suspect because the Morses are enormously financially successful. I just don't get it. Why is it wrong to be successful and rich?

Twenty years ago they had a good idea and not a whole lot else. A lot of useless land in central Florida in a county with some of the lowest employment in Florida.

I could be so wrong and the whole Morse crew could be Atilla the Hun and heirs and assigns. (Is THAT politically incorrect? Are there still Huns?)

[graciegirl]

Now...about Teachers. It was funner and more productive to teach before the unions started helping us. It was easier to get the job done without someone on the school board pitching "Catcher in the Rye" into the trash can and worrying a lot about Harry Potter books. It was delightful to be able to hug your students without worrying someone would think you were a molester and that if you had to reprimand a student for bad behavior you would get parental support rather than a law suit.

It was joyful and wonderful and so great to teach kids who had their breakfast, an ironed shirt and parents who would see them at dinner. When drugs were aspirin sold at Grays and when teachers tried to get the best out of each and every kid, know that each was different and learned differently. Sometimes it took awhile but we may not have made them all valedictorians but we saw that eventually everyone got a job.

That was a time that teachers stayed after to coach the cheerleaders or baseball team and showed up at the PTA meetings.

I don't know that I would choose teaching again as a job if I had to do it all over.

Yes. I did say funner. It was.

[PammyJ]

Originally Posted by gomoho

Pammy - when I say basics I am saying addition in first grade, subtraction in second, times tables memorized (backwards and forwards) in third and division in fourth. A good sound basic understanding of math skills before you move on to algebra etc. I'm hearing this is not happening in schools today. Am I wrong?

Actually what you stated above has put us into the situation we are in now. Memorizing facts only without an understanding of what these algorithms represent is WHY students cannot transfer that knowledge into real life situations.
One of the reasons we are in this new movement of more rigorous Standards is because Ivy League college professors are saying that students from the American Education system are really good at reciting facts! However, they cannot think for themselves. Students from other countries exceed American students in Critical Thinking Skills!
It is very hard for some teachers who were taught the memorizing method along with algorithms for every math situation to teach for understanding. This is why I have said before, we are re-training and learning this ourselves! Then there are the really SMart people who can look at a complex Algebra problem and explain in detail how the formulas work and how they are applied to real life..... Our Engineers, etc.... My husband!!
Seriously.. This is why people can't count back change when needed. Give us time, this next generation will be able to do that and more!

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by PammyJ

Actually what you stated above has put us into the situation we are in now. Memorizing facts only without an understanding of what these algorithms represent is WHY students cannot transfer that knowledge into real life situations.
One of the reasons we are in this new movement of more rigorous Standards is because Ivy League college professors are saying that students from the American Education system are really good at reciting facts! However, they cannot think for themselves. Students from other countries exceed American students in Critical Thinking Skills!
It is very hard for some teachers who were taught the memorizing method along with algorithms for every math situation to teach for understanding. This is why I have said before, we are re-training and learning this ourselves! Then there are the really SMart people who can look at a complex Algebra problem and explain in detail how the formulas work and how they are applied to real life..... Our Engineers, etc.... My husband!!
Seriously.. This is why people can't count back change when needed. Give us time, this next generation will be able to do that and more!

I guess we are not allowed to think anymore that people are not all born with the same level of intelligence or the same kind of problem solving. Thinking for oneself is good if you also consider the level of intelligence a person is born with. It is o.k. to think that some kids are gifted and some are special nowadays but don't bring up that are a lot of levels in between and not associated with cultural deprivation. That does not make students stupid or smarter, it is just the way they are born. Ability to learn is a spectrum and teachers who know this teach more effectively...but in this day and age you aren't able to talk about it.

I don't know why this is wrong to think, it is true. Some will never grasp higher math, some will never get to understand and enjoy language arts. Not all brains are created equal and sometimes memorization is a good tool. All of us are great people but some of us are not as academically gifted as others. OR athletically gifted and grunt hard work and studying and dedicated creative teaching can't change that entirely.

Be is am are was were been being seem appear become look taste sound feel smell.

[PammyJ]

[QUOTE=graciegirl;723650]I guess we are not allowed to think anymore that people are not all born with the same level of intelligence or the same kind of problem solving. Thinking for oneself is good if you also consider the level of intelligence a person is born with. It is o.k. to think that some kids are gifted and some are special nowadays but don't bring up that are a lot of levels in between and not associated with cultural deprivation. That does not make students stupid or smarter, it is just the way they are born. Ability to learn is a spectrum and teachers who know this teach more effectively...but in this day and age you aren't able to talk about it.



I don't know why this is wrong to think, it is true. Some will never grasp higher math, some will never get to understand and enjoy language arts. Not all brains are created equal and sometimes memorization is a good tool. All of us are great people but some of us are not as academically gifted as others.
Amen! Gracie! I agree with you! Not all will achieve higher levels. And we have to teach to the level the student is at! GONE ARE THE DAYS where you teach one way. We are talking about it and it is a part of our daily life in the schools. Teachers are held accountable for making sure the lowest student is making gains as well as that gifted student.. I didn't say we weren't teaching memorization. You and I both know, some students cannot memorize things due to the way their brain works. We have to teach how to figure things out from what we do know.
What we do in education is highly judged in the public. I at least try through my posts to explain that we are not a bunch of idiots educating the children.
I could go on and on how we accommodate for students individual needs. Extra effort pays off as long as you have the expectation that all children can learn.......and can reach their individual potential!!!

[PammyJ]

Without being too wordy:

We still teach basic facts, spelling, and grammar!!!!

I still believe that students need to be able to write and read cursive writing as well!

[gomoho]

Gracie - I think you hit on an interesting point about the unions. They have tremendous power so why didn't they fight to keep reading, writing and arithmetic in the classrooms to give these kids a good basis to build upon. And whose crazy idea was it to not teach cursive anymore???

[DougB]

Originally Posted by gomoho

Gracie - I think you hit on an interesting point about the unions. They have tremendous power so why didn't they fight to keep reading, writing and arithmetic in the classrooms to give these kids a good basis to build upon. And whose crazy idea was it to not teach cursive anymore???

I don't get what part you guys are not understanding. Why would you think reading, writing, and arithmetic are not being taught in our Florida schools. Did you know by Florida law, grades K - 5 must provide 90 minutes of uninterrupted reading instruction every day? If an elementary school has a 6th grade, then 6th grade also is required the same. When was the last time you looked at the Next Generation Sunshine State Standards and the newly implemented Common Core State Standards? And uh, cursive writing is being taught in our schools. It is introduced in the second semester of second grade.
Finally, this is Florida. Teacher unions in Florida do not tremendous power. I can't think of any union in Florida that has any power.

[PammyJ]

Originally Posted by gomoho

Gracie - I think you hit on an interesting point about the unions. They have tremendous power so why didn't they fight to keep reading, writing and arithmetic in the classrooms to give these kids a good basis to build upon. And whose crazy idea was it to not teach cursive anymore???

Just curious what your source is that proves we don't teach these things...?

It is not a reliable one. I do not know what we are doing each and everyday then.....hmmm!
My message is we are going beyond the basics, and teaching for understanding, not just memorization. All students can learn in their own way. Have you ever heard of Multiple Intelligences? Not all can learn from memorizing facts!
It is statements such as these that makes people believe that we don't teach reading, writing and arithmetic!

Not only do we have to teach handwriting, but now keyboarding skills for our students to make it in this world.

If we aren't teaching, are they learning to read by Osmosis?

[gomoho]

Can only speak from my own experience with my children in elementary school in the late 80's early 90's. They did not spend 1st grade on arithmetic, 2nd on subtraction, 3rd memorizing their multiplication tables and 4th on division. That is a sound basis and pretty much everyone got it during that year. They were busy introducing new math and algebra. Daughter was taught phonics and is an avid reader. Son was taught site reading and struggles to this day.

I have a great nephew and great niece currently in Florida schools and they are definitely not being taught cursive. We are teaching them when we see them. 4th grade this year.

We new how to make change and read and write and learned keyboarding when the time was appropriate and we learned the basics and "hold on to your hats" were probably better educated.