[tainsley]

Originally Posted by donb9006

Women have the advantage of...if they fail, they can always get married and be provided for. Men don't have that option. Men only get what they can earn. It's a BIG difference.

You're kidding, right?

[donb9006]

Originally Posted by tainsley

You're kidding, right?

Why would you think I'm kidding? You don't agree?

Please...enlighten me then...I'm waiting to hear your opinion on how women seek out men to marry.

My experience is a woman just has to look good to attract men, a man has to have something tangible to attract women. It's the basis for the "beauty industry" and the reason men compete to make more money. Men date/marry women without a job, assets, or income all the time...how many woman will date/marry a man with nothing? It's a reason men SHOULD make more...it's costs us more to have a life. How many women "buy men drinks"? Buy men dinner? Not regularly they don't. Women generally "date for free", men get stuck with the bill. I saw a story not too long ago about a particular woman who admitted to using on-line dating to go out every day and night for free. A different first date every day. It was sickening. But it happens regularly. Not EVERY day...but often enough.

Of course, I'm painting with a broad stroke, not all are like that, but a lot are. Enough for it to be a pretty accurate stereotype.

[Suzi]

Originally Posted by tainsley

You're kidding, right?

Holy Smokes! How OLD are you? Listen Buster: women are educated and then CHOOSE to be married and have children. We can do it all. The modern women is not the "helpless" women you have apparently known before. We are independent, worldly, organized, ambitious, driven, nurturing and CUTE. We choose to marry so that we can give birth and successfully raise the next generation of leaders of our country.

Ooops. I think you pushed the wrong button.

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by donb9006

Why would you think I'm kidding? You don't agree?

Please...enlighten me then...I'm waiting to hear your opinion on how women seek out men to marry.

My experience is a woman just has to look good to attract men, a man has to have something tangible to attract women. It's the basis for the "beauty industry" and the reason men compete to make more money. Men date/marry women without a job, assets, or income all the time...how many woman will date/marry a man with nothing? It's a reason men SHOULD make more...it's costs us more to have a life. How many women "buy men drinks"? Buy men dinner? Not regularly they don't. Women generally "date for free", men get stuck with the bill. I saw a story not too long ago about a particular woman who admitted to using on-line dating to go out every day and night for free. A different first date every day. It was sickening. But it happens regularly. Not EVERY day...but often enough.

Of course, I'm painting with a broad stroke, not all are like that, but a lot are. Enough for it to be a pretty accurate stereotype.

[graciegirl]

For many years it was how a woman LOOKED and what a man DID.

Now breadwinner roles are all over the charts. Some are female, some are tandem, some are male, some take turns, and Unfortunately losers still marry losers and after the sex dies down and the all nighters with babies kick in, ya get a look at the real person you chose.

I was really, really lucky, is all I have to say.

Thank you Sweetie for marrying into a family of strong women and encouraging our daughters to be the same..

[shcisamax]

As I said earlier, these statements are condescending at every level. One could go all the way back in time and talk about the hunters and travelers who were mobile and women who had to stay to take care of the babies so were disadvantaged not being afforded the chance to become educated. One could go back and examine how women have been used and subjugated in every sense and in servitude throughout history while their exploiters enjoyed the fruits and their freedom. One could refer to the inability of ownership, or loss through marriage...oh where shall I stop with the struggle of being a woman throughout history...Suddenly we find ourselves in the modern times where women have successfully fought (certainly they didn't bat their eyelashes) for their equality and education and right to their bodies and still are fighting for equality of pay and position..please do not belittle womanhood by saying they are all about getting a man to marry to be taken care of...

BTW: Have you noticed all the "enhancements" out there for men? Hair, teeth, bodybuilding galore, facelifts and all the same plastic surgery, endless fashion, heightened shoes, and on and on and on. Equal opportunity to like the way you look.

[tainsley]

I'm not going to bite DonB! I do want to say I was raised to be independent and work hard. My mother and father raised four children. They both worked hard all their lives and we all turned out fabulous! My husband and I both worked hard for forty some years, we both raised our three great kids (and they too are pretty fabulous, independent and hard working)! Life has been good for us...not perfect but happy! A great marriage and ALWAYS a team!

[donb9006]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

For many years it was how a woman LOOKED and what a man DID.

Now breadwinner roles are all over the charts. Some are female, some are tandem, some are male, some take turns, and Unfortunately losers still marry losers and after the sex dies down and the all nighters with babies kick in, ya get a look at the real person you chose.

I was really, really lucky, is all I have to say.

Thank you Sweetie for marrying into a family of strong women and encouraging our daughters to be the same..

And our society has never been worse off.

Each sex has their strengths and weaknesses. We should be modeling society to take advantage of those strengths and weaknesses...but we don't...we create "one size fits all" and "zero tolerance" and screw everything up.

Life and society WAS better in the past when we had defined roles. It's why girls really do prefer dolls and dressing up to the guns and construction sets that boys adore.

We're a product of marketing. They've marketed that idea that everyone needs to work to have bigger and better everything...and a new one every year. They've marketed debt slavery to the masses and the masses have eaten it up. Because they get to have more "stuff".

What's the percentage of children being "raised" by some barely cognizant foreigner to whom english is a second language getting minimum wage? It's too high!

IMO, many women have relegated their natural responsibility to their child for a paycheck so they can go on vacation and eat out.

Also IMO, women can have a career...until they have a child...and from that point on...that child is their #1 priority. And it's the mans job to provide everything she needs to accomplish that duty.

Yes, I'm "old fashioned", but that's the way nature intended it to be. It's why we "pair up". It's why marriage was invented. Two people in a symbiosis, all designed for the welfare of their children. Each doing what they've been designed by nature to do. It's not complicated...we make it complicated.

[donb9006]

Originally Posted by shcisamax

As I said earlier, these statements are condescending at every level. One could go all the way back in time and talk about the hunters and travelers who were mobile and women who had to stay to take care of the babies so were disadvantaged not being afforded the chance to become educated. One could go back and examine how women have been used and subjugated in every sense and in servitude throughout history while their exploiters enjoyed the fruits and their freedom. One could refer to the inability of ownership, or loss through marriage...oh where shall I stop with the struggle of being a woman throughout history...Suddenly we find ourselves in the modern times where women have successfully fought (certainly they didn't bat their eyelashes) for their equality and education and right to their bodies and still are fighting for equality of pay and position..please do not belittle womanhood by saying they are all about getting a man to marry to be taken care of...

BTW: Have you noticed all the "enhancements" out there for men? Hair, teeth, bodybuilding galore, facelifts and all the same plastic surgery, endless fashion, heightened shoes, and on and on and on. Equal opportunity to like the way you look.

It's marketing...plain and simple. Marketers, advertisers, trying to expand their market. Thank the "gay agenda" for that. Making men feminine.

These are just opinions...something else to think about. Get your brain stirring a bit. I never claimed to be omniscient.

[BarryRX]

Originally Posted by donb9006

And our society has never been worse off.

Each sex has their strengths and weaknesses. We should be modeling society to take advantage of those strengths and weaknesses...but we don't...we create "one size fits all" and "zero tolerance" and screw everything up.

Life and society WAS better in the past when we had defined roles. It's why girls really do prefer dolls and dressing up to the guns and construction sets that boys adore.

We're a product of marketing. They've marketed that idea that everyone needs to work to have bigger and better everything...and a new one every year. They've marketed debt slavery to the masses and the masses have eaten it up. Because they get to have more "stuff".

What's the percentage of children being "raised" by some barely cognizant foreigner to whom english is a second language getting minimum wage? It's too high!

IMO, many women have relegated their natural responsibility to their child for a paycheck so they can go on vacation and eat out.

Also IMO, women can have a career...until they have a child...and from that point on...that child is their #1 priority. And it's the mans job to provide everything she needs to accomplish that duty.

Yes, I'm "old fashioned", but that's the way nature intended it to be. It's why we "pair up". It's why marriage was invented. Two people in a symbiosis, all designed for the welfare of their children. Each doing what they've been designed by nature to do. It's not complicated...we make it complicated.

You're correct in one way. We used to have more defined roles. Men could be whatever they wanted to be (as long as they had the ability) and women could be whatever men let them be, which wasn't much. I'm only 64 years old, but can remember a time when women who were probably a lot smarter than I am we're limited to being a teacher or a nurse if they chose to work. Perhaps we should only limit women to being Moms. To me, insisting on those "traditional" roles is not much different than forcing them to stay home and make them dress in burqua's. I also find it amusing that a couple of us guys are debating a women's role in society. I am guessing that we will shortly hear from some very smart, talented, and strong women.

[Trish Crocker]

Donb, you are contradicting yourself. On the one hand, you are saying that women and men have clearly defined roles and that this is how it 'should' be, then on the other you are basically saying that women are lazy, that they use the men in their lives. Wow! You stated that things are worse now than ever but you are sooo wrong. Young women today are educated, ambitious and taking care of themselves, including paying for dates. I find it insulting to ALL women that you think we all look for a man to take care of us. This is ridiculous! Many women work because they love their careers, many take time off to raise families, others continue to work because, contrary to your beliefs, they aren't doing it for the vacations, etc....they are doing it to help put a roof over their families head. Yes, I married a man that makes more money than I do but that had nothing to do with it. I married him because he is good, kind, puts up with me and makes me feel loved and appreciated. The character and ethics that he has is what I fell in love with, and this is also why he is successful. I actually feel sorry for you. I started this post with a simple little story that I wanted to share, perhaps I shouldn't have titled it the way I did. I didn't realize that it would hit anyones mysoginist button.

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by Trish Crocker

Donb, you are contradicting yourself. On the one hand, you are saying that women and men have clearly defined roles and that this is how it 'should' be, then on the other you are basically saying that women are lazy, that they use the men in their lives. Wow! You stated that things are worse now than ever but you are sooo wrong. Young women today are educated, ambitious and taking care of themselves, including paying for dates. I find it insulting to ALL women that you think we all look for a man to take care of us. This is ridiculous! Many women work because they love their careers, many take time off to raise families, others continue to work because, contrary to your beliefs, they aren't doing it for the vacations, etc....they are doing it to help put a roof over their families head. Yes, I married a man that makes more money than I do but that had nothing to do with it. I married him because he is good, kind, puts up with me and makes me feel loved and appreciated. The character and ethics that he has is what I fell in love with, and this is also why he is successful. I actually feel sorry for you. I started this post with a simple little story that I wanted to share, perhaps I shouldn't have titled it the way I did. I didn't realize that it would hit anyones mysoginist button.

A more intelligent and coherent argument than his posts deserve. Well said Trish!

[shcisamax]

This is a little off topic but speaks to the issue that women marry to be taken care of. I think not.

The history of marriage dates back as far as the ancient times. Studies revealed that marriage didn’t exist before. The usual practice was that the men in a certain tribe or horde had access to the women they like. When children are born, they belonged to the whole community. This is associated with the perception that humans want sexual variety. However, things have changed when sexual morality was developed and has since influenced the social life of the people.

The earliest marriage was believed to be ‘group marriage’. The union was basically between groups of men and women, and there exists shared sexual relations. The group marriage allowed polyandry, and this existed in Ceylon, India, and Tibet many years ago.

The origin of marriage is a great debate subject. Many people are wondering how marriage began. There have been studies that claim the existence of marriage 4,350 years ago. Before this time, families were made up of less organized groups consisting of more or less than thirty people. The group consisted of men that shared women. With the introduction of agricultural civilization, the society demanded for stable arrangements.

It is said that the first union between a man and a woman took place in Mesopotamia at 2350 BC. Marriage evolved since then and such practice was observed by the Romans, Greeks, and Hebrews. However, the union was never about love or religion. The primary purpose of the marriage is to ensure that the man’s children are biologically his, and so women were treated as mere ‘property’.

Wives were expected to stay at home and attend to the children, as well as house chores. A husband can give back his wife if she is unable to produce children. The ancient people also turned to prostitutes, concubines, or male lovers to satisfy their needs for sexual variety.


History of Marriage
With the increasing power of the Catholic Church, religion was able to influence marriage. For a marriage to be considered as legal, a priest’s blessing was required. Around the 8th century, marriage was treated as a sacrament by the church, and that the ceremony is required for the couple to receive God’s grace. By the year 1563, a canon law was written to show marriage’s sacramental nature.

Many wives favored the blessings of the church. By that time, men already respected their wives and divorce was forbidden. The church still recognized the husband as the head of the family, and that wives must submit to the wishes of the husband. The church emphasized the importance of being sexually faithful. A lot of men were pressured of this great change since by nature, men wanted sexual variety. With the increasing awareness of social morality, men were able to adjust gradually.

Today, marriage is not just about practical reasons. The couple usually has a deep feeling for mutual devotion and love. Romantic love is said to have existed since the Middle Ages. Some say that romantic love was conceptualized by the French. Indeed, love was able to change the way people view marriage. The latter was no longer treated as a pragmatic transaction. However, the belief that wives were owned by their husbands remained for centuries.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by shcisamax

This is a little off topic but speaks to the issue that women marry to be taken care of. I think not.

The history of marriage dates back as far as the ancient times. Studies revealed that marriage didn’t exist before. The usual practice was that the men in a certain tribe or horde had access to the women they like. When children are born, they belonged to the whole community. This is associated with the perception that humans want sexual variety. However, things have changed when sexual morality was developed and has since influenced the social life of the people.

The earliest marriage was believed to be ‘group marriage’. The union was basically between groups of men and women, and there exists shared sexual relations. The group marriage allowed polyandry, and this existed in Ceylon, India, and Tibet many years ago.

The origin of marriage is a great debate subject. Many people are wondering how marriage began. There have been studies that claim the existence of marriage 4,350 years ago. Before this time, families were made up of less organized groups consisting of more or less than thirty people. The group consisted of men that shared women. With the introduction of agricultural civilization, the society demanded for stable arrangements.

It is said that the first union between a man and a woman took place in Mesopotamia at 2350 BC. Marriage evolved since then and such practice was observed by the Romans, Greeks, and Hebrews. However, the union was never about love or religion. The primary purpose of the marriage is to ensure that the man’s children are biologically his, and so women were treated as mere ‘property’.

Wives were expected to stay at home and attend to the children, as well as house chores. A husband can give back his wife if she is unable to produce children. The ancient people also turned to prostitutes, concubines, or male lovers to satisfy their needs for sexual variety.


History of Marriage
With the increasing power of the Catholic Church, religion was able to influence marriage. For a marriage to be considered as legal, a priest’s blessing was required. Around the 8th century, marriage was treated as a sacrament by the church, and that the ceremony is required for the couple to receive God’s grace. By the year 1563, a canon law was written to show marriage’s sacramental nature.

Many wives favored the blessings of the church. By that time, men already respected their wives and divorce was forbidden. The church still recognized the husband as the head of the family, and that wives must submit to the wishes of the husband. The church emphasized the importance of being sexually faithful. A lot of men were pressured of this great change since by nature, men wanted sexual variety. With the increasing awareness of social morality, men were able to adjust gradually.

Today, marriage is not just about practical reasons. The couple usually has a deep feeling for mutual devotion and love. Romantic love is said to have existed since the Middle Ages. Some say that romantic love was conceptualized by the French. Indeed, love was able to change the way people view marriage. The latter was no longer treated as a pragmatic transaction. However, the belief that wives were owned by their husbands remained for centuries.

I read it all, but I gotta say this. Me and Sweetie are like Sandhill cranes.
Yup.

[DougB]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I read it all, but I gotta say this. Me and Sweetie are like Sandhill cranes.
Yup.

Gracie and Sweetie