[bopat]

Not only is the grid going to crash, the ice age is coming down from canada, the oceans are going to rise and wipe everyone out, global warming will kill you, cow farts will force us all to eat crickets, there will be a shortage of fresh water, hackers will steal everything you have, and what's left you won't own, and the world is going to be nuked.

Now I'm heading off to play some golf.

[Cuervo]

Originally Posted by CybrSage

How do people without garages or driveways charge their cars overnight? Think apartments, condos , street parking, etc.

Europe has charges on the streets and her there are complexes that are installing them in their garages. I had my driveway redone last year, I have an Ioniq 6, I could not get my car into the garage for over a week, I drove to Costco they had a number of Electrify America charges, when you buy an EV from Hyundai, they have a deal with this company, you get 2 years of free charging.

[Cuervo]

Originally Posted by Topspinmo

Henry ford model T was designed to run on alcohol which could be made no need for gas stations, just make some moonshine Standard oil came up with idea to use waste byproduct produced from kerosene for automobile’s.

I was unaware of that, but if it ran on alcohol or toothpaste the infrastructure was not in place to compete with a horse, yet here we are today, bumper to bumper. EVs will go through the same type of evolution, except we have the knowledge and the capability to get electric where we need it.

[Michael G.]

Originally Posted by Harold.wiser

California regularly has rolling blackouts yet they want everyone in electric cars. The grid cannot handle the load. It makes no sense.

When I lived in the Midwest I offend wondered what would happen in winter when a cold
front took the temps down near zero, and a power grid was wiped out for a week or so how many houses would have frozen pipes.

And with all the new builds, are we keeping up the demand?

[keepsake]

Your neighbors will be laughing when your new fangled coolant, catches on fire.

[Pugchief]

Originally Posted by CybrSage

How do people without garages or driveways charge their cars overnight? Think apartments, condos , street parking, etc.

Originally Posted by Cuervo

Europe has charges on the streets and her there are complexes that are installing them in their garages. I had my driveway redone last year, I have an Ioniq 6, I could not get my car into the garage for over a week, I drove to Costco they had a number of Electrify America charges, when you buy an EV from Hyundai, they have a deal with this company, you get 2 years of free charging.

Your hot water heater goes out, and you have to take cold showers for 2 days until they can install a new one. Annoying but tolerable. Now how about you have to take cold showers ALWAYS bc you don't HAVE a water heater? Translation: You didn't mind using public charging ONCE as a minor inconvenience, but imagine living in an apartment and having to go charge at Costco or Walgreens or wherever EVERY 2 days and sit there for AN HOUR, assuming you could even get an open charging bay. I doubt too many people would be willing to do that.

If you have a garage you can charge in overnight (suburbs, TV, rural) and you drive shorter distances, EVs are great. If you live in the city, or most apartments, they are not practical. This may change in the future, but it's reality now.

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by Cuervo

Europe has charges on the streets and her there are complexes that are installing them in their garages. I had my driveway redone last year, I have an Ioniq 6, I could not get my car into the garage for over a week, I drove to Costco they had a number of Electrify America charges, when you buy an EV from Hyundai, they have a deal with this company, you get 2 years of free charging.

Right now, if you can't "charge at home", the economic model changes drastically. There's no free lunch.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by Cuervo

I was unaware of that, but if it ran on alcohol or toothpaste the infrastructure was not in place to compete with a horse, yet here we are today, bumper to bumper. EVs will go through the same type of evolution, except we have the knowledge and the capability to get electric where we need it.

No infrastructure needs for corn gas, it was home made until Rockefeller got his hooks in Henry ford. By time EVs take over we will long dead and buried.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by Michael G.

When I lived in the Midwest I offend wondered what would happen in winter when a cold
front took the temps down near zero, and a power grid was wiped out for a week or so how many houses would have frozen pipes.

And with all the new builds, are we keeping up the demand?

Only in suburbs. People living in Country knew how to survive without depending on cities grid or Uncle Sam.

[Caymus]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

Right now, if you can't "charge at home", the economic model changes drastically. There's no free lunch.

Do you know if the rates include state/federal gas taxes?

[BrianL99]

Originally Posted by Caymus

Do you know if the rates include state/federal gas taxes?

From ChatGPT:

"" EV-specific taxes:
• Some states have begun charging annual EV fees to replace lost gas tax revenue (e.g., $100–$200/year), but these are not included in the per-kWh rate.

✅ So yes — most quoted EV charging rates include electricity taxes and fees, but not long-term vehicle fees.

⸻

⛽ Gasoline Prices: Do Include Taxes
• The price per gallon already includes federal and state fuel taxes:
• Federal gas tax: ~18.4¢/gallon
• State gas tax: varies, up to ~60¢/gallon (e.g., California, Illinois)
• Combined, taxes can make up 10–20% of the price at the pump.

✅ Gas prices at the pump always include taxes.

⸻

🧮 Bottom Line (Adjusted View):
• EV charging cost per mile includes most usage-based taxes.
• Gasoline cost per mile includes all per-gallon fuel taxes.
• Annual EV fees (in some states) slightly offset the savings — worth factoring in for long-term cost comparisons."

[Rocksnap]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

Most EVs are cleaner than most ICE vehicles. Whether that matters is a personal decision.

EV’s are NOT cleaner than ICE vehicles. Many studies have been accomplished. When you add up the start to finish, EV’s at far dirtier than ICE. The mining of raw materials, shipping to process said raw materials for processing. More shipping of raw materials to the battery makers. More shipping to the car manufacturers. More shipping to the consumer. More shipping when the battery pack needs replacing. I didn’t even start with the electricity generation by most likely a coal fired plant. When ALL is added up, ICE emissions are drastically less over the life of a vehicle than an EV. EV’s “saving the planet” is a pipe dream. At least for the current technologies.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by BrianL99

Right now, if you can't "charge at home", the economic model changes drastically. There's no free lunch.

Since prices vary around the country, AAA has a nice Fuel Price page that gives the average price of gas and EV charging in each state. Use EV efficiency at 3-4 miles/kWh to compare cost/mile. Some states are more expensive than others but overall this matches the chatGPT traffic.

Not owning an EV myself, I had no idea that electricity from public chargers cost three to four times what we pay at home.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by Rocksnap

EV’s are NOT cleaner than ICE vehicles. Many studies have been accomplished. When you add up the start to finish, EV’s at far dirtier than ICE. The mining of raw materials, shipping to process said raw materials for processing. More shipping of raw materials to the battery makers. More shipping to the car manufacturers. More shipping to the consumer. More shipping when the battery pack needs replacing. I didn’t even start with the electricity generation by most likely a coal fired plant. When ALL is added up, ICE emissions are drastically less over the life of a vehicle than an EV. EV’s “saving the planet” is a pipe dream. At least for the current technologies.

Most (all?) those studies seem to envision a single EV being born in a mine and growing to adulthood through shipping materials around the world while an ICE vehicle simply springs into existence on a dealer's showroom floor. Realistically, ICE vehicles also begin in mines and require a lot of resources to machine the parts for the engine. I've not seen a realistic, apples-to-apples comparison.

I'm particularly interested in the fuel. The coal-fired plant is often mentioned but since only about 15% of electricity is generated from coal today, it is five times more likely that your electricity came from something other than coal. Regardless, it's the cost that interests me. From both the chatGPT table and what we actually pay, the gas to move a vehicle a given distance costs three times as much as the electricity used. Yes, there are gas taxes but there are also electricity fees and someone soon will point out the losses incurred in transporting electricity over a long distance. When everything is figured in, the difference must come down to the price of fuel used. So either electrical generation uses a very inexpensive fuel compared to gasoline or a power plant is much more fuel efficient than a car engine. My bet is the latter, that power plants are much more fuel efficient and therefore much cleaner than gasoline engines.

When ALL is added up, it isn't clear that EV and ICE engines have ever really been compared apples-to-apples and it sure isn't obvious that ICE vehicles have lower overall emissions.

[biker1]

There is a lot in here that is not true. Most obviously is electricity generation by coal. Coal represents about 16% of electricity generation in the US and has been dropping steadily, primarily because natural gas is a lower cost way to generate electricity, plus it is cleaner. This is hardly “by most likely a coal fired plant”. You can easily look this stuff up instead of posting nonsense to fit your bias. Buy an EV or don’t buy an EV; nobody cares.

Originally Posted by Rocksnap

EV’s are NOT cleaner than ICE vehicles. Many studies have been accomplished. When you add up the start to finish, EV’s at far dirtier than ICE. The mining of raw materials, shipping to process said raw materials for processing. More shipping of raw materials to the battery makers. More shipping to the car manufacturers. More shipping to the consumer. More shipping when the battery pack needs replacing. I didn’t even start with the electricity generation by most likely a coal fired plant. When ALL is added up, ICE emissions are drastically less over the life of a vehicle than an EV. EV’s “saving the planet” is a pipe dream. At least for the current technologies.