[gfmucci]

Originally Posted by chelsea24

Mucci, what are you talking about now, you little woofer! * :joke:

I think human beings have always been and will always be the same. *It's just out there more. *We hear about it more. *

Not so.* History teaches that societies have their economic, military, and moral "ups and downs" mega-trends.* Societies don't always stay the same.* There are continuing cycles of prosperity, extravagance, excessive pride, complacency, decline, struggle, humility, and resurgence.* Various religions have various names for these phenomena.* One calls it "the pride cycle."* We are in a moral decline.* Liberals appear to relish it, deny it, or tolerate it more than conservatives do. Economic and military decline will follow over the coming decades.

Regards, Pessamucci.

[Russ_Boston]

Yes there are cycles throughout history. All empires fall at some point and regrettably we will probably follow suit. There are many good books on the subject.

I just don't find the moral decline as obvious as some on this board. Just because we said 'yes sir' and 'no thank you' more during the 50's and 60's doesn't mean we were more moral. As i mentioned you only need to look at how we treated others (blacks, American Indians, etc.) or how women were not considered equals in the business world (etc.) to know that perhaps the 'morality' was only superficial. But if that is what you mean by moral then I agree with you, maybe we were more kind on the surface.


Respectfully - Russ

[redwitch]

To me, it isn't the politeness. It is the fact that I remember the day when a handshake was all that was needed. Heck, you didn't even need the handshake, if you said you were doing something, it was considered done because it would be. Now, even a signed contract is just a way to get out of doing something. There are enough backout clauses to choke a horse. Our kids are taught that they aren't to blame for the broken window -- the Louisville Slugger was just made wrong and gave you too much power so the ball went through the window; the homework was too hard or too long and that's the teacher's fault. Worse yet, after the excuses are made for the child, the parent works hard to get their kid out of trouble -- sues the manufacturer, demands that the teacher make the homework easier, shorter or raise the grade for the slipshod work that was turned in.

Friends will plan to meet and then cancel because something better came along. Marriages break up because one half has gotten older and something newer has come along or one is bored. Competitors will go out of their way to steal another's customers. Businesspeople will come as close to possible to skirting the law as possible or even flat out break the law and just assume they won't be caught or get off with a slap of the wrist if they are (sadly, they're usually right, too).

From what I have seen, morals and values have declined. Not just for the younger generation but for ours and our parents. I've actually be called old-fashioned because if I say I am going to do something, I do it if at all humanly possible. When I do a job, I do the absolute best I can. And if I don't do it right, I do it again. My word is my bond -- it is for my child, my friends, my neighbors, strangers. I know there are others like me, I've met them. But, lately, I've met more that take the moral shortcuts than otherwise. It saddens me.

[samhass]

Red, I hear what you're saying, but before you go getting all holier than thou, didn't you do the equivalent of a dwarf toss in another thread? 1rnfl 1rnfl 1rnfl 1rnfl 1rnfl
You see, none of are perfect, try as we may. We can only hope that we've been good enough that we pass our exams on Judgement Day.

[redwitch]

roflao ... Me? Holier than thou? Oh, heck no! I know my imperfections all too well. But I do keep my word and I don't understand the saying of one thing and doing another. Just not my style and it does sadden me when others think their word is worthless.

And it was not a dwarf toss. It was more of a "Snow" job. :joke:

[Blondie]

As I have said before, I believe that thoughtful people can disagree. I think everyone has expressed good points, and we all speak from from the heart based on our own background.

Red, my experience leads me to believe what you have expressed to be true. I think things/people have evolved/changed, some for the better and some for the worse. One thing my experience has shown me is that, many folks (kids and adults) accept little responsibility for their behavior. We have evolved to a point that we must put a label everything. ADHD, PTSD, OCD, ASD, MDD, SAD, PPD, PDD, LD, MR......on and on and on. Please don't think I a saying that these things don't exist, I know they do and some are very debilitating; however, everytime someone makes a mistake, breaks the law, or fails in school is not because they have a disorder.

I believe that we may have allowed reasons to become excuses far too often.
IMHO

PS....I also believe in the words of Mother Teresa...."People are unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered. Love them anyway."

md blondie

[nONIE]

PS....I also believe in the words of Mother Teresa...."People are unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered. Love them anyway."

md blondie
[/quote]

Blondie, thankyou for the beautiful quote, so difficult to do but so worth the effort!

[gfmucci]

What is a "dwarf toss?"

By the way, part of the basis for my opinion is from several Human Resource professionals who have experienced a marked decline in the work ethic of the under 30 folk...college graduates who, for the most part, expect to be president of the company they apply for without earning it...expecting the silver platter with impatience.* Another part of the basis for my opinion is our culture's obsession with entertaining itself, whether through TV, movies, video games, sports, or Hollywood obsessions.* Considering all venues, I don't think this nation has ever spent so much time not working at some productive pursuit.* That will certainly catch up with us.* Our competition (China among others) will leave us in the dust.

[redwitch]

gf -- Dwarf toss was (is?) a horrible form of entertainment used in some bars -- whoever tosses a dwarf the farthest wins. They also use dwarfs for bowling.

BTW, folks, "dwarf" is a very specific body type of little people (larger head, barrel chest, bowed legs -- frequently have more skeletal illnesses than the average little person). Don't want to get beat up again for using the term (even though the first time around it was not necessarily accurate but needed for the joke to fit).

[gfmucci]

The fact that what was considered "immoral" and relegated to the shadows 40 years ago is accepted "out in the open" today makes the point of our moral decline.* The fact that immorality is now "out in the open" and accepted does not make it OK.* (unless you are of the moral relativist or irrelevant persuasion.)

[xNYer]

Women being allowed to work without harassment, attempts to eliminate discrimination against minorities, outright public hostility and aggression towards gays were all considered appropriate and acceptable in the 50's.

Are those indicative of a better value system and the disintegration of society caused by the events of the 60's?

[redwitch]

Originally Posted by gfmucci

I think the fact that what was considered "immoral" and relegated to the shadows 40 years ago is accepted "out in the open" today makes the point of our moral decline. The fact that immorality is now "out in the open" and accepted does not make it OK. (unless you are of the moral relativist or irrelevant persuasion.)

I guess it depends what you consider immoral. Bigotry (against blacks, Hispanics, basically any minority and gays) is immoral today, was accepted 40 years ago. Equal rights was non-existent 40 years ago. To me, the lynchings, beatings, Jim Crow laws were completely immoral. What people do in their bedrooms or other places in their homes is their business. So long as another person isn't unvoluntarily harmed, it is not immoral to me. It may not be what I would want to do, but, then, I there's a lot of things I don't want to do that others do. Child pornography is immoral and considered more so today than it was 40 years ago.

If the willingness to accept others as they are, to let others alone because of their sexual preference or practices is moral decline, then I say we need more of it. Accepting others as they are is not immoral, judging them for being different is (and that includes race, religion, creed, sexual preference) IMO.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by redwitch

I guess it depends what you consider immoral. Bigotry (against blacks, Hispanics, basically any minority and gays) is immoral today, was accepted 40 years ago. Equal rights was non-existent 40 years ago. To me, the lynchings, beatings, Jim Crow laws were completely immoral. What people do in their bedrooms or other places in their homes is their business. So long as another person isn't unvoluntarily harmed, it is not immoral to me. It may not be what I would want to do, but, then, I there's a lot of things I don't want to do that others do. Child pornography is immoral and considered more so today than it was 40 years ago.

If the willingness to accept others as they are, to let others alone because of their sexual preference or practices is moral decline, then I say we need more of it. Accepting others as they are is not immoral, judging them for being different is (and that includes race, religion, creed, sexual preference) IMO.

I absolutely agree Red. Another thing that I think is that a person is born gay or heterosexual. I don't think they can be changed. A lot of people do think it is a choice.

[travelstiles]

Whether it's genetic or choice, what's the difference? Live and let live.

[samhass]

Well said, Red and xNYer. While I think there has been a marked decline in general civility, I think we have made great strides in accepting one another regardless of race, religious belief, or sexual orientation. Like Gracie, I don't think people have a choice about being homosexual. I believe they are born that way. Think about it, if it was a choice, why would you ever choose to be gay and suffer the treatment many gays receive? You wouldn't. Your gay/lesbian friend may be the best friend you will ever have. I know this is off topic but it wouldn't be the first time that had happened.