[Joan cole]

For once, a true thinker who has reached higher consciousness

[djplong]

Originally Posted by tophcfa

OK, I’ll bite. If all the immigrants coming into our country (many of which are entering illegally) aren’t filling the country’s need for cheap labor, then why the hell don’t we close the borders?

Amazing how people can be fleeing gang persecution, rape and murder and your takeaway is making sure we have enough cheap labor to exploit.

[Joe C.]

IMHO .... Capitalism is great! You know, "No risk, no reward", "Fortune favors the bold", and all that stuff. However, to prevent greed, there is a need for business regulation. No monopolies, regulation of public utilities, etc. But socialism? That's when the government pays people to do nothing, whether it's through laziness or lack of education, or disability. I'm a firm believer in contributing my efforts to success. If I work hard for myself, then I should benefit. If I work hard, should the government take my benefits and give them to someone who doesn't or won't work? I don't think so. I could go on..... welfare programs should be temporary, and not continue through several generations of the same families. In a capitalist society, any social programs should have a short time frame. Remember ..... You can't make the weak stronger by weakening the strong.

[Villages Kahuna]

You assert,” We are in fact better off then people in any other country as large as ours. The problem is, as any economist will tell you, the result of rampant capitalism is socialism.”

Of course there is only one other country “as large as ours”, so your “survey” is badly flawed. In fact there are other countries that if not actually socialist are so heavily taxed that they operate like socialist countries. Various polls and interviews of residents of Scandinavian countries consistently show that they are very happy, trust their governments to provide a much wider variety of social services than are provided to Americans, and almost always reject the idea of moving to the U.S. as being undesirable to them.

Claims that U.S. capitalism and that our style of democracy are the best systems in the world are nowhere near as widely accepted throughout the world as many Americans assert.

As a matter of fact, the way our democracy is currently operating and my perception of the chances that it will change doesn’t tempt me to be an unfettered proponent for our systems. Finns, Swedes, Danes and Norwegians respond to surveys saying that they like the services and policies of their democratically-elected governments and would have little interest in moving to the U.S. They understand that they are paying taxes to support the government policies and programs offered to them and find that quite acceptable.

As far as I’m concerned saying that I am happy with the breadth and quality of governmentally-provided programs here in the U.S. is incorrect. Saying that I actually trust my elected representatives couldn’t be farther from the truth. I’m too old to move to another country to achieve such satisfactions and trust and I fear for what the U.S. will become for my grandchildren. I wish I could have higher hopes.

[ProfessorDave]

A different view to consider:
A. Capitalism - Socialism... is actually a myth.There is no country on earth that currently meets any of the definitions you will find in dictionaries, encyclopedias or academic work.

B. A Better Version For Dialogue... two spectrums - multiple layers. At either end of each spectrum is a) "collectivism" - political policy/government control that is best for society - is best for the individual too and b) "individualism" - political policy/lack of government control that is best for the individual - is best for society as a whole. Place those spectrums against different layers of a society and you get a more realistic evaluation than "capitalism and socialism". These layers include: economic, healthcare, shelter, safety /laws, freedom of general choice, education, etc.

For example - if on a spectrum - with "1" being collectivism and "10" being individualism - you might consider China as healthcare = 2; shelter = 2; safety = 1; freedom of general choice = 4 but trending lower; and economics = 4 (up from a 1 - 20 years ago.)

For example - if on a spectrum - with "1" being collectivism and "10" being individualism - you might consider United States as healthcare = 8 - 20 years ago, trending towards a 5 (Obamacare); shelter = 9 - 20 years ago trending towards an 8 (min. low income housing in developments); safety = 7 - 20 years ago trending towards a 4 (i.e. class action suits - individual not responsible for decisions - like smoking); freedom of general choice= 9 trending towards a 6 (abortion; guns) and economics = 9 - 20 years ago to a 7 (OSHA Rules; Government Filings; etc.); and military has been a "1" for years (collectivism) - which by the way - people like Jefferson were against - wanted militias. And - as a reality of history - one of the reasons "right to bear arms" is such a watered down - different interpretations topic is that it was compromise wording allowing collaboration between an organized military (including even the founding of West Point) and those who did not want an organized military as the primary defense - but wanted country defense primarily by militias.

The United States has never had pure capitalism (total freedom of choice in purchasing and production without government interference - but it was more free than most. What I find interesting is that most of the top ten countries in the world on economic / business freedom - closest to capitalism (Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, etc.) - and are much more free than even the US - are on the other hand considered "socialists" (I'd say collectivism) on education and healthcare.

Net/net. I find it easier to evaluate/consider societies based on the layer of the country - and to what degree policy and government control is primarily what's best for society versus what's best for the individual. Simplicity of capitalism and socialism as ways of looking at a society as a whole are not effective.

Hope this is helpful for some - and in their healthy dialogue with others.

[Worldseries27]

Originally Posted by airstreamingypsy

the borders are closed. They are only open on the fictional world of fox news.

so that wasn't nyc mayor adams ranting and raving
on national tv about texas bussing and flying them into nyc???

[retiredguy123]

You don't need to be much of a deep thinker to understand that most of the ideas on this thread will not work because they cannot be implemented. Most states and the Federal Government refuse to mandate a very simple system called "E-verify" where an employer can immediately determine if a worker has a valid Social Security number and is able to work legally.

[SHIBUMI]

We, in the US of A are far better off than our counterparts in China or Russia thanks to capitalism. Scandinavian countries are the equivalent to 1 of our states. They offer no retirement systems and help only the indigent. The complexity of dealing with multiple states is something they don't have to deal with. Which probably makes them happier. Capitalism with the right social programs is a chance for people to dream and make those dreams come true.

[Andyb]

If you open the door to social programs, you will eventually end up with Socialism, as is what is happening today.
And, by the way, I have not heard of any Economists state what your saying.

[undertaker]

You need to know what capitalism is and what it isn’t and what it is intended to do.

Capitalism is a money machine; it produces wealth in by and large an efficient and effective way by establishing a system where someone voluntarily gives money in exchange for a good or service. If the boss makes 1,000 times as much as the average worker, capitalism says not my department. I produce wealth. How it is distributed is not my business. That is the job of fiscal policy not monetary policy. Capitalism doesn’t concern itself with how the money is taxed or used. People often blame capitalism when they should be looking elsewhere.

[Blackbird45]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

You don't need to be much of a deep thinker to understand that most of the ideas on this thread will not work because they cannot be implemented. Most states and the Federal Government refuse to mandate a very simple system called "E-verify" where an employer can immediately determine if a worker has a valid Social Security number and is able to work legally.

The problem here is that employers are not held accountable. If you impose a heavy fine on the employer for not reporting an employee without verifying their status you would have more control who is in this country. Take the Texas abortion rule where anyone can collect a reward for turning anyone in for violating the law. You'll put that in place and see how fast employers will stop hiring illegal immigrants.

[YeOldeCurmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Rich Iwaszko

no guts no glory............it's all about economic philosophy only

Rich, while I think this is a great topic, the likelihood that it won't become political is huge.

People have different ideas about capitalism and socialism.

The basic idea behind capitalism is free enterprise, which also entails freedom of speech and self-determination. It protect the rights of the individual. Its goal is the maximization of profit. This can lead to class differences and market monopoly, and abuse of the individual by those with the capital / wealth, and oligarchy (rule by an elite class).

The basic idea behind socialism is the greatest good for the greatest number. The rights of the society as a whole supersede that of the individual. It has been said that the mark of a great society is how well they care for its weakest members, and also that socialism is the political expression of Christianity. However, it can lead to the suppression of the individual and the stifling of incentive, and control of the society by a small group or oligarchy (rule by an elite class).

See where this is headed? I myself think that we need to find a balance whereby the individual is not stifled but at the same time the weakest in society are cared for. In my opinion we have a long way to go to get there. And while I'm not an economist, it doesn't seem to me that anyone has come up with an economic theory that will solve this problem.

[joelfmi]

Originally Posted by Larchap49

Just look at the history of socialism and see if your opinion holds up. It won't. But if not convinced pack up and move your ass to a socialist country where you will have no rights and can work hard and give half your earning to the socialist government.

Looking at what is happening now it is being taken shape in USA

[YeOldeCurmudgeon]

Originally Posted by joelfmi

Looking at what is happening now it is being taken shape in USA

Right, the corporations are making record profits with the lowest taxes in history, and the divergence between the rich and poor is also the greatest in our history, because there is little regulation and legislation is on the side of corporations because of Citizens United and other SCOTUS rulings.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Rich Iwaszko

Hi,
Capitalism has proven to be the best economic system in the world. We are in fact better off then people in any other country as large as ours. The problem is, as any economist will tell you, the result of rampant capitalism is socialism. When the workers of a country are getting abused some social programs are needed to stabilize the situation. examples, minimum wage laws, social security, unions. We have in fact looked to other parts of the world for cheap labor, as our labor is no longer cheap, and cheap labor is the coal that stokes capitalism. So we don't make anything anymore. We have become middle men for their products. Cheap labor has long been abused and still is, it's just not our people. My point here is that we have to accept some social programs so that capitalism won't disappear leaving total socialism and military rule like in many other countries. The trick is the right social programs. All thoughts are welcome..........

Looking to other countries for cheap labor has the benefits of lower costs for INDIVIDUAL companies. That's great for them. But, there are other GREAT costs for the US and US society. Namely, China and others STEAL our technology. There are additional shipping costs to making goods overseas. We have singlehandedly made China into a world power that rivals the US and NOW threatens us MILITARILY. It has increased supply disruptions of important goods and medicines for the US. This even includes even CRITICAL military parts.

Outsourcing has made individual Corporations rich, but has been responsible for the average wages of US citizens remaining constant (with respect to inflation) since 1970. Outsourcing in combination with bad tax policy has given the US the greatest WEALTH DISPARITY in the 1st world. The country that fought a revolution against KINGS now is again ruled by KINGS.........Corporate KINGS......Bezos, Zuckerberg, etc, etc!!!!!!