[RayinPenn]

When I read Lou's original comments I couldn't help but think about my religious journey. My Mom was very much a Roman Catholic until the day she passed. My Dad not so much.. (There is something about Irish men and the church). As a single fellow I was not much of a church goer... I married a similarly minded lutheran girl we would attend lutheran services occasionally and I would go to Saturday evening Catholic Mass with a friend. When my daughter and son were born we became more active in the lutheran church. Both of my kids are confirmed and go off to lutheran work camp each year and participate in lutheran activities.

As time has passed I have drifted away more and more from the Catholic Church. Too many scandals cover-ups and unchristian-like behavior I am ashamed of the hypocrisy. Our first married Lutheran Pastor in Penn was I highly educated 'hell fire and damnation preacher' I did find him over the top but I thought at least no scandals... A few years later he retired and a nice couple were selected and took over the ministry church (Some in the selection committee even said "God told me to select them") ... Then one day the He in the couple was gone - another nasty scandal. She remains and is a lovely person but I couldn't help but shake my head and question it all. We still attend occasionally and continue support the church's good works.

In the end my thinking is that we all are imperfect beings - Living a spiritual christian-like life is what is important... I want to close my eyes for the last time thinking I did my best and here are my good deeds.

Organized religion...err not so much.

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by kansasr

“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.” Gandhi

kansasr: Gandhi was the subject in a book excerpted by the Wall Street journal about a year or so ago. It was not exactly flattering . Having said that I agree with Gandhi's quote here because it centers on what is wrong with any organized religion that being humans self inflicted failures egos and struggle for power within an organization

Pope Francis sees this and support him in his efforts to break this power block. I do believe however that he needs a primer on capitalism

[DAWN MARIE]

Originally Posted by ilovetv

All of John MacArthur's sermons broadcasted are archived at the link below, for listening online.

Another great teacher of the God's Word is Erwin W. Lutzer of Moody Church in Chicago....program name at the link below is "Running to Win".

Teaching of the Bible in a relevant and applicable way to take home and apply in everyday contemporary life (not a wandering, off-the-cuff theology/theory lesson) is what people are hungry for all their lives (without actually pinpointing that need), and finally many are finding it in Scripture-teaching churches where God's Spirit is trusted to interpret and empower His Word every time it is read and proclaimed. God's Word never fails:

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
--Isaiah 55:11 (NASB)

Hear audio archives of MacArthur, Lutzer, Swindoll and many Spirit-guided teachers here:

Christian Ministries - Free Online Christian Radio Ministry Broadcasts - OnePlace.com

THANKS! Good stuff here. Love all the Pastors you mentioned! Check out Justin Peters who works with MacArthur when you get a chance.

[Carl in Tampa]

Originally Posted by ilovetv

All of John MacArthur's sermons broadcasted are archived at the link below, for listening online.

Another great teacher of the God's Word is Erwin W. Lutzer of Moody Church in Chicago....program name at the link below is "Running to Win".

Hear audio archives of MacArthur, Lutzer, Swindoll and many Spirit-guided teachers here:

Christian Ministries - Free Online Christian Radio Ministry Broadcasts - OnePlace.com

Thanks for the information on the link. There is a Christian radio station in Tampa that plays the pastors you list above as well as Ravi Zacharias, David Jeremiah and several others. I miss it.

Speaking of Moody Church, Theologian Dr. Paul Enns, author of The Moody Handbook of Theology (and many others) lives in Tampa and is a friend of mine. After the unexpected passing of his wife he began a study on Heaven and wrote a book which I recommend. Heaven Revealed: What Is It Like? What Will We Do?... And 11 Other Things You've Wondered About is the name of the book.

My favorite book on the subject of Heaven is Heaven by Randy Alcorn. He gives scriptural references for everything he describes about Heaven, AND he assures us that WE WILL HAVE PETS IN HEAVEN. Worth the read.

[DAWN MARIE]

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa

My favorite book on the subject of Heaven is Heaven by Randy Alcorn. He gives scriptural references for everything he describes about Heaven, AND he assures us that WE WILL HAVE PETS IN HEAVEN. Worth the read.

I've got this book. I've read maybe half of it. It's probably the best book on heaven out there. After those bogus heaven books hit the best seller lists I told a friend who was being sucked into all that stuff the truth and he got mad at me. Very mad. He wrote to Randy Alcorn who gave my friend the same advice (exactly) and the same scripture references I did. It was a hoot because up until that point I was not even familiar with Alcorn and did not have his book. I got it afterwards. Now, my friend (who is in his 70's) emails me all the time when he has questions about theology.

Sounds like we are definitely on the same page...

[Carl in Tampa]

Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE

Sounds like we are definitely on the same page...

Figuratively and literally.

[Golfingnut]

What insightful comments. I am learning at my age.

QUESTION: Would it be a bad thing if I was in support of Christian values and practiced the teachings while doubting the existence of God, Heaven and Hell? I am such an all or none personality, that it is very difficult for me when I see people claim to be Christian yet do and say things that are so contradictory to my understanding of faith.

EXAMPLE: I believe in an eye for an eye and will not turn the other cheek. For me it is as if the Bible was a living changing document until Jesus inspired the current version I will refer to as the King James Version. Then the morphing of Jewish to Christian and heals dug in. That's it, no more modification or updates. Regardless of how many chosen ones there were in the past, we are now the only path to the light. Could Jesus have been a well thought out conspiracy? I think, portions of the Old Testament, the Islamic Koran and the Bible are the way to believe and they should all be considered doors to an afterlife.

[DAWN MARIE]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

What insightful comments. I am learning at my age.

QUESTION: Would it be a bad thing if I was in support of Christian values and practiced the teachings while doubting the existence of God, Heaven and Hell? I am such an all or none personality, that it is very difficult for me when I see people claim to be Christian yet do and say things that are so contradictory to my understanding of faith.

EXAMPLE: I believe in an eye for an eye and will not turn the other cheek. For me it is as if the Bible was a living changing document until Jesus inspired the current version I will refer to as the King James Version. Then the morphing of Jewish to Christian and heals dug in. That's it, no more modification or updates. Regardless of how many chosen ones there were in the past, we are now the only path to the light. Could Jesus have been a well thought out conspiracy? I think, portions of the Old Testament, the Islamic Koran and the Bible are the way to believe and they should all be considered doors to an afterlife.

I see many contradictions with your post. You say you want to take the good Christian values on without God who instructed us to follow them? But yet you say you will NOT turn the other cheek when the opportunity arises? So basically you're saying some of the Christian teaching is ok but not all? How does this fit with your all or none personality? I'm kind of confused.

Your whole post here is confusing and I could argue easily each of your points. The OT did not morph into the Christian faith. The whole OT and NT are a consistent statement. The OT is revealed the NT and the NT is hidden in the OT. Quite amazing really. Another way of putting it is..the OT is like a shadow and the NT is the Body manifested out of that shadow.

No... Jesus is a historical figure that has been verified by many witnesses and the Koran and the Bible contradict each other so they cannot both be on the same path to heaven. They can both be wrong..but there's no way they can both be right.

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

What insightful comments. I am learning at my age.

QUESTION: Would it be a bad thing if I was in support of Christian values and practiced the teachings while doubting the existence of God, Heaven and Hell? I am such an all or none personality, that it is very difficult for me when I see people claim to be Christian yet do and say things that are so contradictory to my understanding of faith.

EXAMPLE: I believe in an eye for an eye and will not turn the other cheek. For me it is as if the Bible was a living changing document until Jesus inspired the current version I will refer to as the King James Version. Then the morphing of Jewish to Christian and heals dug in. That's it, no more modification or updates. Regardless of how many chosen ones there were in the past, we are now the only path to the light. Could Jesus have been a well thought out conspiracy? I think, portions of the Old Testament, the Islamic Koran and the Bible are the way to believe and they should all be considered doors to an afterlife.

perhaps my observation is incorrect but I detect a tone of not asking but actually telling people how you feel.

I said it in another post on another thread blind faith requires one come to God (Jesus Christ) as a child. Some people simply cannot relinquish such control. I truly envy people who have blind faith because such a surrender seems to empower them more than those who cannot relinquish such control

Perhaps its all imaginary but to quote "If God did not exist then man would have had to invent him"

God (Jesus Christ) real or inventive is a good thing because man has to believe in something greater than himself or his inventions. godless men commit atrocious acts because one or more of the seven sins over take them. Men who claim to do God's work, but do evil, cannot actually believe because if they did they could not and as such are deceivers

I am by nature a naturalist who believes in intelligent design but cannot determine its origins but there is organization and collaboration to this universe as is evidenced all around us and as the commercial says, ïts not nice to fool mother nature" Abortion is one of those meddling and it has had a pronounced effect on our population which ages quickly with a loss of a younger generation to take up the mantle

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE

I see many contradictions with your post. You say you want to take the good Christian values on without God who instructed us to follow them? But yet you say you will NOT turn the other cheek when the opportunity arises? So basically you're saying some of the Christian teaching is ok but not all? How does this fit with your all or none personality? I'm kind of confused.

Your whole post here is confusing and I could argue easily each of your points. The OT did not morph into the Christian faith. The whole OT and NT are a consistent statement. The OT is revealed the NT and the NT is hidden in the OT. Quite amazing really. Another way of putting it is..the OT is like a shadow and the NT is the Body manifested out of that shadow.

No... Jesus is a historical figure that has been verified by many witnesses and the Koran and the Bible contradict each other so they cannot both be on the same path to heaven. They can both be wrong..but there's no way they can both be right.

Sorry, but you need to read my post again I never said the OT morphed into the NT. I said many Jews morphed into Christians.
You did not get my meaning correct on anything you referenced from my post. You did make the intent of my post. That being no kind understanding, just fault with the opinions of others.

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by rubicon

perhaps my observation is incorrect but I detect a tone of not asking but actually telling people how you feel.

I said it in another post on another thread blind faith requires one come to God (Jesus Christ) as a child. Some people simply cannot relinquish such control. I truly envy people who have blind faith because such a surrender seems to empower them more than those who cannot relinquish such control

Perhaps its all imaginary but to quote "If God did not exist then man would have had to invent him"

God (Jesus Christ) real or inventive is a good thing because man has to believe in something greater than himself or his inventions. godless men commit atrocious acts because one or more of the seven sins over take them. Men who claim to do God's work, but do evil, cannot actually believe because if they did they could not and as such are deceivers

I am by nature a naturalist who believes in intelligent design but cannot determine its origins but there is organization and collaboration to this universe as is evidenced all around us and as the commercial says, ïts not nice to fool mother nature" Abortion is one of those meddling and it has had a pronounced effect on our population which ages quickly with a loss of a younger generation to take up the mantle

You have a history of interpreting my posts with meaning entirely different from what I say. Perhaps just ask me to clarify and I will do so promptly and as clearly as I am able.

[Abby10]

Great discussion on here and some good information - thank you Carl and Dawn Marie - I too enjoy listening to many of the Christian speakers that you mentioned. Golfingnut, sometimes you confuse me too. You seem kind of combative in your questioning but I have to believe that you are truly seeking answers for yourself. I say that because looking back, I probably appeared that way to others before becoming a believer myself 20 years ago. You all have a local Community Bible Study (CBS) at New Covenant United Methodist Church in The Villages. It is not affiliated with the church, or with any church for that matter, it just uses the facilities. Unfortunately, I think there is only a women's group meeting there now, but the organization does have men's groups (I believe there is one in Ocala). It is an in depth bible study open to anyone - all ages, all denominations, believers and unbelievers, at any level of knowledge. When I started attending a study years ago, I had very little knowledge of the Bible. If interested, check out the organization at their website - communitybiblestudy.org

[Abby10]

In rereading my previous post, I feel like it reads like an advertisement, but what I was trying to say, Golfingnut, if you really are interested in learning more and in engaging in some great discussion, check out the Community Bible Study group. Not only did I learn a lot, I gained some wonderful life long friends.

[Carl in Tampa]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

I think, portions of the Old Testament, the Islamic Koran and the Bible are the way to believe and they should all be considered doors to an afterlife.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are generally referred to as the three principal monotheistic faiths, all having their roots in the Biblical figure Abraham.

The precepts of each are mutually exclusive; that is to say that they would each reject your proposal that either of the other two provides the path to Heaven. Put in plain language, this is not a buffet; you must choose one of the three and reject the other two.

The only exception that I can think of to this is that there are many Christian theologians who teach that God does have a separate plan for religiously observant Jews who practice the Law --- that would be the minority of all Jews.

It is unlikely that an exchange of views on a web site is going to provide answers to the questions that you have. You might want to consider making an appointment with a minister in a local church for a private meeting. Also, I believe someone has recommended the book Mere Christianity to you. You might read that and see what your reaction is.

Keep seeking.

.

[DAWN MARIE]

another good book is "Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel. That would be a good book for Golfingnut to check out.

Abby another good bible study in the Villages is in Lady Lake and is attended by people from all denominations. It's run by Marv Rosenthal who comes in from Winter Garden. He's the one who built the Holy Land Experience in Orlando but sold it a number of years ago. I've been going there about 5 years now and believe it's the best in The Villages. It's at the 1st Baptist Church in Lady Lake at the intersection of 466 and Rolling Acres near the VFW.