[Bucco]

Originally Posted by janmcn

If the NRA gets it's way, it will no longer be necessary to lock up your guns as you will not be charged in these type of cases.

Also, the Florida Legislature is proposing expanding the 'Stand Your Ground Law' to make it perfectly legal to fire warning shots into the air. What a stellar idea. Can you imagine sitting at the town squares and having warning shots fired all around you?

Reading these stories makes me sick to my stomach. I have an eight year old great nephew.

Now is the time to contact your FL legislator, since their annual session begins on Tuesday. Not that it will do any good.

Allow me to correct, or at least put into proper context what you are saying.

1. Laws governing the locking of guns is mostly a state effort, which is good although there are laws on the books now. A federal law passed in 2005 covers it and in Florida ..."states that any person who stores or leaves a loaded firearm on premises under his or her control, and who knows or reasonably should know that a person under age 16 is likely to gain access to the firearm without the lawful permission of the minor’s parent or person having charge of the minor, or without supervision required by law, must do one of the following:

Keep the firearm in a securely locked box or container;

Keep the firearm in a location which a reasonable person would believe to be secure; or

Secure the firearm with a trigger lock.1

According to what I could find, the NRA is also in strong support of that....can you allow us where you are getting the NRA proposal ??

2. The expansion of the Stand your Ground law simply is clarifying. About 23 states have this law, and problem was in Florida that you were in more serious danger if you pulled a gun and warned someone.....you seemed to be better of LEGALLY to shoot. That is the clarification being made. Just wanted to clarify the way your presented it.

[janmcn]

NRA fights for the right to leave unsecured guns around children.


NRA News Fights For The Right To Leave Unsecured Guns Around Children | Blog | Media Matters for America

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by janmcn

NRA fights for the right to leave unsecured guns around children.


NRA News Fights For The Right To Leave Unsecured Guns Around Children | Blog | Media Matters for America

WITH all due respect, have you actually read that article ? Beyond the headline I mean ?? WOW is all I can say.

And,as I said, it is still very misleading to say what you said and I again do not have a dog in this race, but misleading stuff like this tends to distort any discussion...it just aint true...PLEASE read the article. This is an article I will keep as I am engaged in ongoing work on the media distortion of facts.

I am not defending the NRA, just defending honesty actually.

I will offer the following from the NRA website...

"Store guns so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons.
Many factors must be considered when deciding where and how to store guns. A person's particular situation will be a major part of the consideration. Dozens of gun storage devices, as well as locking devices that attach directly to the gun, are available. However, mechanical locking devices, like the mechanical safeties built into guns, can fail and should not be used as a substitute for safe gun handling and the observance of all gun safety rules."

Education and Training|NRA Gun Safety Rules

[TexaninVA]

Originally Posted by janmcn

NRA fights for the right to leave unsecured guns around children.


NRA News Fights For The Right To Leave Unsecured Guns Around Children | Blog | Media Matters for America

Your post is an excellent example of the pure emotionalism that always seems to surround this debate. It's not about scaring people ... it's not about having a bogeyman to point at ... it's about a right to defend yourself.

The source you cite is also mega-partisan thus hardly persuasive.

[buggyone]

[QUOTE=TexaninVA;838364]

. it's about a right to defend yourself.


I guess the 8 year old boy's uncle defended himself with his pistol quite well?

Now, he will have to have a lawyer defend him!

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by TexaninVA

Yes, I know, and the uncle was a moron and should be prosecuted or sued. But, in the meantime, most gun owners are responsible so let's not overreact by constraining our legitimate right to self defense. That's where these discussions seem to always lead.

When I was in elementary school, in a one-square-mile middle-to-upper class suburb of Pittsburgh, our family doctor, who was obviously intelligent enough to get through medical school, kept a loaded gun in the desk in his home office. His teenage son and younger son were fooling around in the office after school one day, and found the gun. The teenager pointed it at his younger brother. It went off and killed the brother. I was there in school when the principal showed up and pulled their young sister out of the classroom. She was younger than I, but the news somehow traveled fast through the school.

This family was never the same. The son and the father retreated to a place no one could reach. We were a close-knit community, back in the '60s, with elementary through high school all at the same spot, within walking distance for everyone. Everyone knew everyone. Everyone used Dr. Koenig. Everyone experienced the devastation that ensued.

My first point is that it doesn't take a moron to fail to practice safety where guns are concerned. It crosses all socio-economic boundaries, all intelligence levels.

My second point is that many of us formed our views about gun ownership from personal experiences. I know I did. I was only in the sixth grade. I knew these people, played with Steve and Danny Koenig, and I am haunted to this day.

I know some will say anecdotal, blah, blah, blah. But it keeps happening, doesn't it?

[Bucco]

This debate is seemingly going the way of politics, and single stories. To those who have strong opinions.....if gun deaths plummet as gun sales soar.....what do you think that means ? And please leave your politics at the door. Again, my opinion, this subject falls into that category of media spurred, media flamed political discussions. SILENCE until a noteworthy death occurs, then time to make some point with no regard to facts.

I sincerely want to hear counters to what appears to be solid information, not political mish mash

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by CFrance

When I was in elementary school, in a one-square-mile middle-to-upper class suburb of Pittsburgh, our family doctor, who was obviously intelligent enough to get through medical school, kept a loaded gun in the desk in his home office. His teenage son and younger son were fooling around in the office after school one day, and found the gun. The teenager pointed it at his younger brother. It went off and killed the brother. I was there in school when the principal showed up and pulled their young sister out of the classroom. She was younger than I, but the news somehow traveled fast through the school.

This family was never the same. The son and the father retreated to a place no one could reach. We were a close-knit community, back in the '60s, with elementary through high school all at the same spot, within walking distance for everyone. Everyone knew everyone. Everyone used Dr. Koenig. Everyone experienced the devastation that ensued.

My first point is that it doesn't take a moron to fail to practice safety where guns are concerned. It crosses all socio-economic boundaries, all intelligence levels.

My second point is that many of us formed our views about gun ownership from personal experiences. I know I did. I was only in the sixth grade. I knew these people, played with Steve and Danny Koenig, and I am haunted to this day.

I know some will say anecdotal, blah, blah, blah. But it keeps happening, doesn't it?

I respect your feelings, but according to statistics, it does NOT keep happening. I have a special interest in the media control over our life...not sure where this fits, but thus far as sales rise, deaths go down, BUT if a story can tug at us, the media will explode with it and repeat it over and over.

I would ask why can't we put our politics aside when having such a discussion,but our media does not allow that.

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by Bucco

This debate is seemingly going the way of politics, and single stories. To those who have strong opinions.....if gun deaths plummet as gun sales soar.....what do you think that means ? And please leave your politics at the door. Again, my opinion, this subject falls into that category of media spurred, media flamed political discussions. SILENCE until a noteworthy death occurs, then time to make some point with no regard to facts.

I sincerely want to hear counters to what appears to be solid information, not political mish mash

I understand what you are saying Bucco, but "facts" can be and are often manipulated to make the point favored by the author. Personal experiences, rational opinions, and even politics ( much to my dismay) are or can be, a legitimate part of the discussion.

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by Bucco

I respect your feelings, but according to statistics, it does NOT keep happening. I have a special interest in the media control over our life...not sure where this fits, but thus far as sales rise, deaths go down, BUT if a story can tug at us, the media will explode with it and repeat it over and over.

I would ask why can't we put our politics aside when having such a discussion,but our media does not allow that.

But Bucco... the rate of incidence may be going down, but the accidents are still happening.

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

I understand what you are saying Bucco, but "facts" can be and are often manipulated to make the point favored by the author. Personal experiences, rational opinions, and even politics ( much to my dismay) are or can be, a legitimate part of the discussion.

You are absolutely correct, but as you maintained in a separate debate...I think the facts were supplied by the DOJ, the FBI, etc, not a media or group with special interests.

My point about the personal stories is to simply point out, this is ONLY an issue when a STORY sadly occurs that fits the position to be told. It does not seem ever to go anywhere near facts or context. It is left entirely to emotions, which is why the selection of and presentation of selected stories is used.

Listen I do not own a gun, have no feelings at all about the NRA...I was/am struck by the seemingly political only discussions....

I think that is inspired by the media.

I took this opportunity to ask the OP and others who have, or seem to have, strong feelings on this how they feel about the FACTS.

I have no desire to divide....but I do not like discussions that may or may not, influence legislation in this country to be devoid of discussion of facts...and you know I agree that source is important...presented by the countries law enforcement experts.

To allow that is just like giving it up and allowing the loudest and best financed to dictate law.

I will shut up and go away, but discussing single incidents wrapped around seeking legislation, without allowing facts to enter is wrong in my .

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by CFrance

But Bucco... the rate of incidence may be going down, but the accidents are still happening.

Yes..sadly. But do you ever hear this debate in context...do you ever hear how sad a situation was, but keep in mind, etc. Do you ever hear a legitimate, adult conversation.

I may have missed them, but all I hear is sensationalism, and attempts to put folks on the defense. I recall my reading these facts, but NEVER hearing anything about them anywhere. And when alluded to, you are put on the defensive (as I am feeling)

I simply asked a question about what folks think about those stats...I have heard about the NRA alleged and untrue movement, stand your ground, etc.

Locking of guns are covered by law...federal and state (in 23 states).....what is our point of these sensational stories if it has no point EXCEPT ..for what ?

Let us discuss much more strict punishment for DUI, which does factually kill many...let us make a headline for every crash that kills children because of DUI. Those stories are presented in a much different light !

[TexaninVA]

[quote=buggyone;838372]

Originally Posted by TexaninVA

. it's about a right to defend yourself.


I guess the 8 year old boy's uncle defended himself with his pistol quite well?

Now, he will have to have a lawyer defend him!

So what would you truly, honestly like to see? The Australian solution where private ownership of firearms is outlawed? What would you recommend?

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by Bucco

Yes..sadly. But do you ever hear this debate in context...do you ever hear how sad a situation was, but keep in mind, etc. Do you ever hear a legitimate, adult conversation.

I may have missed them, but all I hear is sensationalism, and attempts to put folks on the defense. I recall my reading these facts, but NEVER hearing anything about them anywhere. And when alluded to, you are put on the defensive (as I am feeling)

I simply asked a question about what folks think about those stats...I have heard about the NRA alleged and untrue movement, stand your ground, etc.

Locking of guns are covered by law...federal and state (in 23 states).....what is our point of these sensational stories if it has no point EXCEPT ..for what ?

Let us discuss much more strict punishment for DUI, which does factually kill many...let us make a headline for every crash that kills children because of DUI. Those stories are presented in a much different light !

Well, we may be talking in the same vein. One of my points was that personal experience with gun tragedy colors many people's views on gun ownership laws--including mine. If they could show me that if everyone bought a gun these incidents would disappear, I'd be out at the nearest gun shop.

I do, however, think we hear about every innocent person who is killed by a drunk driver. And I think it has gone a long way toward tightening the drinking/driving laws and penalties.

But where are the penalties for the idiots who leave loaded guns lying around the house for whatever reason? Do they end up in jail like the drunk drivers? I'd like to see those statistics, because I believe they are simply pitied because they suffered a tragedy but not made to pay for their stupidity/laziness/lack of awareness.

[CFrance]

[quote=TexaninVA;838415]

Originally Posted by buggyone

So what would you truly, honestly like to see? The Australian solution where private ownership of firearms is outlawed? What would you recommend?

A common misconception is that firearms are illegal in Australia and that no individual may possess them. While it's true that Australia has restrictive firearms laws, rifles and shotguns (including semi-automatic), as well as handguns are all legal within a narrow set of criteria.


the federal government and the states and territories agreed to a uniform approach to firearms regulation, including a ban on certain semiautomatic and self-loading rifles and shotguns, standard licensing and permit criteria, storage requirements and inspections, and greater restrictions on the sale of firearms and ammunition. Firearms license applicants are required to take a safety course and show a “genuine reason” for owning a firearm, which could not include self-defense. The reasons for refusing a license would include “reliable evidence of a mental or physical condition which would render the applicant unsuitable for owning, possessing or using a firearm.” A waiting period of twenty-eight days would apply to the issuing of both firearms licenses and permits to acquire each weapon.

A common-sense approach, IMO.