[OldDave]

OK, I'll take a shot at a civil answer, because I like the way you asked. I did write a personal response to Jack, but decided that wasn't appropriate as encouraged by the Admin the other day, so I didn't send it.

Certainly this is a subject that generates strong feelings. And as Gracie said, with religion and politics (and this is both) you really cannot change other people's beliefs.

I don't have a dog in this fight. My wife and I have been married for 40 years.

So with that background let me say a couple of things. Yes Rosie has a bad marriage track record, but does that somehow speak to all gay marriages? As I pointed out Nabors and his partner have been together as long as me and my wife. I will never forget the coverage of New Hampshire when they change their laws. The first couple married were two of the sweetest looking ladies who had been together for more than 50 and were both successful professional people. How can their union hurt anyone. The truth is gay people are just a good, just as bad, as the rest of us.

As to the church marriage vs. civil union argument. It seems on the surface logical. The problem is what if the gay couple are just as committed to their religous beliefs are you are? They don't want a civil union, they want the same marriage you had. More and more churches are accepting this. They want the same rights. So it it's OK with their church, I don't see how someone in another church can object. And I"m not sure looking at the history of marriage really works too well. In the bible you get into multiple partners, taking your dead brother's wife, and one of the yuckier parts of the bible, not allowing seed to be spilled and getting your daughters involved. Marriage is an ever changing institution.

This country was founded on religious freedom, and it is critical to a free society. We seem to have forgotten this a bit in the last couple of decades as some groups want to force their religious beliefs not only on other people, but into law. The only way freedom of religion can work is to have freedom from religion too. That would be Religion with a capital R as in middle ages in Europe when the church was the goverment. That doesn't work too well as I recall.

Bottom line, ask yourself how two old men in Hawaii that obviously care very much for each other, getting married, hurts you. The voters of Washington State decided this was OK. That's how this country works.

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by OldDave

OK, I'll take a shot at a civil answer, because I like the way you asked. I did write a personal response to Jack, but decided that wasn't appropriate as encouraged by the Admin the other day, so I didn't send it.

Certainly this is a subject that generates strong feelings. And as Gracie said, with religion and politics (and this is both) you really cannot change other people's beliefs.

I don't have a dog in this fight. My wife and I have been married for 40 years.

So with that background let me say a couple of things. Yes Rosie has a bad marriage track record, but does that somehow speak to all gay marriages? As I pointed out Nabors and his partner have been together as long as me and my wife. I will never forget the coverage of New Hampshire when they change their laws. The first couple married were two of the sweetest looking ladies who had been together for more than 50 and were both successful professional people. How can their union hurt anyone. The truth is gay people are just a good, just as bad, as the rest of us.

As to the church marriage vs. civil union argument. It seems on the surface logical. The problem is what if the gay couple are just as committed to their religous beliefs are you are? They don't want a civil union, they want the same marriage you had. More and more churches are accepting this. They want the same rights. So it it's OK with their church, I don't see how someone in another church can object. And I"m not sure looking at the history of marriage really works too well. In the bible you get into multiple partners, taking your dead brother's wife, and one of the yuckier parts of the bible, not allowing seed to be spilled and getting your daughters involved. Marriage is an ever changing institution.

This country was founded on religious freedom, and it is critical to a free society. We seem to have forgotten this a bit in the last couple of decades as some groups want to force their religious beliefs not only on other people, but into law. The only way freedom of religion can work is to have freedom from religion too. That would be Religion with a capital R as in middle ages in Europe when the church was the goverment. That doesn't work too well as I recall.

Bottom line, ask yourself how two old men in Hawaii that obviously care very much for each other, getting married, hurts you. The voters of Washington State decided this was OK. That's how this country works.

You remind me of a carpenter like Jesus. They say measure twice and cut once. Well, you must have thought at least twice to put down this sensible well thought out response. Thank you.

[OldDave]

Thank you for the kind words, Golf. I appreciate it.

[ilovetv]

Understood. But I differ with this: "Bottom line, ask yourself how two old men in Hawaii that obviously care very much for each other, getting married, hurts you. The voters of Washington State decided this was OK. That's how this country works."

This is based on feelings of a minority group (as in WA voters are a minority among 50 states in the Union). "That's how this country works"......I don't think so. How our country works, I think, is forming our laws and systems toward what is not only good for the individual, but what is good for the whole nation's social and legal fabric being strongly woven and not easily torn nor worn threadbare.

What if the voters in WA decided it "doesn't hurt anybody" for first cousins or brothers-sisters or mother-sons to get married?

It may not hurt anybody individually nor in their community, but over time if it became norm, this would have a damaging effect on the whole nation's social fabric....and health.

[OldDave]

U.S. law holds that marriage is a state's right issue. And just like our NRA discussion a couple of weeks ago, the "well if they do this, then they will do this" just doesn't hold water. I recall some pretty horrible predictions: if we gave women the right to vote, if minorities were allowed in baseball or in the armed forces, and on and on.

These changes in state laws did not happen over night. They have been the result of decades of debate. And to paraphrase some of the ruder posters on this site, if you don't like the laws in Washington State, I wouldn't move there.

[ilovetv]

Originally Posted by OldDave

U.S. law holds that marriage is a state's right issue. And just like our NRA discussion a couple of weeks ago, the "well if they do this, then they will do this" just doesn't hold water. I recall some pretty horrible predictions if we gave women the right to vote, if minorities were allowed in baseball or in the armed forces, and on and on.

These changes in state laws did not happen over night. They have been the result of decades of debate. And to paraphrase some of the ruder posters on this site, if you don't like the laws in Washington State, I wouldn't move there.

Regarding "the "well if they do this, then they will do this" just doesn't hold water."......

I did not put the example of cousins, siblings or parent/child hypothetically marrying in order to say that "if they do homosexual marrying, then they will do incestuous marrying". I put it as an example of how a group's feelings of acceptability and goodness for the rest of society is not exactly "how this country works".

[Cantwaittoarrive]

Originally Posted by villagerjack

Personally, I believe marriage is between a man and a women.

[Cantwaittoarrive]

Originally Posted by OldDave

OK, I'll take a shot at a civil answer, because I like the way you asked. I did write a personal response to Jack, but decided that wasn't appropriate as encouraged by the Admin the other day, so I didn't send it.

Certainly this is a subject that generates strong feelings. And as Gracie said, with religion and politics (and this is both) you really cannot change other people's beliefs.

I don't have a dog in this fight. My wife and I have been married for 40 years.

So with that background let me say a couple of things. Yes Rosie has a bad marriage track record, but does that somehow speak to all gay marriages? As I pointed out Nabors and his partner have been together as long as me and my wife. I will never forget the coverage of New Hampshire when they change their laws. The first couple married were two of the sweetest looking ladies who had been together for more than 50 and were both successful professional people. How can their union hurt anyone. The truth is gay people are just a good, just as bad, as the rest of us.

As to the church marriage vs. civil union argument. It seems on the surface logical. The problem is what if the gay couple are just as committed to their religous beliefs are you are? They don't want a civil union, they want the same marriage you had. More and more churches are accepting this. They want the same rights. So it it's OK with their church, I don't see how someone in another church can object. And I"m not sure looking at the history of marriage really works too well. In the bible you get into multiple partners, taking your dead brother's wife, and one of the yuckier parts of the bible, not allowing seed to be spilled and getting your daughters involved. Marriage is an ever changing institution.

This country was founded on religious freedom, and it is critical to a free society. We seem to have forgotten this a bit in the last couple of decades as some groups want to force their religious beliefs not only on other people, but into law. The only way freedom of religion can work is to have freedom from religion too. That would be Religion with a capital R as in middle ages in Europe when the church was the goverment. That doesn't work too well as I recall.

Bottom line, ask yourself how two old men in Hawaii that obviously care very much for each other, getting married, hurts you. The voters of Washington State decided this was OK. That's how this country works.

I don't think your statements on laws and religion are acurate. Many of the laws on the books today have their roots in English common law, much of the common laws roots come from religions beliefs, some biblical, some church so I think to try to totaly seperate religion from law is flawed. That's like saying we can't have a law against murder because the ten commandments say you shouldn't commit murder. Freedom of religion has more to do with not legislating what religion you must believe in, not what the law says per se. For example at the time of the founding fathers if you lived in England the Church of England was the government sponsored religion

[NIPAS K-9]

Originally Posted by villagerjack

Personally, I believe marriage is between a man and a women.

I AGREE.....................

[mac9]

I remember in my lifetime that inter-racial marriages were illegal. Marriage is the commitment of two people to unify. Just that.

[lanabanana73]

I am thrilled for Jim and his partner. My youngest son came out when he was 16. I was devastated! I had to go through an entire grieving process, grieving those dreams I had for my son that would not come to pass. I also made a point of finding as many gay men as possible and hearing their stories, because I wanted to understand. That changed my heart. I came to the realization that gays/lesbians are not awful people, as I had been taught......a danger to the traditional family. They are just like you and me! Gay/lesian couples lead boring lives just like us heterosexual couples!

A change of heart came to my husband one day when he had been through a particularly trying experience and when he had a chance to slip away and call me, as soon as he heard my voice, he broke down and cried....telling me of his day. He said that on his way home he was pondering what it meant to him to have me in his life.....a person with whom he knew he could share EVERYTHING, knowing he was safe. He had an epiphany and realized that all humans deserve to have someone in their lives with whom they feel so safe and that he wanted that kind of relationship for all of his children, including his gay son!

Marriage builds strong family units. I see no reason to deny gay people the opportunity to build family units. That makes for a stronger society and benefits all of us. More casseroles at the neighborhood pot lucks!

Just my two cents.......

[quirky3]

Originally Posted by lanabanana73

I am thrilled for Jim and his partner. My youngest son came out when he was 16. I was devastated! I had to go through an entire grieving process, grieving those dreams I had for my son that would not come to pass. I also made a point of finding as many gay men as possible and hearing their stories, because I wanted to understand. That changed my heart. I came to the realization that gays/lesbians are not awful people, as I had been taught......a danger to the traditional family. They are just like you and me! Gay/lesian couples lead boring lives just like us heterosexual couples!

A change of heart came to my husband one day when he had been through a particularly trying experience and when he had a chance to slip away and call me, as soon as he heard my voice, he broke down and cried....telling me of his day. He said that on his way home he was pondering what it meant to him to have me in his life.....a person with whom he knew he could share EVERYTHING, knowing he was safe. He had an epiphany and realized that all humans deserve to have someone in their lives with whom they feel so safe and that he wanted that kind of relationship for all of his children, including his gay son!

Marriage builds strong family units. I see no reason to deny gay people the opportunity to build family units. That makes for a stronger society and benefits all of us. More casseroles at the neighborhood pot lucks!

Just my two cents.......

That's beautiful, LanaB! Thanks for sharing!

[In awe of TV]

Originally Posted by lanabanana73

I am thrilled for Jim and his partner. My youngest son came out when he was 16. I was devastated! I had to go through an entire grieving process, grieving those dreams I had for my son that would not come to pass. I also made a point of finding as many gay men as possible and hearing their stories, because I wanted to understand. That changed my heart. I came to the realization that gays/lesbians are not awful people, as I had been taught......a danger to the traditional family. They are just like you and me! Gay/lesian couples lead boring lives just like us heterosexual couples!

A change of heart came to my husband one day when he had been through a particularly trying experience and when he had a chance to slip away and call me, as soon as he heard my voice, he broke down and cried....telling me of his day. He said that on his way home he was pondering what it meant to him to have me in his life.....a person with whom he knew he could share EVERYTHING, knowing he was safe. He had an epiphany and realized that all humans deserve to have someone in their lives with whom they feel so safe and that he wanted that kind of relationship for all of his children, including his gay son!

Marriage builds strong family units. I see no reason to deny gay people the opportunity to build family units. That makes for a stronger society and benefits all of us. More casseroles at the neighborhood pot lucks!

Just my two cents.......

Absolutely perfect - so well said! We are only here for a short time. It is not easy to find someone to love, someone to spend your life with. I've been divorced for almost a decade and would really cherish someone in my life, who is deserving that is. I wish a life of bliss to everyone, regardless of their body preference.

[2BNTV]

Did anyone notice that Jim is almost 82 years old? Why wait any longer to find more happiness that he wanted with his partner.

Like "Golden Pond" paraphrased: "he is going to be 82 years old, when do you expect this friendship to begin". Everyone is entitled to happiness.

[duffysmom]

Originally Posted by lanabanana73

I am thrilled for Jim and his partner. My youngest son came out when he was 16. I was devastated! I had to go through an entire grieving process, grieving those dreams I had for my son that would not come to pass. I also made a point of finding as many gay men as possible and hearing their stories, because I wanted to understand. That changed my heart. I came to the realization that gays/lesbians are not awful people, as I had been taught......a danger to the traditional family. They are just like you and me! Gay/lesian couples lead boring lives just like us heterosexual couples!

A change of heart came to my husband one day when he had been through a particularly trying experience and when he had a chance to slip away and call me, as soon as he heard my voice, he broke down and cried....telling me of his day. He said that on his way home he was pondering what it meant to him to have me in his life.....a person with whom he knew he could share EVERYTHING, knowing he was safe. He had an epiphany and realized that all humans deserve to have someone in their lives with whom they feel so safe and that he wanted that kind of relationship for all of his children, including his gay son!

Marriage builds strong family units. I see no reason to deny gay people the opportunity to build family units. That makes for a stronger society and benefits all of us. More casseroles at the neighborhood pot lucks!

Just my two cents.......

Beautifully said Lana and I'm happy that your son has two parents who have accepted and love him.