[CFrance]

Originally Posted by gomoho

Actually I would only know that if I attempted to vote a 2nd time, but thank you for that information

Not exactly, gomoho. After you vote, the only part of the poll that shows up every time you access that thread is the poll results, not the "vote" part.

[JB in TV]

Originally Posted by gomoho

Actually I would only know that if I attempted to vote a 2nd time, but thank you for that information

Sorry, perhaps you misunderstood my comment. Once you vote, it shows at the top of the thread that you have already voted, with the results to date, and doesn't give you the opportunity to vote again. I wasn't trying to be curt.

[gomoho]

Thank you - didn't notice that on the medical marijuana post I did vote on.

[JB in TV]

gomoho, you are welcome. It is easy to miss as we don't have alot of polls on this forum.

[joerocker]

Originally Posted by TexaninVA

Amazing because of the distorted view you have of religion. Yes, many have died in religious wars over the years, and Islam remains excessively violent today, but I don’t think anyone can seriously deny that, overall, religion has had a hugely beneficial impact. There would be no civilization without it … pure and simple. You’re able to lead your “march to a different beat” lifestyle (which no one begrudges you btw) because Western Civilization, based on Christianity, has evolved to give you those rights. Think about it please.

As far as someone telling you how to live your life, while it plays well emotionally, it’s a complete straw man. I don’t think anyone has told you what to do lifestyle wise since you were a kid, and you probably rebelled against that like a lot of us did.

“Who is to judge?” becomes “no one can judge anything” in contemporary culture, which means no limits at all over time. We both know that. Even though we will draw the line at different places for different things, we all “judge” constantly …every day, including you. Who we associate with, what we do, etc. You know that as well as anyone is my guess.

I repeat, religion by and large, has given us civilization, warts and all. It also is the only real force that enables rule by law. Historically, human nature can be quite savage and, without the glimmer of an internal conscience instilled by religion...yes judging what is right and wrong … we would be in a Darwinian world. North Korea is a good example of that.

In terms of people starting not with pot but with caffeine, nicotine etc … while a clever argument it’s really disingenuous. You could throw in eating, breathing and sleeping too I imagine. I think most people recognize that, for pretty much all heroin or cocaine addicts, pot was indeed the gateway. And I do think drug use is a crutch … for various reasons.

I think legalizing pot will screw up more lives over time than we currently recognize, but we clearly differ in our opinions about that, and my view is losing 70-30 in the poll. But, I still think my view will prove correct over time. The biggest losers will be our grandkids IMHO.

MY view of religion is distorted? There would be NO civilization without religion? Christianity GAVE me rights to freedom? I wonder who's view is distorted... A religion shouldn't "evolve", if it does, it's a false religion. If God really did dictate what he wants...then who is the one changing it to "evolve"? There are thousands of different "views" of what Christianity should be. Are you SURE you chose the right one? Positively?

How can one rebel against nothing? You tell me there were no restrictions and then say I didn't heed the restrictions...which is it? And I may add...are you serious when you say there are no restrictions on my lifestyle? Then why are we discussing something that IS restricting my personal lifestyle choice?

We should judge for ourselves, WE decide what we will and won't do. Don't you agree that is a better system than someone arbitrarily deciding for you? Do you enjoy being told, like a child, what you can and can't do? Slaves are told what to do. Free men decide when/if they will do something.

What is the "force" religion uses? Fear of eternal punishment? Actual physical force? The natives that were here first will have different ideas about your religion. Non-distorted ideas.

Religion is the ONLY way to get people to live peacefully? Really? You have no conscience without religion? I have a conscience, I'm not religious.

You cite North Korea as an example of what is wrong in the world. When was your trip? After all, to cite it as an example, you must have personal experience. Or, as I imagine, it's more just listening to propaganda that others have told you? Ive seen pictures of NK, it's VERY clean. The people looked like they were having a good time, smiling, laughing. They seemed well fed. Contrary to what we are told about the place. One picture was a nighttime satellite shot showing how dark NK is at night. If you ask me, they're happier at home sleeping than the shift workers here up all night toiling away. Things are seldom what you're told they are. Lies are everywhere.

Now you're getting it...correlation does NOT mean causation...chew on that a bit. Eating, drinking, ARE done by addicts, but it didn't CAUSE their addiction any more than marijuana did. Drug use, along with religion, are ALL crutches.

People said the same about alcohol legalization. The world was going to go down the toilet after legalization. It didn't. The same will happen this time. There may be a brief upswing because of the "newness" of being able to purchase it legally. But as with alcohol, that will wane and level out.

The number one scare tactic...it will harm the children. Watch your kids, raise them YOURSELF and don't dump them into daycare, and you'll have some control over them. But an individual will do what that individual will do irregardless of your teachings.

People are not cattle to be herded. They're individuals who deserve freedom to make their own choices. And of course live with those choices. But we'd rather bail everyone out and reduce their freedoms instead. We'd rather limit freedoms and tell everyone what they can/can't have or do.

Not trying to do anything here but defend my position, nothing personal.

[gomoho]

And with freedom and the choices you make come consequences - as long as you are willing to accept them and nobody beside yourself gets hurt in the process go for it.

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by joerocker

Why is it "amazing" that someone might think religion worse than a plant? Do you have any idea how many deaths are attributed to religion over the span of human history? How many deaths are DIRECTLY related to this plant we're discussing?

Why would you think we all need some kind of religion? That's what I find amazing, that some people think we all need a religion.

To answer your question, differently. ALL people addicted to heroin did NOT "start" with pot. I'm sure not one did. IMO. they ALL started with caffeine, nicotine, or alcohol. Marijuana is "first" (not a gateway) of the illegal drugs because of its popularity and ease of access. Marijuana is no more responsible for a heroin addicts addiction than an ice cream cone or a doughnut causes a person to become addicted to sugar and morbidly obese. Use/eat responsibly! You don't fix idiots behavior by passing laws denying reasonable people of something they desire.

Marijuana prohibition is the same as alcohol prohibition. A fruitless enterprise that is unwinnable, ruins lives, and supports a huge underground network/economy run by ruthless profiteers. Just as with alcohol, people get what they want.

Go to the head of the class!

[graciegirl]

My response to you was not that I thought you needed religion JoeRocker. just that some, MANY find it a comfort. No one I know or have known in my life has used religion to kill others.


As I have said, my faith in God is missing at times, but others find their faith to be a comfort. I have never said anything scathing about pot users, just wonder how so many law abiding citizens obtain it.


I have enough problems with getting through life without ILLEGAL mind altering drugs.

[joerocker]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

My response to you was not that I thought you needed religion JoeRocker. just that some, MANY find it a comfort. No one I know or have known in my life has used religion to kill others.


As I have said, my faith in God is missing at times, but others find their faith to be a comfort. I have never said anything scathing about pot users, just wonder how so many law abiding citizens obtain it.


I have enough problems with getting through life without mind altering drugs.

And my point was that people don't "need" religion. People find comfort in all kinds of things. Their spouse, their children, their dog, a round of golf, a drink, and yes, even a few puffs of marijuana.

What I don't like is people who think THEY have all the answers when they don't. If you've never tried/experienced something, you can't possibly have an opinion. You're a victim of hearsay. You're parroting someone else's opinion.

Perhaps we're told NOT to do the things that bring us the most happiness. Something to think about. Governments want you dependent and afraid so we have a perceived need for them and their control over us.

People are still killing in the name of their religion. You may not know them personally, but it's happening.

Perhaps your moments of "missing faith" are really your moments of clarity? Why is religion accepted as comforting and yet other equally comforting things are taboo?

How did otherwise "law abiding" people get alcohol during prohibition? Because they wanted it, there was a demand, others provided that which was in demand. It's how it works. Demands are met.

That is your individual case. You've found "your thing" that helps you. Why not let others find "their thing" that helps them? Caffeine IS mind altering, if you drink coffee, tea, sodas, you're ingesting mind altering drugs. Smokers are ingesting mind altering nicotine. If you drink alcohol, your ingesting a mind altering drug. If you do an activity that you really enjoy, your body is making mind altering drugs that make you feel good. Runners high is real.

Using marijuana is not the big deal that we've been told it is. It's a case of "thou protests too much". It's made into much more of an issue than it should be. It's like fighting over beer when the real problem is hard alcohol. Marijuana is to "drugs" as beer is to hard alcohol. Yes, you can have "too much" but the real problems come from the "hard drugs". Most beer drinkers don't graduate to hard alcohol and they don't have the same problems that chronic hard alcohol drinkers have. Most marijuana users don't graduate to hard drugs and don't have the same problems that hard drug users have. Most people CAN self regulate themselves and use it responsibly.

I'm convinced it's the drug and alcohol manufacturers who are most against legalization because it will surely cut into their profits.

[TheVillageChicken]

Originally Posted by joerocker

And my point was that people don't "need" religion. People find comfort in all kinds of things. Their spouse, their children, their dog, a round of golf, a drink, and yes, even a few puffs of marijuana.

What I don't like is people who think THEY have all the answers when they don't. If you've never tried/experienced something, you can't possibly have an opinion. You're a victim of hearsay. You're parroting someone else's opinion.

Perhaps we're told NOT to do the things that bring us the most happiness. Something to think about. Governments want you dependent and afraid so we have a perceived need for them and their control over us.

People are still killing in the name of their religion. You may not know them personally, but it's happening.

Perhaps your moments of "missing faith" are really your moments of clarity? Why is religion accepted as comforting and yet other equally comforting things are taboo?

How did otherwise "law abiding" people get alcohol during prohibition? Because they wanted it, there was a demand, others provided that which was in demand. It's how it works. Demands are met.

That is your individual case. You've found "your thing" that helps you. Why not let others find "their thing" that helps them? Caffeine IS mind altering, if you drink coffee, tea, sodas, you're ingesting mind altering drugs. Smokers are ingesting mind altering nicotine. If you drink alcohol, your ingesting a mind altering drug. If you do an activity that you really enjoy, your body is making mind altering drugs that make you feel good. Runners high is real.

Using marijuana is not the big deal that we've been told it is. It's a case of "thou protests too much". It's made into much more of an issue than it should be. It's like fighting over beer when the real problem is hard alcohol. Marijuana is to "drugs" as beer is to hard alcohol. Yes, you can have "too much" but the real problems come from the "hard drugs". Most beer drinkers don't graduate to hard alcohol and they don't have the same problems that chronic hard alcohol drinkers have. Most marijuana users don't graduate to hard drugs and don't have the same problems that hard drug users have. Most people CAN self regulate themselves and use it responsibly.

I'm convinced it's the drug and alcohol manufacturers who are most against legalization because it will surely cut into their profits.

Irony.

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by joerocker

And my point was that people don't "need" religion. People find comfort in all kinds of things. Their spouse, their children, their dog, a round of golf, a drink, and yes, even a few puffs of marijuana.

What I don't like is people who think THEY have all the answers when they don't. If you've never tried/experienced something, you can't possibly have an opinion. You're a victim of hearsay. You're parroting someone else's opinion.

Perhaps we're told NOT to do the things that bring us the most happiness. Something to think about. Governments want you dependent and afraid so we have a perceived need for them and their control over us.

People are still killing in the name of their religion. You may not know them personally, but it's happening.

Perhaps your moments of "missing faith" are really your moments of clarity? Why is religion accepted as comforting and yet other equally comforting things are taboo?

How did otherwise "law abiding" people get alcohol during prohibition? Because they wanted it, there was a demand, others provided that which was in demand. It's how it works. Demands are met.

That is your individual case. You've found "your thing" that helps you. Why not let others find "their thing" that helps them? Caffeine IS mind altering, if you drink coffee, tea, sodas, you're ingesting mind altering drugs. Smokers are ingesting mind altering nicotine. If you drink alcohol, your ingesting a mind altering drug. If you do an activity that you really enjoy, your body is making mind altering drugs that make you feel good. Runners high is real.

Using marijuana is not the big deal that we've been told it is. It's a case of "thou protests too much". It's made into much more of an issue than it should be. It's like fighting over beer when the real problem is hard alcohol. Marijuana is to "drugs" as beer is to hard alcohol. Yes, you can have "too much" but the real problems come from the "hard drugs". Most beer drinkers don't graduate to hard alcohol and they don't have the same problems that chronic hard alcohol drinkers have. Most marijuana users don't graduate to hard drugs and don't have the same problems that hard drug users have. Most people CAN self regulate themselves and use it responsibly.

I'm convinced it's the drug and alcohol manufacturers who are most against legalization because it will surely cut into their profits.

Great post

[PennBF]

May as well give it up. If someone wants to avoid the wonders of life and escape into a drug induced state they will do it regardless of what anyone says. If someone does not care the impact of the drug availability on the children and want to live for today regardless as to how it may hurt children they will still do it regardless of the harm to family and children. If someone has no respect for the harm that will come to families from a drug induced state they will do it regardless of what impact it has on society/family. When we say drugs it includes Pot, Coke, Heroin, Booze, etc.etc. All are just a way of altering reality in the mind and avoiding the joys of life. They must decide for themselves and nothing anyone can say will convince them of the harm to themselves and all around them. It is a terrible way to live but it remains their choice.

[graciegirl]

The use of marijuana is illegal. (AT THIS TIME AND WHERE WE LIVE)


Most of us have children and grandchildren who we have tried to teach to abide by the law.


Alcohol is legal. Couldn't you all just wait and drink until pot is legal?


Gracie who feels today like a very old person.

[joerocker]

Originally Posted by PennBF

May as well give it up. If someone wants to avoid the wonders of life and escape into a drug induced state they will do it regardless of what anyone says. If someone does not care the impact of the drug availability on the children and want to live for today regardless as to how it may hurt children they will still do it regardless of the harm to family and children. If someone has no respect for the harm that will come to families from a drug induced state they will do it regardless of what impact it has on society/family. When we say drugs it includes Pot, Coke, Heroin, Booze, etc.etc. All are just a way of altering reality in the mind and avoiding the joys of life. They must decide for themselves and nothing anyone can say will convince them of the harm to themselves and all around them. It is a terrible way to live but it remains their choice.

That is so twisted... Most people enjoy life a little more with a little something. Some beer, wine, whatever. People having a few drinks at a party, when going out dancing, have a better time than those who are "teetotalers". It may seem "a terrible way to live" in your opinion. But that's all it is, your opinion.

Stop with the children meme. Please. All our children are not drunks since alcohol was re-leagalized. They're not all going to become hooked on heroin because marijuana is becoming legalized.

The same could be said for those who "find religion", IMO, they are in a delusional state, absent from reality. Yet nobody seems to mind.

Maybe you should try a drink some time. Or are you an alcoholic? Then I agree YOU should abstain from anything you could become addicted to. Let the rest of us enjoy ourselves. Responsibly.

[joerocker]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

The use of marijuana is illegal. (AT THIS TIME AND WHERE WE LIVE)


Most of us have children and grandchildren who we have tried to teach to abide by the law.


Alcohol is legal. Couldn't you all just wait and drink until pot is legal?


Gracie who feels today like a very old person.

That's what we're trying to change...an unjust law prohibiting something that people want.

That is a problem too. Following laws, just because they're laws. No matter how draconian they are. You're inadvertently teaching them to be good little drones, good little followers. Is that what you want them to be? Or would you rather they question and decide for themselves what is right/good for them.

Alcohol was illegal. It was grass roots efforts like what is happening now with marijuana that changed the law. Just because it's a law, doesn't mean it's a good or just law.

Nothing personal Gracie, as always, I'm just trying to give others another way to look at things. I don't have all the answers either. Far from it.